Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

Has anyone noticed in the photo of 9F 92057 at South Kenton in Apr 1963 above the loco is devoid of it's tender crest.

And the Ivatt 4MT 43089 at KX above is devoid of it's cabside number and tender crest.

All rather indicative of the state of the railway's approach to steam locomotives at the time.

They were I think the LM regions contribution to the workings of the M&GN, replacing some of the decrepit stuff prior to then.

The London Midland region appeared to be pretty adept at sending unkempt locos to 'foreign' regions - witness the run down state of locos they provided when they took over the operation of the ex-GCR line to London from the Eastern region.

 

[Osgood]

Has anyone noticed in the photo of 9F 92057 at South Kenton in Apr 1963 above the loco is devoid of it's tender crest.

And the Ivatt 4MT 43089 at KX above is devoid of it's cabside number and tender crest.

All rather indicative of the state of the railway's approach to steam locomotives at the time.



The London Midland region appeared to be pretty adept at sending unkempt locos to 'foreign' regions - witness the run down state of locos they provided when they took over the operation of the ex-GCR line to London from the Eastern region.

On the other hand -
the resolution of these images is not high enough (for me at least) to determine if the crests /numbers are there, but covered in grime.
I spent some time seeking out quality images of 9Fs in heavily weathered condition and was frequently surprised how difficult it was to see any indication at all of a crest beneath the layer of filth, although certainly cabside numbers were usually visible to some degree.
I concluded the crests were probably were there but totally invisible.

Does other evidence exist out there of numberlessness or crestlessness?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

the resolution of these images is not high enough (for me at least) to determine if the crests /numbers are there, but covered in grime.

On the Ivatt 4MT I would have expected to see the cabside number wiped clean or be cleaner than the rest of the loco so it could be identified. As for the tender crest is it likely the grime adheres itself better to the transfer/decal than rest of the tender?

Also after studying some of my dad's photos taken around the same time it's apparent lighting conditions and angle of photo can play a large part combined with grain of the film stock used.

However, I have some of my dad's which definitely have crestless locos. These two are cropped from my dad's 1952-1954 images of 46666 (ex LNWR 2-4-2T) at Seaton Jct, Rutland which may well be an exception as it was renumbered in 1948 but no crest applied since the loco was withdrawn/scrapped in June 1954. And of course this is ten years earlier or so than Tim's photos.

 

[Roger Pound]

Nice views of the tender pick up apparatus on the Ivatt 2-6-0 - so presumably an ex-M&GN engine.

From what I can gather 43089 was originally allocated to Neasden and thence to Cambridge, followed by Kings Lynn before returning to its final allocation again at Neasden. The Cambridge and Kings Lynn Allocations would confirm its M&GN use, also the possibility of working in to Kings Cross, albeit rarely. As is well known, the 430xx series was Ivatt's replacement design in 1947 for the ubiquitous Fowler 4F which originally monopolized the Midlands-East Coast services on the M&GN before replacement by the 2-6-0's. Anyone having had the experience of travelling behind a 4F on one of these services will know how boring the journey became at the pedestrian speed to which one was subjected. I speak from the experience of a young trainspotter being taken on holiday...!

 

[Osgood]

And in the last image of the 4MT it would not be unreasonable to conclude the crest had been painted out!

 

[oldravendale]

That's an interesting observation, Simon, and you are right. We owe a debt of gratitude to John Betjeman for highlighting the risk to our architectural heritage. I wonder if the Great Hall could have survived the development boom that's been London since Euston was first rebuilt. Was the Doric Arch a huge loss? Well, whether you are a fan or not the failure to retain it either there or moved elsewhere was an act of vandalism.

Rant over (temporarily!)

Yorkie Dave - From my own personal memory I can say that I never saw a loco with no cabside number (except on the WR) or without a totem although I know that the totems or "BRITISH RAILWAYS" were not always applied to locos overhauled immediately after nationalisation. Neither did I ever see a totem painted out Tony - after all what would be the point of doing so? Even those locos without totems on the Western Region retained GWR on the tanks up to withdrawal but I never saw a tender loco sporting GWR until we reached the stage where a few had been preserved (including Clun Castle which never carried "GWR" when in service being built in 1950). There's no doubt, though, that the Midland Region sent their most worn out examples to the ex GCR lines.

You are quite correct, Tony, that the resolution of these images is something of a compromise. They'll make decent prints up to A4 size and have all been scanned in the belief that they'll be viewed on WT at full screen size for which they seem adequate. However, I have the advantage of the TIFF original scans and I can confirm that the 9F does indeed have a cab side number and the 2-6-0 has a totem. In both cases the locos are in such appallingly filthy external condition in combination with the lighting at the time of the photos any numbers or external details are very difficult to detect. I'd be most interested to see any examples of locos without cabside numbers or totems in the later BR era though. (That excludes the Western Region, of course, where most locos had their cab side plates removed to avoid them being "repatriated"). Having said that I certainly have pictures of locos towards the end of steam which left works with no lining or decoration. In respect of the difficulty in determining details here's a JPEG from an original TIFF of the 2-6-0 and you'll see what I was dealing with, so it's possible I've smudged out any cabside info in trying to cover up the scratches.



(Tim and I used to joke about images like this, as I often accused him of keeping them lying around in his sock drawer.)

Yorkie Dave again - that photo of your dad's is a cracker in demonstrating how "decorations" for want of a better word can be lost due to lighting conditions in photography. The absence of any decoration on the tank side was also replicated elsewhere, certainly on locos leaving Ashford Works (I seem to remember but would have to check) at one time soon after nationalisation and your photo shows that it wasn't only Ashford.

Roger. Once again thank you for your research regarding this loco. I saw a number of the ex M & GN 2-6-0s at Eastleigh in 1965, all without exception in very poor external condition except for one which was going through works (43007 although 43106 looking disgraceful was in the shed yard and obviously subsequently went through the works). I suspect they were there for assessment to determine whether they were worth repairing. However, the bigger part of your post is of interest to me as it conflicts with the details I have gleaned from the Stephenson Locomotive Society. (As you may have noticed, having been roundly criticised by Mickoo for failing to quote the reference for the details attributed to each of the photos in view of their potential importance as historic documents I now try to do so). The SLS advises:

New to New England 31 December 1950
Allocated to Neasden 14 April 1951
Cambridge 11 September 1954
Melton Constable 13 July 1957
Cambridge 5 October 1957
Kings Lynn 30 November 1957
March 26 November 1960
Sheffield Grimesthorpe 4 March 1961
New England 5 August 1961
Staveley (Barrow Hill) 4 July 1964
Langwith Junction 9 October 1965
Withdrawn 14 November 1965

So certainly an M & GN loco at one time although the allocations don't match those you suggest. How we determine which may be correct (and is it really important having established and agreed about the allocation within the confines of the M & GN) I'm now unsure but it would be helpful to know where your details come from. My Locoshed Books, although I don't have a full run of them, generally agree with the SLS data.

So there's a couple of rabbit holes we've taken ourselves down. What fun! Please add any further thoughts or comments.

Hopefully I'll get to put up some more photos a bit later. That was my intention when I started this post but I got rather carried away...

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

43089 first appeared in post 1947 back on the 6/2/23 with what certainly appears to be a crest on the tender although the filth and the angle could lie. I did at the time post a whole lot of info about it's allocations and subsequently my sighting of it in a book at Kings Lynn confirmimg it's M&GN time. I note the SLS dates differ from the ones I gave but only marginally, so which are correct? I am not complaining too much but the last few posts do seem to be a reiteration of the discussion three months ago.

In respect of missing crest/totems there is in post 1969 of a B1 at Holloway Road apparently devoid of identification on the tender. It's almost certainly there disguised by the dirt.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Martin. You'll be aware that I referred to post #1947 as the source of detail in the information attached to the most recent photos. The new questions and statements are well worth more than a passing nod.

I agree though, based on personal experience, that the totems and numbers were present under all the dirt.

However, some more photos.

An atmospheric shot at Willesden between February and March 1963 is of 8F 48416. I believe this is actually adjacent to Old Oak Shed where the inter-regional freight exchange line crosses the Western Region line out of Paddington. Access to bunk Old Oak was along the canal behind Tim and look for a hole in the concrete fencing. The engine was from Willesden Shed and it moved to Crewe South in January 1965 from where it was withdrawn in June. (SLS and LCGB) According to WHTS it was scrapped by Bird's at Long Marston in February 1966.



Two A4s, 60006 Sir Ralph Wedgwood and 60025 Falcon coupled and light on the up line at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. Tim reported that the turntable at Kings Cross had broken down and locos were travelling to Hornsey for turning and return. As there was a turntable at Kings Cross Shed and Station (Bottom Shed) one wonders why, if one was broken the other wasn't used. Maybe it was the shed turntable and the station turntable and entry lines simply didn't have the capacity.

We saw Sir Ralph Wedgwood in post #2122 at the buffer stops in Kings Cross Station in May 1963. It was based at Kings Cross Shed until June 1963. It went to New England in June the same year and ended up at Aberdeen Ferryhill in May 1964 by way of St Margarets. It was used very successfully on the 3 hour expresses from Aberdeen to Glasgow. It was withdrawn from Aberdeen in September 1965. (SLS & BR Database). It was scrapped at Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Wishaw during October 1966. (BR Database).

Coincidentally Tim photographed 60025 on a train from Kings Cross on the same day at the same location. That was in post #1940. It was a Kings Cross engine at the time, moving to New England in June 1963 and being withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). It went to Doncaster for disposal and was scrapped in early January 1964. (BR Database).



Here's A2 60533 Happy Knight in a string of light engines again at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963 when the turntable at Kings Cross was broken. We saw the loco previously in post #223. Home was New England shed from where it was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It was cut up at Doncaster Works in September. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Two A4s, 60006 Sir Ralph Wedgwood and 60025 Falcon coupled and light on the up line at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. Tim reported that the turntable at Kings Cross had broken down and locos were travelling to Hornsey for turning and return. As there was a turntable at Kings Cross Shed and Station (Bottom Shed) one wonders why, if one was broken the other wasn't used. Maybe it was the shed turntable and the station turntable and entry lines simply didn't have the capacity.

The Ford Anglias parked on the platform in the background look new.

Afrer looking at the OS map of the areas and assuming it was the KX 'top' shed which was out of action it could well be there were too many conflicting train movements across the suburban lines to reach the 'bottom' station shed turntable. Combined with it's single locomotive length headshunt and insufficient waiting/holding/storage line capacity it would have been easier to signal a path to Hornsey.

 

[mickoo]

The Ford Anglias parked on the platform in the background look new.

Afrer looking at the OS map of the areas and assuming it was the KX 'top' shed which was out of action it could well be there were too many conflicting train movements across the suburban lines to reach the 'bottom' station shed turntable. Combined with it's single locomotive length headshunt and insufficient waiting/holding/storage line capacity it would have been easier to signal a path to Hornsey.

There's also the consideration of coal, Kings X passenger only had a small coaling facility and would soon run dry if it had to service a lot of express engines, Hornsey on the other hand, (if my memory serves me) had a massive mechanical Goliath of a coal tower.

 

[mickoo]

Thanks Martin. You'll be aware that I referred to post #1947 as the source of detail in the information attached to the most recent photos. The new questions and statements are well worth more than a passing nod.

I agree though, based on personal experience, that the totems and numbers were present under all the dirt.

However, some more photos.

An atmospheric shot at Willesden between February and March 1963 is of 8F 48416. I believe this is actually adjacent to Old Oak Shed where the inter-regional freight exchange line crosses the Western Region line out of Paddington. Access to bunk Old Oak was along the canal behind Tim and look for a hole in the concrete fencing. The engine was from Willesden Shed and it moved to Crewe South in January 1965 from where it was withdrawn in June. (SLS and LCGB) According to WHTS it was scrapped by Bird's at Long Marston in February 1966.

View attachment 185638

Two A4s, 60006 Sir Ralph Wedgwood and 60025 Falcon coupled and light on the up line at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. Tim reported that the turntable at Kings Cross had broken down and locos were travelling to Hornsey for turning and return. As there was a turntable at Kings Cross Shed and Station (Bottom Shed) one wonders why, if one was broken the other wasn't used. Maybe it was the shed turntable and the station turntable and entry lines simply didn't have the capacity.

We saw Sir Ralph Wedgwood in post #2122 at the buffer stops in Kings Cross Station in May 1963. It was based at Kings Cross Shed until June 1963. It went to New England in June the same year and ended up at Aberdeen Ferryhill in May 1964 by way of St Margarets. It was used very successfully on the 3 hour expresses from Aberdeen to Glasgow. It was withdrawn from Aberdeen in September 1965. (SLS & BR Database). It was scrapped at Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Wishaw during October 1966. (BR Database).

Coincidentally Tim photographed 60025 on a train from Kings Cross on the same day at the same location. That was in post #1940. It was a Kings Cross engine at the time, moving to New England in June 1963 and being withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). It went to Doncaster for disposal and was scrapped in early January 1964. (BR Database).

View attachment 185639

Here's A2 60533 Happy Knight in a string of light engines again at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963 when the turntable at Kings Cross was broken. We saw the loco previously in post #223. Home was New England shed from where it was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It was cut up at Doncaster Works in September. (BR Database).

View attachment 185640

Brian

I like that 8F shot, your location is correct and you can see the guards wagon on the sidings that truncated at the canal.

Interestingly this leg could only be accessed from trains coming out of Euston or the Southern region, the freight line from the SR crossed the GW, passed through Mitre Jct and looped up around Willesden before heading back to the GW to join West of OOC.

The 8F has no train attached, but just by the tender rear it looks like the Fireman is setting the points for some shunting?.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the thoughts there, Dave. We've seen those Ford Anglias previously. Tim took quite a few photos at Holloway Road and if grouped we'd probably find that a lot were on the same day. I've not got as far as recording these in any meaningful order except for loco number yet. It's another task to complete when I've finished this current lot of scanning.

Mick, once again thanks for your confirmation, and you've again noted a detail I'd failed to register about the fireman and the point changing. It's now added, as is my wont to the photo details.

Today we start off again pretty much where we left off yesterday.

27th March 1963 and Holloway Road again with a string of locos on their way to Hornsey for turning. Nearest the camera is WD 2-8-0 90439, then V2 60854 and furthest is the subject of the final photo yesterday, 60533 Happy Knight. I'll not repeat the details for Happy Knight. 60854 was a Kings Cross engine at the time although not for much longer as it moved to New England in April where it was withdrawn in June. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for scrapping which was completed in October. (BR Database). 90439 was a Frodingham engine from April 1963 (SLS) although it's carrying a 34E Peterborough shed plate in this photo. It was withdrawn from Frodingham in November 1965 and went to W George, Station Steel at Wath where it was scrapped during March 1966. (BR Database).



A shot full of atmosphere here as A4 60006 Sir Ralph Wedgewood passes through Holloway Road with the 4.21 Peterborough on 27th March 1963. Details are in post #2148 above where it had been photographed on its way to Hornsey for turning.



Another light loco on the down line and probably making for Hornsey on 27th March 1963 is A2 60523 Sun Castle. It was at it's final shed, New England, and was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It went in to Doncaster Works for cutting up at the end of August. (BR Database). This was the subject of a discussion regarding an unidentified A2 at Harringay West and featured in post #1988.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Another light loco on the down line and making for Hornsey to turn on 27th March 1963 is A2 60523 Sun Castle. It was at it's final shed, New England, and was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It went in to Doncaster Works for cutting up at the end of August. (BR Database). This was the subject of a discussion regarding an unidentified A2 at Harringay West and featured in post #1988.

Did you spot the Brush type 2 (Cl 31) in the background with a quad or quin articulated set - probably heading for the York Road platform and onto Moorgate.

 

[mickoo]

60523 is not for turning, it's already facing the right way and I'm not sure why it's on the down goods as that comes from top shed and the goods and mineral sidings. Typically engines back down to Kings cross at Goods and mineral/Belle Isle but as mentioned before, that limits them to Platform 6 and above.

It'll have to go a little further on the down goods to Holloway North and then cross back over to pick up the up fast or up slow and then access Platforms 1-6 more easily and that is my gut feeling is what is going on here; it's taking the path of least conflict and scenic way round. If you look at the first photo you can just see the rear end of a Pacific tender, could be 60523 heading to Holloway North to set back.

The other option if Top shed turntable is out of service is that it's been turned at passenger loco and is heading to Hornsey for coal or maybe even light service.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you again, Mick. I rather got carried away with my assumptions and should have realised that the loco was facing in the wrong direction for my commentary which I've modified in the light of your comments. Also to Dave for drawing attention to something I'd not previously noticed.

A4 60025 Falcon with the 4.35 Newcastle at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. Tim recorded this light engine on the same day and location hown in post #2148. It was a Kings Cross engine at the time, moving to New England in June 1963 and being withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). It went to Doncaster for disposal and was scrapped in early January 1964. (BR Database). New Ford Anglias on the platform.



A1 60157 Great Eastern on an up Leeds train at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. It was a Doncaster engine being withdrawn in January 1965. (SLS). It went to Draper's at Hull where it was scrapped in February 1965. (BR Database)



A4 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley on an up freight van and container train at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. Home shed was Kings Cross at the time, moving to New England in June and then to Scotland for use on the 3 hour Aberdeen-Glasgow trains. It was withdrawn from Aberdeen Ferryhill in February 1966 and its subsequent career in preservation is well recorded elsewhere. (SLS).



Brian

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Brian,

In the last photo, the board on the signal box gives the game away - 'Holloway South Up'

Keep the pictures coming - especially from South of the Thames.

kind regards

Mike

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

New Ford Anglias on the platform.

Interesting, if they were for onward loading and delivery it makes you wonder why from here and not Dagenham where they were produced (and Halewood from 1963). Unless they are Halewood built models on their way to London showrooms.

A4 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley recorded as on an up freight van and container train but surely this must be down at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. Home shed was Kings Cross at the time, moving to New England in June and then to Scotland for use on the 3 hour Aberdeen-Glasgow trains. It was withdrawn from Aberdeen Ferryhill in February 1966 and its subsequent career in preservation is well recorded elsewhere. (SLS).

As @Ressaldar says the signal box is Holloway South Up. The photo would have been taken from the signal box on the other side of the tracks.

A1 60157 Great Eastern on an up Leeds train at recorded by Tim as Holloway Road on 27th March 1963 but I think it's Harringay West. It was a Doncaster engine being withdrawn in January 1965. (SLS). It went to Draper's at Hull where it was scrapped in February 1965. (BR Database)

This is Holloway Road as Tim originally notes - Holloway South Up signal box would have been behind him. The signal bracket is the same as the one on the left in the photo of 60007 and the platform in the foreground matches the one on the map.

Looking at the horizion it just goes to show how hilly London is as these lines - along with Marylebone and the LMR lines (St Pancras and Euston) having to drop into their respective termini.

 

[PMP]

Going back to the 80’s and working at Kings Cross, I have a vague recollection of being told that new cars were delivered onto that Holloway Road platform.

The platform was at A in this picture

In this picture the circled building at that time,(an old tram depot I believe) always had large ‘Ford’ branding facing the railway. It’s possible that the two are connected in that new cars were delivered onto that platform, and then subsequently moved into the tram shed for preparation and distribution to London area dealerships.

 

[mickoo]

At one point I'm sure the Motorail services also ran from here to Scotland on the ECML in the late 50's - early 60's

 

[oldravendale]

Exceptionally helpful stuff again, and I've edited the commentary for each of the photos to reflect the confirmation of location and the "up" from the "down". I'll have to keep a sharp eye out for future posts, though, as I've just checked a number of photos, yet to be seen, which state the location to be Harringay West when I now know it's Holloway Road - that's what mislead me to doubt the description (now corrected) applied to 60157. Doubtless if I slip up there'll be some hawkeyes on here who'll put me right. Such useful stuff about the Ford cars as well. So thank you Mike, Dave, PMP and Mickoo.

Mike - there are quite a few more photos south of the Thames notably around Brighton to come but they are quite a long way away yet as there remain a lot on both the east and west coast lines and, come to that, the Western Region, to deal with first.

A4 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower on a down fitted freight to Dringhouses at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. In March it was a Kings Cross engine but it moved to New England in June and was withdrawn in July. It was restored but not repaired at Doncaster Works before going to the USA in preservation.



Two of Class A4 60010 Dominion of Canada on the down 4.5pm Leeds & Bradford at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. It was also a Kings Cross engine and moved to New England in June then to Aberdeen Ferryhill in November where it was withdrawn at the end of May 1965. It went in to preservation at Delson, Montreal. (SLS)





Finally a WD 2-8-0 No 90439 light engine at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. We've seen 90439 very recently in post #2152 but to repeat: it was a Frodingham engine from April 1963 (SLS). It was withdrawn from Frodingham in November 1965 and went to W George, Station Steel at Wath where it was scrapped during March 1966. (BR Database).



Brian