Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[djparkins]

It took me a while to catch up with all this extra information and in between times we've had Guildex and some things I had to deal with at the big railway in Loughborough plus an enjoyable time at Baker Street for a Hidden London tour. More to follow, eventually, about that. However here I am again.

Thanks Barry @Barry37. That's an interesting and quite believable bit of folklore. And to Dave @Dave Holt for the additional stuff. I certainly saw some Ivatt Class 4s at Eastleigh with fitted tablet catchers but I think that was after they'd left the M & GN. They were in pretty dismal condition.

Jon @John Palmer - such a lot of lovely stuff there. It's taken me a while to collect it all together in a form so I could file it against each photo but now it's done. Then Dave @Dave Holt and Martin @Martin Shaw with even more to add to it. Thank you all.

A view from the train with an unidentified locomotive but possibly a Standard Class 4 4-6-0 passing another Standard Class 4 4-6-0, 75072 near Midford on 9th June 1962. 75072 was a Bath Green Park loco and had been since June 1956 but it moved to Templecombe S & D in November 1962 where it was withdrawn in January 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in April the same year at T W Ward, Ringwood. (BR Database).

View attachment 223653

Another view from the same train at an unknown location.

View attachment 223649

4F 0-6-0 44417 with a Standard Class 4, probably 75071, standing in the middle road. The 4F was leaving Wincanton for Evercreech Junction (only that Station Totem doesn’t look as though it could possibly be Wincanton so I suspect it’s leaving Evercreech Junction for Wincanton) and had been allocated to Templecombe from at least 1948. It was withdrawn from there in November 1962. (SLS). The Railway Observer advises it went to Derby Works for disposal, completed in May 1963. 75071 was allocated to Bath Green Park in June 1956 and then Templecombe S & D in November 1962. It was in store in June, reinstated on the LMR in July and allocated to Croes Newydd in August, all in 1964. It went to Stoke in June 1967 and was withdrawn the following August. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s Long Marston at the end of February 1968.

View attachment 223650

I suspect this is a more likely location for the photo above. It’s Standard Class 5 73054 on the 9.55 Bournemouth West to Liverpool overtaking 4F 44417 at Evercreech Junction on 9th September 1962. For details on 44417 see my previous post. 73054 was allocated to Bath Green Park in April 1961, went in to store in August 1965 and was withdrawn at the end of the same month. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in October 1965. (BR Database).

View attachment 223651

Brian

Apologies for the late response but whilst at secondary school in Ringwood l recall seeing two BR 75xxx in Wards Scrapyard alongside Ringwood station as some of us took a short cut on the school cross-country run! This was about the time referred to in your notes. At that time there were still two freights a day into Ringwood. The morning one was steam hauled and the afternoon one tended to be a Class 33 working.

As an aside, we thought we’d stopped long enough observing the station and scrapyard to make our arrival time back at school look about right - but we were intercepted off-route by the PE teacher and got 40 minutes detention running around the school athletics track!

 

[LarryG]

Re. post # 3957; The coach behind the dirty Bulleid is an LMS ex Ambulance coach rebuilt into a 57' full brake.

 

[David B]

Tim’s S&D photos are an absolute joy, casting new light on a much-photographed line. I also love the photos from the Up Bristolian. The Reading General shot shows the train running through on the centre road, where it would normally have been travelling at around 80 mph. There was something special about running non-stop through Reading - partly because it was rare, and partly because of the intensity of the physical experience….galloping through Tilehurst and rounding the gentle left hand bend at Scours Lane at speed, then clattering over the points and diamonds at Reading West junction before leaning right to hammer over the multitude of crossings just outside the station, then twisting left as the heavily canted centre road curved through the station, hemmed in by the awnings on platforms 4 and 5, with the sound reverberating all around as the loco was opened up again for Paddington. Deep joy! And here is Tim leaning out of the window to enjoy the moment, and catching the down Cathedrals Express as it too made its way non-stop through Reading, potentially (although we’ll never know) at a closing speed of up to 160mph. I marvel at the technical skill involved - I know from leaning out at the same spot that the curvature gives you minimal time to be prepared for a fast train coming the other way (and I accept that both trains might have been checked through the station and therefore travelling more slowly). But then look at the sharpness of his photo from the same train passing Swindon, where again you could expect to be travelling at 80mph. Very impressive. I recall that the Bristolian coaching stock was equipped with Swindon’s brand new experimental B4 bogies in 1962, so perhaps the clarity of the photography was enhanced by the smoothness of the ride.

I was too young to travel on the original steam-hauled Bristolian in its pseudo-GWR finery, but Tim’s photos have brought back happy memories of being aboard the recreated up Bristolian in 2010 behind 5043, when we were given the main line all the way. And there I was, window hanging from Tilehurst to see whether we would be allowed to run non-stop through the old Reading station, whistle blowing. My joy on seeing a string of green signals stretching all the way ahead was matched only by the run through the station itself, with an HST in the process of being diverted onto the relief line so that our Castle-hauled express could surge past and ahead. We ran parallel with that HST all the way to Slough before leaving it behind. Thank you Brian and Tim for bringing those memories alive again.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Tim @timbowales for identifying that coach, and to Larry for yours as well - is the "dirty Bulleid" to which you refer the air smoothed one in my photo or one of Tim's, so I can add the info to the correct picture?

Thanks David @djparkins for that memory. Oh, how I despised cross country runs when at school. The avoidance of the worst of the distance was accompanied by similar punishments, especially when we were caught smoking. I can't remember where we put the ciggies as, to the best of my memory, the shorts had no pockets...

David @David B. That's super stuff and will be added piece meal to the photo. Thank you.

Class U 2-6-0 31802 on a local train to Salisbury crossing the S & D at Templecombe on 9th September 1962. This had been a Yeovil Town loco since February 1960 and was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). WHTS advise it was sold to Bird’s at Morriston who sold it on to Bird’s, Bynea although that looks more like an internal transfer. The LCGB record it as being seen intact on 13th December 1964 and BR Database that it was scrapped at some time the same month.



LMR Class 4F 44411 piloting the 7.40 am Templecombe Upper to Bournemouth down to the S & D on 9th September 1962. That’s probably a Standard Class 4 or 5 as the train engine. The 4F was a Bristol Barrow Road engine from at least 1948, then to Bath Green Park in May 1962 where it was withdrawn in September 1963. (SLS). It was unusually scrapped at Swindon Works (WHTS) in April 1964. (BR Database).



4F 44557 on an Evercreech Junction to Templecombe Upper freight at Templecombe on 9th September 1962. The loco’s home shed was Templecombe S & D from July 1957, moving to Carlisle Kingmoor in September 1962 where it was withdrawn almost immediately and went to Derby Works for disposal. (SLS). It was scrapped during the same month. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[AJC]

The train engine not quite visible in the shot of 44411 must be a Standard 4 - the smaller BR2 tender being the giveaway. I wouldn't swear to it being a 75xxx or 76xxx, however. Nice to see a BR horsebox immediately behind the 4F, presumably running empty given that it's at the rear of the train.

Adam

 

[3 LINK]

The train engine not quite visible in the shot of 44411 must be a Standard 4 - the smaller BR2 tender being the giveaway. I wouldn't swear to it being a 75xxx or 76xxx, however. Nice to see a BR horsebox immediately behind the 4F, presumably running empty given that it's at the rear of the train.

Adam

Perhaps it’s just me, but is the train engine the 4F ? Note the way the steam is trailing back along the train, unless it’s a very windy day .

Martyn.

 

[40057]

Perhaps it’s just me, but is the train engine the 4F ? Note the way the steam is trailing back along the train, unless it’s a very windy day .

Martyn.

I assume the 4F is at the back of the train but running forwards, towards the camera, for the short distance it was attached.

 

[Dave Holt]

Yes, the train is a south bound service, hauled by the BR Standard, which has gone up the spur to Templecombe Upper and is now being hauled backwards down to the Junction by the 4F. At the junction, the 4F will be uncoupled and the train carry on southwards, hauled by its train engine.
In the same vein, north bound services calling at the Upper Station had to have a pilot engine coupled to the rear to haul it backwards to the Upper Station. After uncoupling the pilot engine, the train could then continue north behind its train loco.
Quite a rigmarole. No wonder the main expresses bypassed Templecombe Upper. The Lower (S&D) station was served by few trains, at least in later days.
Dave.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I recall that the Bristolian coaching stock was equipped with Swindon’s brand new experimental B4 bogies in 1962,

Were the B4 bogies based on and developed from the SIG-EWI / SWS-60 Drehgestell used by the SBB?

SIG = Schweizerische Industrie-Gesellschaft
SWS = Schweizerische Wagons- und Aufzügefabrik AG Schlieren-Zürich

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Adam, @AJC for clarifying the probable train loco on img3213. That makes good sense to me. Also thanks for commenting on the horsebox.

Martin @3 LINK - that's a good question which I'm grateful to Dave @Dave Holt and @40057 for answering so succinctly.

...and as far as your question is concerned, Dave @Yorkshire Dave I couldn't possibly comment!

2251 Class 3216 on shed at Templecombe with 4F 44560 on 9th September 1962. The GW 0-6-0 had been at Templecombe S & D since October 1960 and was withdrawn from there in November 1963. (SLS). Thereafter it was sold to Bird’s, Morriston, Swansea (WHTS) and was scrapped in May 1964. (BR Database). The 4F has been on these pages previously, in post #3924. 44560 was allocated to Templecombe at the time and had been there since April 1960. It moved to Gloucester Horton Road in November 1964 and was reallocated there in June 1965 which suggests there may have been another allocation between those dates. It was withdrawn in August 1965 (SLS) and sold to Bird’s, Long Marston on 24th September the same year (WHTS) where it was scrapped in the following December.



2251 Class 3216 again and, according to the notes piloting a Bristol to Templecombe train and going down the bank but surely this is going up the bank as indicated by the signal. Also the train engine (possibly a BR Standard 4-6-0) appears to be on the back of the train which suggests it was from Bournemouth rather than Bristol and that the 0-6-0 had collected the train after reversal. This train is passing a 57XX 0-6-0PT, probably 4691 which is in post #3921 on a Baileygate to Templecombe train. To repeat the information about 4691: It was allocated to Templecombe S & D from February 1961 and withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Risca (WHTS) in September1965 (BR Database). That local train looks familiar so I believe all these photos were probably 8th or 9th June rather than September.



Two of S15 4-6-0 30845. Seen here it is on a Templecombe to Vauxhall milk train in Templecombe Yard on 9th September 1962. 30845 was allocated to Exmouth Junction in October 1946 and withdrawn in July 1963. (SLS). It was cut up at Eastleigh on 7th September 1963. (RO).



30845 again on 9th September 1962 approaching Templecombe on a milk train.



Brian

 

[Barry37]

Thank you, Adam, @AJC for clarifying the probable train loco on img3213. That makes good sense to me. Also thanks for commenting on the horsebox.

Martin @3 LINK - that's a good question which I'm grateful to Dave @Dave Holt and @40057 for answering so succinctly.

...and as far as your question is concerned, Dave @Yorkshire Dave I couldn't possibly comment!

2251 Class 3216 on shed at Templecombe with 4F 44560 on 9th September 1962. The GW 0-6-0 had been at Templecombe S & D since October 1960 and was withdrawn from there in November 1963. (SLS). Thereafter it was sold to Bird’s, Morriston, Swansea (WHTS) and was scrapped in May 1964. (BR Database). The 4F has been on these pages previously, in post #3924. 44560 was allocated to Templecombe at the time and had been there since April 1960. It moved to Gloucester Horton Road in November 1964 and was reallocated there in June 1965 which suggests there may have been another allocation between those dates. It was withdrawn in August 1965 (SLS) and sold to Bird’s, Long Marston on 24th September the same year (WHTS) where it was scrapped in the following December.

View attachment 224051

2251 Class 3216 again and, according to the notes piloting a Bristol to Templecombe train and going down the bank but surely this is going up the bank as indicated by the signal. Also the train engine (possibly a BR Standard 4-6-0) appears to be on the back of the train which suggests it was from Bournemouth rather than Bristol and that the 0-6-0 had collected the train after reversal. This train is passing a 57XX 0-6-0PT, probably 4691 which is in post #3921 on a Baileygate to Templecombe train. To repeat the information about 4691: It was allocated to Templecombe S & D from February 1961 and withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Risca (WHTS) in September1965 (BR Database). That local train looks familiar so I believe all these photos were probably 8th or 9th June rather than September.

View attachment 224052

Two of S15 4-6-0 30845. Seen here it is on a Templecombe to Vauxhall milk train in Templecombe Yard on 9th September 1962. 30845 was allocated to Exmouth Junction in October 1946 and withdrawn in July 1963. (SLS). It was cut up at Eastleigh on 7th September 1963. (RO).

View attachment 224053

30845 again on 9th September 1962 approaching Templecombe on a milk train.

View attachment 224054

Brian

in the first photo of 30845, the two vans on the right appear to be LMS ones. The first one behind the loco, seems to be a D1814 van from 1933, which was, for an LMS design, a fairly rare type, as only 999 were built, and horizontal planks without external ironwork were not the usual way things were done. They had short handbrake levers with the rack to the left of the RH axlebox.
The partly-visible van is probably a D1830 (or the closely-related D1808/D1812), built between 1930 and 1933. The number may be M180494.
In the second photo, the brake van is halfway along the train, before a van and about ten milk tanks, and seems to be without a rear brake van. The brake van appears to be an LMS D1657, built 1927-31. Some had through vac. pipes from new, and others had them fitted later: presumably this van was one of those, otherwise the back half of the train is unbraked.

 

[dibateg]

Sorry - I'm late to the party again Brian.

I was interested in the GC line photos in posts 3789 and 3796

46106 with the Gresley coaches - including an artic pair. I would have said those coaches are unusual on that service, as by that time the majority of the Marylebone - Nottingham semi fasts were formed of Mark 1 coaches - with some ex LMS strengtheners at times. Some sort of special perhaps?

73157 is carrying a stopping train head code - the train is formed of ex LMS non-corridor stock, but what is that curious tank wagon at the head of the train? I've never seen another photograph of a formation of that nauture on that line.

Thanks for the great work Brian - its always fascinating to read the collective knowledge that comes from the group.

The S&D ones are of great interest as I am on holiday in Bath at the moment!

Regards
Tony

 

[John Palmer]

I'll hazard a guess that picture #3213 showing the 7.40 Templecombe-Bournemouth being piloted down to No.2 Junction was taken just prior to #3215 in post #3924, confirming that the train was being hauled by a Standard Class 4 mogul, no doubt either from Bournemouth Central or Eastleigh shed. From memory, in the 1950s Eastleigh had an S&D diagram to cover to which a Standard 4 mogul would usually be assigned, often not one of Eastleigh's best. On occasion failure of the allocated locomotive would result in a T9 standing in.

The two pictures of 30845 were evidently taken in bright sunshine but with long shadows. This is consistent with a time frame between 8/0 and 9/0 in June (rather than September), in anticipation of a Templecombe departure for London at or shortly after 9/0. This must have been a well-established arrangement, as Robert Barnard Way, writing in 1937, describes such a milk train working departing Templecombe promptly at 9/0, a pattern that persisted in the post-war years. Templecombe featured prominently in milk train operations as the point at which traffic from the various milk factories located on the S&D converged with a view to onward transit to London on this 9/0 train. We've already seen pictures here of the workings to the Cow & Gate factory at Bailey Gate and back, leaving Templecombe around 3/30 and arriving back there at around 6/0. Another substantial Cow & Gate factory was built at Wincanton in the early 1930s, with a rail connection from the outset, but the longest established milk factory served by the S&D was the Wilts United Dairies facility built in 1909 at Bason Bridge, just east of Highbridge. The afternoon 'milkie' from the Evercreech-Highbridge branch was a another S&D institution, butwas latterly diverted from its connection at Templecombe and instead despatched northward via the ex-Great Western line to Bristol. The connection to the Bason Bridge factory survived 1966 closure of the bulk of the S&D system, its eradication ultimately becoming inevitable when the M5 was constructed and severed its route.

 

[oldravendale]

I'll not get to this tomorrow and will respond to the wonderful information later but having read your post, John @John Palmer felt I had to comment on just one aspect, and that's the date of these photos. I'm now convinced that the pictures identified as 9th September are, in fact, 9th June. I've looked again at Tim's notes and there is no doubt that film 62 which ends on shots of the S & D is identified as 8th June 1962 and the next film, 63, is identified quite clearly as 9th September 1962. Film 64 which we've yet to see is dated 15th June 1962. We've had previous evidence of data being a bit jumbled which I put down to the records being made some time after the event but I now suspect that Tim may have been dyslexic to some degree. I'll have a word with his wife to see if she noticed anything when I next see her.

Tim was a very long time - 50 years or so- active supporter of the GCR at Loughborough and regularly ran the Booking Office at Quorn Station. (At the graveside where I was honoured to give the eulogy I accused him of actually being late for his own funeral - Tim was never on time for anything), and later the Station Master for Quorn advised that Tim's accounting was "original", but he always managed to make the books balance somehow. During our 50 year association I never saw potential dyslexia but now suspect that may have been an unrecognised characteristic.

Thanks John. I think you've pulled a little ghost out of the shadows and I'll tell Tim about that late this evening. He'll smile.

Brian

 

[readingtype]

Were the B4 bogies based on and developed from the SIG-EWI / SWS-60 Drehgestell used by the SBB?

SIG = Schweizerische Industrie-Gesellschaft
SWS = Schweizerische Wagons- und Aufzügefabrik AG Schlieren-Zürich

I seem to remember that the book referred to in this post from the other place has information that answers your question definitively. Sorry that I cannot remember the details. I think we're in the realms of 'inspiration'. Pot-stirring thought: if Swindon was involved then perhaps the design of the V200 Warship bogie had kindled greater interest in suspension designs outside the rather conservative conventions of the British railway engineering school? The Western hid its radicalism well for most of the time, as far as I can tell. But then sometimes it showed...

Ben

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Barry @Barry37 for the new (to me) info about the train behind 30845. That's excellent stuff again.

Tony @dibateg - how good to hear from you and you're not too late at all! I just love pulling out all this new data which never ceases to amaze me. As for that tank wagon I've really no idea. Perhaps one of our wagon specialists will put us out of our misery.

John @John Palmer. As I said a bit earlier I'm becoming more convince, photo by photo, that the dates alleged to be 9th September are actually 9th June, but I'll dwell on that no further. However your info on those workings is really helpful in bringing life to the pictures so thanks again.

Finally Ben @readingtype. I wish I could join in that conversation but it's beyond my understanding so I'll leave that with you and Dave @Yorkshire Dave.

Original Battle of Britain 34068 Kenley was previously in post #3284. Here it’s entering the station area at Templecombe on 9th September 1962, now agreed to actually be 9th June 1962 with a freight. Although ostensibly built as mixed traffic engines it was always unusual to see them on freight duties. The loco was allocated to Stewarts Lane from December 1949 and moved to Salisbury in May 1961 where it was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported that it arrived at Eastleigh Works in February 1964 and was cut up there week ending 21st March 1964.



2251 0-6-0 3215 on arrival at Templecombe Upper with the 6.18 Bournemouth West to Templecombe Upper train right next to the signal box on 9th June 1962. However, this is another that doesn’t seem right. Surely the train would have reversed at Templecombe S & D and travelled up to the bay platform. Perhaps John @John Palmer can enlighten me. In any event the loco was on the Templecombe S & D allocation and was withdrawn from there in February 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s. Newport, in January 1964.



Standard Class 4 2-6-0 76027 described as on the link line to Templecombe Upper from Bath on 9th June 1962 – however I believe the signal in the “off” position suggests that the train is travelling down the bank – loco going backwards so there’s probably a pilot on the other end – in order to reach the S & D and reverse towards Bournemouth West. 76027 was a Bournemouth engine from March 1962 and was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1966 at Cohen’s, Morriston. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[daifly]

The steam patterns in the last photo (of 76027) suggest that it is stationary.

Dave

 

[AJC]

Nice row of very assorted minerals with 76027 in the background. From left, a BR 1/108, what I think is an SR dia. 1400 (10' wheelbase); what might be an ex-MoWT welded steel mineral (bottom doors, independent brakes); another 1/108 (the only tatty one, note), one more, and a second without top flap doors, but with a join showing that it's been partially replated. Then a selection of RCH type wooden minerals, all presumably for loco coal. Quite a variety.

Adam

 

[Barry37]

Nice row of very assorted minerals with 76027 in the background. From left, a BR 1/108, what I think is an SR dia. 1400 (10' wheelbase); what might be an ex-MoWT welded steel mineral (bottom doors, independent brakes); another 1/108 (the only tatty one, note), one more, and a second without top flap doors, but with a join showing that it's been partially replated. Then a selection of RCH type wooden minerals, all presumably for loco coal. Quite a variety.

Adam

The SR wagon is one of the 10' wb D1377 wagons, S 38105, built in late 1939. It has "1947" style axle guards, which are solid up the sides, with a round hole in the left or right side next to the axlebox (i.e. nearest the headstock).
It's also one of the final batch of 250 SR 8 planks, which introduced to the SR, somewhat belatedly, the "trader's door" with tapered inside top of the door and tilted bottom plank, to make sack track movement easier. The bottom two end planks have been replaced by steel channel, and it seems to have 3-hole wheels. To reduce use of steel in wartime, the corner plates only have one bolt per plank, instead of two; and the headstocks have shorter squared ends.
There's a photo on page 37 of the OPC Southern Wagons Book Vol.4.

 

[AJC]

The SR wagon is one of the 10' wb D1377 wagons, S 38105, built in late 1939. It has "1947" style axle guards, which are solid up the sides, with a round hole in the left or right side next to the axlebox (i.e. nearest the headstock).
It's also one of the final batch of 250 SR 8 planks, which introduced to the SR, somewhat belatedly, the "trader's door" with tapered inside top of the door and tilted bottom plank, to make sack track movement easier. The bottom two end planks have been replaced by steel channel, and it seems to have 3-hole wheels. To reduce use of steel in wartime, the corner plates only have one bolt per plank, instead of two; and the headstocks have shorter squared ends.
There's a photo on page 37 of the OPC Southern Wagons Book Vol.4.

This is what I get from trying to do these things off the top of my head! Thank you, Barry.

Adam