Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you, Mick, for that amazing bit of work to give us a date window. I actually wasn't serious or expecting a result when I asked for a date! I'll need to go back to the negatives to establish whether the one of the 47/4 was attached to a neg with a "known" (or at least suggested) date but the 1980s is entirely plausible until I do so.
Colin - I remember the original WCs and BBs like that as well. In fact I photographed them at Nine Elms even on the last day of Southern steam. I'm really glad we have a few in preservation.
I suspect, Simon, that you're the only person on this forum who'd know that!
An unidentified Fairburn 2-6-4T at Headstone Lane in May 1963.
Rebuilt Patriot 45523, Bangor, at Headstone Lane in May 1963. It was a Willesden engine at the time, it's final shed, from where it was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works by the end of March the same year. (Rail UK).
An unidentified Class 2 2-6-0 at Headstone Lane in May 1963.
A4 60006 Sir Ralph Wedgwood at the buffer stops in Kings Cross Station in May 1963. It was based at Kings Cross Shed until June 1963 and carries the appropriate shed plate in this view. It went to New England in June the same year and ended up at Aberdeen Ferryhill in May 1964 by way of St Margarets. It was used very successfully on the 3 hour expresses from Aberdeen to Glasgow. It was withdrawn from Aberdeen in September 1965. (SLS & BR Database). It was scrapped at Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Wishaw during October 1966. (BR Database).
Brian
Colin - I remember the original WCs and BBs like that as well. In fact I photographed them at Nine Elms even on the last day of Southern steam. I'm really glad we have a few in preservation.
I suspect, Simon, that you're the only person on this forum who'd know that!
An unidentified Fairburn 2-6-4T at Headstone Lane in May 1963.
Rebuilt Patriot 45523, Bangor, at Headstone Lane in May 1963. It was a Willesden engine at the time, it's final shed, from where it was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works by the end of March the same year. (Rail UK).
An unidentified Class 2 2-6-0 at Headstone Lane in May 1963.
A4 60006 Sir Ralph Wedgwood at the buffer stops in Kings Cross Station in May 1963. It was based at Kings Cross Shed until June 1963 and carries the appropriate shed plate in this view. It went to New England in June the same year and ended up at Aberdeen Ferryhill in May 1964 by way of St Margarets. It was used very successfully on the 3 hour expresses from Aberdeen to Glasgow. It was withdrawn from Aberdeen in September 1965. (SLS & BR Database). It was scrapped at Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Wishaw during October 1966. (BR Database).
Brian
Last edited:
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
An unidentified Fairburn 2-6-4T at North Wembley in May 1963.
Rebuilt Patriot 45523, Bangor, at North Wembley in May 1963. It was a Willesden engine at the time, it's final shed, from where it was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works by the end of March the same year. (Rail UK).
An unidentified Class 2 2-6-0 at North Wembley in May 1963.
I have my doubts about these three being taken at North Wembley as the surrounding area is too open. I'd categorically state these were taken at Headstone Lane. The footbridge in the background of photos 1 and 3 leads from Chantry Place.
OS 1:1,250/1:2,500 1944-1972 extract from NLS below to show the location although the signal gantry shown on the map is missing. Could well be this map extract is post OHLE or the gantry removed as part of the OHLE before the photo was taken.
Also note the half yellow front of the class 501 on the right heading north towards Watford Jct via Watford High St. Six years since their introduction as shown in post #85 in An Unusual Collection thread.
This is crop from a 2018 image of Headstone Lane and the bridge on the right is the same as the one photographed by Tim with the other part of the bridge on the left being rebuilt during the 1960s OHLE. Full image here - copyright Stephen McKay from Geograph.
Last edited:
76043
Western Thunderer
Nice tidy parcels train in post #2117, is the second vehicle an LMS 6 -wheel ex-fish van?
Also the Fairburn tank shot in #2122 has a full brake behind the loco, does this indicate lots of parcels traffic? I've not seen a full brake on a stopping passenger train of this sort before.
Tony
Also the Fairburn tank shot in #2122 has a full brake behind the loco, does this indicate lots of parcels traffic? I've not seen a full brake on a stopping passenger train of this sort before.
Tony
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Rebuilt Patriot 45523, Bangor, at North Wembley in May 1963. It was a Willesden engine at the time, it's final shed, from where it was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works by the end of March the same year. (Rail UK).
The second coach behind the rebuilt Patriot appears to be of Gresley origin.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Dave - I'm in your debt regarding the location of those photos. I'd like to claim it as a deliberate mistake as I realised that the location couldn't be North Wembley when I processed them but never left myself a note to research further. The ID on the neg sleeves is certainly for North Wembley but as is entirely possible and in fact normal with this collection sometimes the descriptions are generic for a particular trip. The photo titles on the WT descriptions have been duly edited... Thanks also for your note about the rolling stock behind the Patriot.
Tony - both are interesting comments to which I have no answer. There may be a guru out there who can help us though.
Larry. It's never too late to add comments to any of these photos and that one in Manchester has created more than most. Your comments are now attached to the details.
Here's a case in point as far as the labelling of the pictures is concerned. This is described as North Wembley but it's a long way (relatively) north. I'm confident this is Tring. Tring Station is just the other side of the bridge. There's no date attached to this but I reckon we can take a punt at summer mid-sixties.
Again described as North Wembley and this could be. It may equally be South Kenton. I'm guessing the date as the mid-1960s again. It's certainly not Tring as the 4-rail DC lines are to the front of the image. Black 5 44773 travelling north on the fast lines. It had been an Edge Hill engine since 1956 and was withdrawn from there in December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen's at Kettering in May 1968. (BR Database).
This is 9F 92053 probably at North Wembley and probably in the mid 1960s (but not after 1966 - see below), again with the DC lines in the foreground. The notice just above and forward of the loco chimney reads "Barker & Herbert" but I can find no reference to them on line either at Wembley or at Kenton. That's probably not surprising at a distance of sixty years or so! 92053 was at Toton from September 1962 until March 1965 when it moved to Warrington Dallam. It was withdrawn from there in February 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at W George, Station Steel, Wath in July the same year.
Brian
Tony - both are interesting comments to which I have no answer. There may be a guru out there who can help us though.
Larry. It's never too late to add comments to any of these photos and that one in Manchester has created more than most. Your comments are now attached to the details.
Here's a case in point as far as the labelling of the pictures is concerned. This is described as North Wembley but it's a long way (relatively) north. I'm confident this is Tring. Tring Station is just the other side of the bridge. There's no date attached to this but I reckon we can take a punt at summer mid-sixties.
Again described as North Wembley and this could be. It may equally be South Kenton. I'm guessing the date as the mid-1960s again. It's certainly not Tring as the 4-rail DC lines are to the front of the image. Black 5 44773 travelling north on the fast lines. It had been an Edge Hill engine since 1956 and was withdrawn from there in December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen's at Kettering in May 1968. (BR Database).
This is 9F 92053 probably at North Wembley and probably in the mid 1960s (but not after 1966 - see below), again with the DC lines in the foreground. The notice just above and forward of the loco chimney reads "Barker & Herbert" but I can find no reference to them on line either at Wembley or at Kenton. That's probably not surprising at a distance of sixty years or so! 92053 was at Toton from September 1962 until March 1965 when it moved to Warrington Dallam. It was withdrawn from there in February 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at W George, Station Steel, Wath in July the same year.
Brian
Attachments
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Definitely Tring but very early rather than mid 1960s - the station masters house is still standing and there is no apparent evidence of the 25kV overhead electrification works in the photo. The first 25kV electric trains started running from Euston on 12 November 1965. The white building on the bridge was the station masters house and the white building to the right behind the trees is the old Royal Hotel which I understand has been converted to apartments.
The other two I can agree with North Wembley - in fact just south of the station. I've cropped a section from the black V photo and there is a bridge crossing the lines in the background which I would say is the ex-GC Neasden Jct - South Ruislip line. Same time frame as Tring above as there are no apparent 25kV overhead electrification works visible.
On the OS 1:1,250/1:2,500 1944-1972 NLS extract below I've highlighted in red North Wembley Station (top) and the ex-GC Neasden Jct - South Ruislip line (bottom). The photo is taken in the blue area which I've enlarged.
The motley collection of asbestos and corrugated iron buildings in the 9F photo I suspect belongs to the Public Works Contractor's Yard (Barker & Herbert?). In the black V photo there is a line of lamp posts on the right which I would assume are on the footpath between the allotment gardens and the railway.
Last edited:
mickoo
Western Thunderer
As Dave (Yorkshire) says this is definitely Tring, the date is no later than summer 62.
OHLE arrived here in summer 63, I've photos of portals but no fittings (droppers, insulators etc in summer 63). In Tims photos the trees still have leaves so it's not winter, could be spring 63 but then there should be more pre work for OHLE, troughing, gantry footings etc.
There has been some prep work as new drains have been installed so my best guess is summer/autumn 62 or earlier if drainage work was carried out years ahead of OHLE, I suspect not.
I'd love a high rez copy of that image, I've a folder with infrastructure pictures from Euston to Rugby focusing on late 50's-60's and electrification etc.
OHLE arrived here in summer 63, I've photos of portals but no fittings (droppers, insulators etc in summer 63). In Tims photos the trees still have leaves so it's not winter, could be spring 63 but then there should be more pre work for OHLE, troughing, gantry footings etc.
There has been some prep work as new drains have been installed so my best guess is summer/autumn 62 or earlier if drainage work was carried out years ahead of OHLE, I suspect not.
I'd love a high rez copy of that image, I've a folder with infrastructure pictures from Euston to Rugby focusing on late 50's-60's and electrification etc.
AJC
Western Thunderer
Yes, it's one of these: LMS Fish vans & stores vans ZRV. Full brakes on passenger trains weren't all that unusual (in general, I can't speak for the southern end of the WCML in particular).
Adam
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
I agree with Mick, apart from no OHLE there are no real signs of resignalling and Watford PSB opened in July 64 so a year earlier I would expect some activity on that front. I think the location of the picture is rather given away by the signalbox nameboard.
Martin
Martin
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Yup, MAS work usually went on quite a while before the OHLE ground works, usually evident by concrete troughing in the cess. Mind I have seen photos of machines digging for the trough at the same time as the boring machines were digging out bases for the OHLE.I agree with Mick, apart from no OHLE there are no real signs of resignalling and Watford PSB opened in July 64 so a year earlier I would expect some activity on that front. I think the location of the picture is rather given away by the signalbox nameboard.
Martin
They certainly moved at pace back in those days, three maybe four years to modernize and electrify from Crewe to Euston and Liverpool.
All things considered, summer 62 is practically the latest date it can be I think.
Last edited:
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Have you picked up a copy of my dad's photo (colour slide) of Tring Cutting signal box (and 46211 Queen Maud) taken around 12.45-1.00pm 1960/1 from the B489 road bridge near Pitstone cement works looking south? Must have been before October 1961 as the loco was withdrawn during that month.
I also have some of my dad's colour slides taken at Hemel and Boxmoor and B&W photos of Leighton Buzzard shot around the same period.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
I have now
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
A lot of helpful stuff here, chaps.
Thanks for the confirmation of Tring and North Wembley, Yorkie Dave. Particularly interesting for me regarding your info about Tring as it's my local station now (along with Wendover). I'm familiar with the hotel which, whilst not used for a number of years was never derelict. It was good to see it converted rather than being demolished. You'll already be aware that I've seen quite a few of your dad's images - and very good they are too.
Thanks, Mickoo for the advice about the date. As you are well aware I sent you a PM regarding the image. Thanks Martin for your additional confirmation. I was aware it was Tring but how you managed to read that nameboard on the signal box I really don't know!
Adam. I much appreciate the extra info about the van.
Here's 4F 0-6-0 43845 at Willesden in May 1963. The bank running down to the canal is on the right of the photo. It was a Toton engine and carried the correct 18A shed plate. It was withdrawn in July 1963. (SLS). It went to Derby Works where it was scrapped in September.
Tim records this as 46245, City of London, at South Kenton in April 1963 and en route to Willesden Junction and then to the ER for a special. However I actually believe this to have been taken at Willesden from the station on the DC lines with the loco being on its way to the North London lines and thence to the ER. In fact this is 9th June 1963, or maybe the day before, as 46245 was on the Home Counties Railway Society Doncaster Special from Kings Cross and return on 9th June, and according to Six Bells Junction performed rather well. With acknowledgement to Six Bells Junction:
"46245 London Kings Cross - (via ECML) - Doncaster
46245 Doncaster - (via ECML) - London Kings Cross
Notes :
(1) David Whittaker comments: A number of claims of a very high maximum speed on the descent from Stoke Summit towards Peterborough have been made for this run, some of them in the popular railway press. Figures of 119, 112 and 108 mph have been mentioned. Tellingly, however, there have not been properly detailed logs produced, with passing times, mileages and average speeds to support such claims, though a Duchess is obviously capable of high speeds."
46245 went to Crewe North from Willesden Shed in August 1964 and was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It then went to Cashmore's, Great Bridge where it was scrapped by the end of the year. (BR Database).
Finally an unidentified Fairburn 2-6-4T on a van train at South Kenton in April 1963.
Brian
Thanks for the confirmation of Tring and North Wembley, Yorkie Dave. Particularly interesting for me regarding your info about Tring as it's my local station now (along with Wendover). I'm familiar with the hotel which, whilst not used for a number of years was never derelict. It was good to see it converted rather than being demolished. You'll already be aware that I've seen quite a few of your dad's images - and very good they are too.
Thanks, Mickoo for the advice about the date. As you are well aware I sent you a PM regarding the image. Thanks Martin for your additional confirmation. I was aware it was Tring but how you managed to read that nameboard on the signal box I really don't know!
Adam. I much appreciate the extra info about the van.
Here's 4F 0-6-0 43845 at Willesden in May 1963. The bank running down to the canal is on the right of the photo. It was a Toton engine and carried the correct 18A shed plate. It was withdrawn in July 1963. (SLS). It went to Derby Works where it was scrapped in September.
Tim records this as 46245, City of London, at South Kenton in April 1963 and en route to Willesden Junction and then to the ER for a special. However I actually believe this to have been taken at Willesden from the station on the DC lines with the loco being on its way to the North London lines and thence to the ER. In fact this is 9th June 1963, or maybe the day before, as 46245 was on the Home Counties Railway Society Doncaster Special from Kings Cross and return on 9th June, and according to Six Bells Junction performed rather well. With acknowledgement to Six Bells Junction:
"46245 London Kings Cross - (via ECML) - Doncaster
46245 Doncaster - (via ECML) - London Kings Cross
Notes :
(1) David Whittaker comments: A number of claims of a very high maximum speed on the descent from Stoke Summit towards Peterborough have been made for this run, some of them in the popular railway press. Figures of 119, 112 and 108 mph have been mentioned. Tellingly, however, there have not been properly detailed logs produced, with passing times, mileages and average speeds to support such claims, though a Duchess is obviously capable of high speeds."
46245 went to Crewe North from Willesden Shed in August 1964 and was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It then went to Cashmore's, Great Bridge where it was scrapped by the end of the year. (BR Database).
Finally an unidentified Fairburn 2-6-4T on a van train at South Kenton in April 1963.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you for the confirmation, Mick. That map makes the location very obvious and can be precisely identified. Wonderful stuff!
Simply 9F 92057 at South Kenton in Apr 1963. It had just moved to Toton from Annesley (SLS advises the move was made at the beginning of May) and ended at Birkenhead Mollington Street by way of Saltley. It was withdrawn in early October 1965. (SLS). It was disposed of at T W Ward, Beighton, during December 1965. (BR Database).
We've seen what is probably this loco previously at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. Here it is again at Kings Cross between February and March 1963. I can best repeat the comments at the time of the last posting... I, personally, never saw one of these at Kings Cross or on the ECML. 43089 was allocated to New England between 5th August 1961 until 4th July 1964 when it went to Stavely (Barrow Hill). I have no knowledge of any others of this class allocated to New England or elsewhere in the area.
Additional comments see post #1947 and subsequent for the full details of the discussion but here are the "headlines": The Ivatt 4 is as you suggest unlikely so I had a look. Quite a few on the Doncaster built ones went new to New England around 1950, as far as I can see 43058 - 43069, and most of them lasted 5 or 6 years before going elsewhere. They were I think the LM regions contribution to the workings of the M&GN, replacing some of the decrepit stuff prior to then. I have also found reference to 43080 - 43089 there ex new but rarely staying very long. 43089's appearance at New England again in the early 60's is odd.
The loco ended up at Langwith Junction in October 1965 where it was withdrawn in November. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cox & Danks, Wadsley Bridge, by the end of April 1966. (Rail UK).
Finally for today two photos which may be of historical significance - certainly of historical value. These were both taken during the demolition of the old Euston and are dated between February and March 1963.
This first one is the destruction of the platforms.
And another of the Great Hall. This must have been a depressing sight after some of the wonderful pictures taken by Tim within the station confines.
Brian
Simply 9F 92057 at South Kenton in Apr 1963. It had just moved to Toton from Annesley (SLS advises the move was made at the beginning of May) and ended at Birkenhead Mollington Street by way of Saltley. It was withdrawn in early October 1965. (SLS). It was disposed of at T W Ward, Beighton, during December 1965. (BR Database).
We've seen what is probably this loco previously at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. Here it is again at Kings Cross between February and March 1963. I can best repeat the comments at the time of the last posting... I, personally, never saw one of these at Kings Cross or on the ECML. 43089 was allocated to New England between 5th August 1961 until 4th July 1964 when it went to Stavely (Barrow Hill). I have no knowledge of any others of this class allocated to New England or elsewhere in the area.
Additional comments see post #1947 and subsequent for the full details of the discussion but here are the "headlines": The Ivatt 4 is as you suggest unlikely so I had a look. Quite a few on the Doncaster built ones went new to New England around 1950, as far as I can see 43058 - 43069, and most of them lasted 5 or 6 years before going elsewhere. They were I think the LM regions contribution to the workings of the M&GN, replacing some of the decrepit stuff prior to then. I have also found reference to 43080 - 43089 there ex new but rarely staying very long. 43089's appearance at New England again in the early 60's is odd.
The loco ended up at Langwith Junction in October 1965 where it was withdrawn in November. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cox & Danks, Wadsley Bridge, by the end of April 1966. (Rail UK).
Finally for today two photos which may be of historical significance - certainly of historical value. These were both taken during the demolition of the old Euston and are dated between February and March 1963.
This first one is the destruction of the platforms.
And another of the Great Hall. This must have been a depressing sight after some of the wonderful pictures taken by Tim within the station confines.
Brian
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
Nice views of the tender pick up apparatus on the Ivatt 2-6-0 - so presumably an ex-M&GN engine.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for that, Arun - I'd failed to notice it! However, the Ivatt 2-6-0 in the earlier photo at Holloway Road also has pick up apparatus so I'm even more inclined to believe they are both the same loco.
