Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[John Duffy]

The two concrete towers in the background of the images from Thornton are of the winding towers at Rothes colliery. This was developed by the NCB as one of its "super-pits" with a planned output of 5,000 tons of coal per day. The £12m pit was beset with problems from the start, especially with the inflow of water. It was also the first pit to be visited below ground by a monarch. Queen Elizabeth visited in 1958.

The whole complex was considered ultra-modern at the time and was complimented by the development of one of BR's new hump yards. Thornton Marshalling Yard | Canmore
The original engine shed - which was located inside the triangular junction from which it got its name - was by this time replaced with a much larger and more modern facility directly opposite Rothes colliery.

John

 

[John Duffy]

V2 60937 on a southbound fitted freight at Thornton on 11th September 1961. It had been a St Margarets engine since November 1958 and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Inverurie Works in November 1963. (BR Database).

View attachment 201714

This looks like an Up Fish. Class 3 with insulated van. Usually in the hands of a V2 or A2. Considered to be the hardest jobs in the link, they were effectively express passenger times but without the station stops.

j

 

[Lyndhurstman]

I'm not sure, but that open Mineral behind the J84 in #2720 might have a pressed steel side door? (my Potential Intrigue Detector is very sensitive, apparently - and I know it can pick up spurious inputs as a result )

Cheers

Jan

 

[Arun Sharma]

The suitcase bears a remarkable resemblence to the suitcases issued to soldiers [prior to us swapping them for green canvas holdalls in the mid '70s]. Perhaps there was a soldier also a railway enthusiast/spotter lurking on the platform.

 

[Osgood]

I'm not sure, but that open Mineral behind the J84 in #2720 might have a pressed steel side door? (my Potential Intrigue Detector is very sensitive, apparently - and I know it can pick up spurious inputs as a result )

Cheers

Jan

I'm sure you are correct about the pressed steel door.
However your reference to J84 has got me intrigued......

 

[simond]

The suitcase bears a remarkable resemblence to the suitcases issued to soldiers [prior to us swapping them for green canvas holdalls] in the mid '70s. Perhaps there was a soldier also a railway enthusiast/spotter lurking on the platform.

such an item on a platform today would recieve the attentions of the blue light brigade rather promptly, I suspect.

 

[John Duffy]

Another J36, 65319 on a freight at Leuchars Junction Station on 11th September 1961. BR Database confirms it was at Dundee Tay Bridge in 1948. SLS advises it was transferred to Bathgate in January 1966 and St Margarets in September the same year before withdrawal later the same month. It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, in December 1966.

Is that Tim's case on the platform, I wonder?

View attachment 201913

This is the down bay, which was used until 1956 for direct trains to Tayport, along the original Edinburgh & Northern Railway route. By '61 this was cut back to the Old Station yard and the line to RAF base.

65319 was the regular Leuchars Pilot. A job that it held for many years.

J

 

[MarkR]

"Leuchars pilot", how appropriate!

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, John, for the info about Thornton Junction and the local pit. That builds up a picture of the traffic flows in the area for sure. Also for your suggestion regarding the train hauled by 60937. That's another traffic source! The info about the station pilot too. All to be added to the photos.

Jan. Thanks for your suggestion about that wagon and also Tony for the confirmation.

Arun. I'd put money on that suitcase being Tim's. He was certainly doing National Service around this time and was based at Brighton which he always considered fortunate as he was close to the shed and works.

A4 60004 William Whitelaw and an unidentified A3 in Haymarket Shed Yard on 10th September 1961. BR Database advises this loco to have been a resident of Haymarket since at least 1948 and still there in 1961. SLS confirms a move to Aberdeen Ferryhill in July 1962, to St Margarets in October and back to Aberdeen in July 1963. It was withdrawn in July 1966 and was scrapped at Motherwell Machinery and Scrap at Wishaw in October the same year (BR Database).



A2 60532 Blue Peter on the turntable at Haymarket Shed on 10th September 1961. It was allocated to Aberdeen Ferryhill in January 1951 and was transferred to Dundee Tay Bridge in July 1961, withdrawn in December 1966 (SLS) and was sold in to preservation in August 1968. (BR Database).



J88 0-6-0T 68338 and A1 60152 Holyrood in store at Haymarket Shed on 10th September 1961. 68338 was a St Margarets engine and had been since at least 1948. (BR Database). It was almost certainly in store as the SLS report it in store on 1st July 1961 and withdrawn in September. It was scrapped at Inverurie Works by the end of March 1962. 60152, however, was still very much on the active list having been allocated to Haymarket in July 1953, recorded in store at Haymarket in April 1962 (Rail UK) and not moving to St Margarets until September 1963. It was reallocated to York North in September 1964 and withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at J Cashmore, Great Bridge, in August 1965. (BR Database and Rail UK). Note in the second picture the two A4s in the same line of locos.

Yeadon has 68338 wdn on 15/9/61 and cut up at Inverurie on the 16/3/62. RCTS green book notes it as the regular shunt engine at St Leonards throughout its working life which was always at St Margarets. It is an unlikely turn from Haymarket so it probably was in store having been made redundant by a 350hp diesel shunter.






A sparkling A4 60009 Union of South Arica at Haymarket Shed on 10th September 1961. It had been a Haymarket engine for many years but moved to Aberdeen Ferryhill in May 1962 for use on the 3 hour expresses from Aberdeen to Glasgow. It was withdrawn at the beginning of June 1963 moving in to preservation as well recorded elsewhere.



Four disappointingly poor pictures of an unidentified J88 0-6-0T passing Haymarket Shed, an unidentified V2, an 0-6-0, possibly a J36 and double headed BR Standard 2-6-4 tanks, all on 10th September 1961.

The loco in #2403 is a J88 not 83, and is in fact 68335 which unsurprisingly was a Haymarket engine at the time. By the date of the photo there were only seven J88s still in traffic and only one of them was vacuum fitted so the identity is not dificult. The other so fitted was 68332 which was withdrawn in May 1960, both were equipped with vacuum brakes early in nationalisation at Thornton for the John Haig whisky traffic at Markinch, which fortuitously neatly keeps it all well on thread.

Yeadon has 68338 wdn on 15/9/61 and cut up at Inverurie on the 16/3/62. RCTS green book notes it as the regular shunt engine at St Leonards throughout its working life which was always at St Margarets. It is an unlikely turn from Haymarket so it probably was in store having been made redundant by a 350hp diesel shunter.

(For completion of the details about 68335: It had been a Haymarket engine since December 1959, went to Dawsholm in May 1962 after a period of storage at Bathgate in April 1962 and was withdrawn from Dawsholm in the following October. (SLS). It was disposed of at Inverurie Works by the end of April 1963. (Rail UK).)

The loco in #2406 looks rather like a J36, the 35/37s had a much bigger boiler. It is possible that it's 65243 Maude herself being the Haymarket pet and used on the South Queensferry goods once a day, not a particulalry onerous duty even for a heavily rebuilt 1st WW veteran.

The V2 is heading west on the north bound roads out of Edinburgh, heading over the Forth Bridge. The train is showing a class 3 head code, so it looks like an empty coaching stock move. Dundee or Perth seem the most likely destinations.

The double headed 2-6-4T's will be coming off the link to Princess Street Station. I suspect the photo has been taken at the extreme end of Haymarket depot with the bridge over Roseburn Street visible. In the background is the North British Distillery, a grain distillery capable of producing 10 bottles a second. You wont have tasted it though as it is used in blends such as Famous Grouse, J&B and Johnnie Walker Black Label.









Brian

 

[John Duffy]

The double headed 2-6-4T's will be coming off the link to Princess Street Station. I suspect the photo has been taken at the extreme end of Haymarket depot with the bridge over Roseburn Street visible. In the background is the North British Distillery, a grain distillery capable of producing 10 bottles a second. You wont have tasted it though as it is used in blends such as Famous Grouse, J&B and Johnnie Walker Black Label.

The V2 is heading west on the north bound roads out of Edinburgh, heading over the Forth Bridge. The train is showing a class 3 head code, so it looks like an empty coaching stock move. Dundee or Perth seem the most likely destinations.

 

[oldravendale]

Interesting, John, particularly as I had a tot of NB on Saturday night. North British occasionally comes onto the market as single source Grain Whisky through independent bottlers, like Thompson Bros. That bottle was 30 years old and cost a bit over £100. It's a rare and well reviewed bottle, with very few available sourced from a single cask. Available only by ballot.

It was absolutely delicious!

Brian

 

[John Duffy]

Interesting, John, particularly as I had a tot of NB on Saturday night. North British occasionally comes onto the market as single source Grain Whisky through independent bottlers, like Thompson Bros. That bottle was 30 years old and cost a bit over £100. It's a rare and well reviewed bottle, with very few available sourced from a single cask. Available only by ballot.

It was absolutely delicious!

Brian

Ouch, that is expensive. The owners certainly don't bottle it, so I suppose if the only way to get hold of any is through third parties, it will add a good chunk to the price.

J

 

[oldravendale]

Agreed, John, but the point with single malts is that, even from the same distillery each barrel should be subtly different and not homogenised. There are perfectly good, regular blended scotches which are perfectly drinkable but lack the character of a real craft produced single malt. I've visited a few independent distillers and a few by Diageo and the latter are always trying to produce a scotch which matches their previous batches. It seems to me that the independents are those which expect and celebrate the differences between barrels.

A bit off piste here, though. If we want a Scotch discussion let's open a new thread.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Oh. Just realised it's still my thread. Let's keep it on here.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Adding to John's comments, the loco in #2403 is a J88 not 83, and is in fact 68335 which unsurprisingly was a Haymarket engine at the time. By the date of the photo there were only seven J88s still in traffic and only one of them was vacuum fitted so the identity is not dificult. The other so fitted was 68332 which was withdrawn in May 1960, both were equipped with vacuum brakes early in nationalisation at Thornton for the John Haig whisky traffic at Markinch, which fortuitously neatly keeps it all well on thread.

The loco in #2406 looks rather like a J36, the 35/37s had a much bigger boiler. It is possible that it's 65243 Maude herself being the Haymarket pet and used on the South Queensferry goods once a day, not a particulalry onerous duty even for a heavily rebuilt 1st WW veteran.
Martin

 

[John Duffy]

Adding to John's comments, the loco in #2403 is a J88 not 83, and the loco in #2406 looks rather like a J36, the 35/37s had a much bigger boiler. It is possible that it's Maude herself being the Haymarket pet.
Martin

Yes, definitely a J88 and a J36.

 

[JimG]

Agreed, John, but the point with single malts is that, even from the same distillery each barrel should be subtly different and not homogenised. There are perfectly good, regular blended scotches which are perfectly drinkable but lack the character of a real craft produced single malt. I've visited a few independent distillers and a few by Diageo and the latter are always trying to produce a scotch which matches their previous batches. It seems to me that the independents are those which expect and celebrate the differences between barrels.

I remember when working in the local distillery office as an office boy during the school holidays that one of the directors - a Mr. Scott - was the "nose" for Ballantines whisky. The blend was mixed to his specification and he was training a much younger Alistair Cunningham to take over when he retired. The distillery in Dumbarton was a very large grain whisky producer but it blended with the output of its own Dumbarton malt distillery and several other malt distilleries. From this distance in time I think I remember that there was a fair use of Speyside malts from seeing the correspondence in the mailing desk.

Railway content - the distillery had a rail connection with the North British yard in Dumbarton and its locomotive was a large Fordson tractor with buffer beams.

Jim.

 

[Dave Holt]

Wow. Just look at the coal load on 60009. That's definitely out of gauge.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Considering they are such disappointing pictures I'm grateful to John and Martin for providing so much information, now added to the appropriate photos. I'd not noticed the coal load on 60009 either, Dave. Certainly looks a bit tall and not particularly decent fuel either judging by the size.

Moving on to arguably more important matters.....

A2 60530 Sayajirao on an Aberdeen to Edinburgh train passing Haymarket pn 10th September 1961. The loco had been allocated to Haymarket since January 1950 but moved to St Margarets in October 1961, Polmadie in October 1963 and finally Dundee Tay Bridge in October 1964. It was withdrawn in November 1966 (SLS) and went to Motherwell Machinery and Scrap at Wishaw where it was broken up by the end of March 1967. (Rail UK). There's also reference to it being involved in an accident at Longniddy in December 1953 but I've not investigated that incident any further.

Re 60530, she was involved in the accident at Longniddry on the 17th Dec 1953. A set of Decauville points became dislodged from a wagon in a down goods train which obstructed the up line. 60530 was hauling the Waverley - Kings X parcels and hit the obstruction at around 60 mph. There followed a major derailment in which the fireman was sadly killed. Surprisingly the MoT report does not identify the loco beyond it being a class 7 pacific, the MLS has some newsreel footage that even 70 years on is a bit grim. The report is on the Railways Archive website if your interested, much is about how well the load was roped, another skill that has all but disappeared.

I saw the loco in Darlington Works on 3rd October 1964 when it was in for a light casual. It arrived on 1st September and departed on 10th October.

Sayajirao is on the Dundee lines and heading into Waverley on the Up line! She would have earlier worked to Dundee and changed engines at Tay Bridge station. The loco going onto (probably) Dundee West rather than TB shed for turning and lay over, before heading back to Edinburgh, again changing engines in Dundee. Engine changing at Dundee was a long standing practice that goes back to the introduction of drivers being allocated their own engines by Haymarket. This kept locos and crews together and within the maximum working hours in a shift. The introduction of this system (long gone by the time of these photos, but habits stick) is discussed in Norman McKillop's (Toram Beg) book Enginemen Elite which has just been reprinted and is well worth a read.

This is geographically correct however the S&T always called it the up (to Edinburgh) and down (to Glasgow) everywhere I know about on the E&G, perhaps it changed at Saughton Junc where the two routes diverged. I do know the the Fife and Glasgow lines were referred to as the North and South lines

I am trying to find the reference I have but am struggling. It was apparently a hangover from when the Caledonian had running powers at various parts of the line, meaning that their trains would be referred to as the opposite of NB trains running on the same stretch of track. I'm sure the NB would consider it their infrastructure and use Up to Edinburgh. I should probably stop considering the NB to be wrong just because of their name!



A1 Pacific 60162 Saint Johnstoun on a northbound parcels train passing Haymarket on 10th September 1961. This had been allocated to Haymarket since new in 1949 and moved to St Margarets in September 1963 where it was withdrawn a month later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Inverurie Works in February 1964. (BR Database).

Saint Johnstoun is heading west on the NB route to Glasgow and passing the Edinburgh cleansing department facility, opposite Haymarket. This route is not Up and Down for direction, but East and West.



Three now of J83 0-6-0T 68481 and A2 60526 Sugar Palm in Haymarket Yard on 10th September 1961. 68481 had been at Haymarket since at least 1948 and was withdrawn from there in February 1962. (BR Database). It was scrapped at Arnott Young, Carmyle, in August 1963 after a period in storage at Bathgate during July 1963. (Rail UK).

60526 had been a York North engine since October 1948 and was withdrawn in November 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in April 1963.







Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Re 60530, she was involved in the accident at Longniddry on the 17th Dec 1953. A set of Decauville points became dislodged from a wagon in a down goods train which obstructed the up line. 60530 was hauling the Waverley - Kings X parcels and hit the obstruction at around 60 mph. There followed a major derailment in which the fireman was sadly killed. Surprisingly the MoT report does not identify the loco beyond it being a class 7 pacific, the MLS has some newsreel footage that even 70 years on is a bit grim. The report is on the Railways Archive website if your interested, much is about how well the load was roped, another skill that has all but disappeared. I don't think we always realise thankfully how much safer train travel is today.
Martin