Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
I name you as Richard Dimbleby and claim the £5, and yes removing the cotter is b hard, thankfully I'm far too old to need to do it these days.
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen
Western Thunderer
Hi Brian,
A superb picture on the cover of the latest Great Eastern Journal from the collection of Tim Mills, thank you very much for submitting it and also your excellent profile of Tim.
For those who aren't members it is a photo of Liverpool Street station pilot 69614, N7, in the station being cleaned. The atmosphere and detail are really something extraordinary.
Tim
A superb picture on the cover of the latest Great Eastern Journal from the collection of Tim Mills, thank you very much for submitting it and also your excellent profile of Tim.
For those who aren't members it is a photo of Liverpool Street station pilot 69614, N7, in the station being cleaned. The atmosphere and detail are really something extraordinary.
Tim
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you for your continuing feedback about these photos.
Roger - you may well be right. The number I gave the loco was from trying to read the picture - Tim gave me no clue - so 13 is entirely plausible.
Graham - great stuff to which we'll never know the answer. There's a lot of really heavy work there by the fitters.
Michael - we're sussed at last. Yes, it's one of Mickoo's...
Thanks for your note of appreciation, Tim. That particular photo has yet to be shown on WT - it will be but remains a fair way away yet. I'll pass your kind comments on to Tim's family. They are, as you know, particularly jealous of the copyright issue and it took a fair bit of negotiation to get their approval for it to be published. However they recognised that there was no value in it remaining unseen in a collection and that we were fulfilling Tim's wishes. We'll doubtless have to go into similar negotiations if we want to publish more outside the confines of WT but I'm up for that challenge when it becomes necessary.
Taken in 1962 Tim had this down as an unknown S Class 4-4-0 on shed at Adelaide MPD. In fact the number is readable and it's the famous 171, Slieve Gullion, built in 1913 by Beyer Peacock and rebuilt in 1938. It went from GNR(I) to CIE as 171N in October 1958 but in 1963 was acquired by the UTA from the CIE. It was withdrawn in 1965. See No.171 "Slieve Gullion" for the full story.
Adelaide MPD, Belfast in 1960 or 1962. It's No 64 Lough Gill which was a U Class. No 64 was withdrawn in 1961 so from the choice of the two possible dates of the photograph and the fact that the loco is clearly still working we'll have to go for 1960. Under the auspices of the GNR(I) it was no 196 but renumbered on transfer to the UTA. It was built by Beyer Peacock in 1915.
On 10th August 1960 and this was identified as No 14, an ex-NCC V1 class 0-6-0 waiting scrap at Adelaide MPD Belfast. It was built by the LMS in 1923 and rebuilt to a V1 from a V in 1953. It was finally withdrawn in 1961. However, from this view I'm not too sure about it's LMS antecedents. There may be other suggestions.....
Brian
Roger - you may well be right. The number I gave the loco was from trying to read the picture - Tim gave me no clue - so 13 is entirely plausible.
Graham - great stuff to which we'll never know the answer. There's a lot of really heavy work there by the fitters.
Michael - we're sussed at last. Yes, it's one of Mickoo's...
Thanks for your note of appreciation, Tim. That particular photo has yet to be shown on WT - it will be but remains a fair way away yet. I'll pass your kind comments on to Tim's family. They are, as you know, particularly jealous of the copyright issue and it took a fair bit of negotiation to get their approval for it to be published. However they recognised that there was no value in it remaining unseen in a collection and that we were fulfilling Tim's wishes. We'll doubtless have to go into similar negotiations if we want to publish more outside the confines of WT but I'm up for that challenge when it becomes necessary.
Taken in 1962 Tim had this down as an unknown S Class 4-4-0 on shed at Adelaide MPD. In fact the number is readable and it's the famous 171, Slieve Gullion, built in 1913 by Beyer Peacock and rebuilt in 1938. It went from GNR(I) to CIE as 171N in October 1958 but in 1963 was acquired by the UTA from the CIE. It was withdrawn in 1965. See No.171 "Slieve Gullion" for the full story.
Adelaide MPD, Belfast in 1960 or 1962. It's No 64 Lough Gill which was a U Class. No 64 was withdrawn in 1961 so from the choice of the two possible dates of the photograph and the fact that the loco is clearly still working we'll have to go for 1960. Under the auspices of the GNR(I) it was no 196 but renumbered on transfer to the UTA. It was built by Beyer Peacock in 1915.
On 10th August 1960 and this was identified as No 14, an ex-NCC V1 class 0-6-0 waiting scrap at Adelaide MPD Belfast. It was built by the LMS in 1923 and rebuilt to a V1 from a V in 1953. It was finally withdrawn in 1961. However, from this view I'm not too sure about it's LMS antecedents. There may be other suggestions.....
Brian
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
Brin,
The V class were all three built at Derby. The observation has been made elsewhere asking as to why the design was really necessary when three Midland pattern 4F 0-6-0's could have been re-gauged and would have done instead. Speculation and hindsight are wonderful things.......
!
Many thanks for these further visits to Northern Ireland - much enjoyed.
Roger.
The V class were all three built at Derby. The observation has been made elsewhere asking as to why the design was really necessary when three Midland pattern 4F 0-6-0's could have been re-gauged and would have done instead. Speculation and hindsight are wonderful things.......
!Many thanks for these further visits to Northern Ireland - much enjoyed.
Roger.
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
If I may a slight expansion of Roger's post. He is right they were built at Derby but given they were delivered in February 1923 owe everything to the Midland Railway, look at the chimney, shades of Clayton on the SECR I feel. When delivered they had round top boilers and looked somewhat more elderly than the pic. The tender shown is also rather archaic compared to another of the class which had something not dissimilar looking to curved top Stanier tender although smaller probably. They were originally numbered 71-73, almost immediately renumbered X/Y/Z and then in April 1923 13-15. 14 was rebuilt to a VI with a G6S boiler in October 1951, it not having been reboilered as the other two were in 1938. 13 and 14 were rebuilt as V1s in Feb and Dec 1953 respectively. In number order they were scrapped in Aug 64, May 61, Dec 61.
Martin
Martin
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you Roger and Martin for the additional details. That's put me right!
Still in Ireland for this first one.
UTA Z Class No 27 0-6-4T named Lough Erne bought by the UTA from the liquidators of the Sligo Leitrim & Northern Counties Railway in 1959 shunting Adelaide MPD Belfast on 10th August 1960. It actually got as far as Northern Ireland Railways in 1968. It was built by Beyer Peacock in 1949 and delivered in 1951. Northern Ireland Railways withdrew it in 1970.
A2 60520 Owen Tudor light engine at Holloway Road in April 1963. It was allocated to New England at the time of the photo and withdrawn only two months after. (SLS). It was in to Doncaster Works for cutting up by the end of August. (BR Database).
WD 2-8-0 No 90659 at Potters Bar in February 1963. It was a New England engine at the time and withdrawn from there in May the same year. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped in July. (BR Database).
An unidentified locomotive entering Kings Cross in April 1963. Deltic hiding on the extreme left of frame.
Brian
Still in Ireland for this first one.
UTA Z Class No 27 0-6-4T named Lough Erne bought by the UTA from the liquidators of the Sligo Leitrim & Northern Counties Railway in 1959 shunting Adelaide MPD Belfast on 10th August 1960. It actually got as far as Northern Ireland Railways in 1968. It was built by Beyer Peacock in 1949 and delivered in 1951. Northern Ireland Railways withdrew it in 1970.
A2 60520 Owen Tudor light engine at Holloway Road in April 1963. It was allocated to New England at the time of the photo and withdrawn only two months after. (SLS). It was in to Doncaster Works for cutting up by the end of August. (BR Database).
WD 2-8-0 No 90659 at Potters Bar in February 1963. It was a New England engine at the time and withdrawn from there in May the same year. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped in July. (BR Database).
An unidentified locomotive entering Kings Cross in April 1963. Deltic hiding on the extreme left of frame.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
At last we've caught up with the rescans so now we'll continue with the collection in its regular, totally unstructured format.
Variety is, after all, the spice of life.
First a Jubilee at St Pancras in June 1963, at the time a gloomy, dark and uninspiring place on the inside although the outside always looked majestic if a bit overblown Victorian. This is 45667 Jellicoe at the buffer stops. It was a Derby engine at the time, although not carrying a shed plate. In October 1964 it went to Bank Hall where it was withdrawn in January 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Maden & McKee in Stanley, Liverpool by the end of May the same year. Nice selection of barrows on the adjacent platform.
The first of a series at the Cross in June 1963. This is V2 60803 at the time belonging to New England where it was withdrawn in the same month as this photo, in fact on the 16th which means this series and the Jubilee must have been photographed in the first half of June. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped by the end of November. (BR Database). English Electric Type 4 (Class 40) lurking in the background.
Same loco, same location and same day but with what I believe to be an unidentified BTH Type 1 in the frame. I may, of course, be incorrect with the description and I've no idea of the TOPS Class.....
The last in the series in early June 1963 with the accidental and unidentified Type 1 and EE Class 40 included. I'm guessing that this series was taken over the wall above Kings Cross York Road Station, an unusual and interesting viewpoint.
Brian
Variety is, after all, the spice of life.First a Jubilee at St Pancras in June 1963, at the time a gloomy, dark and uninspiring place on the inside although the outside always looked majestic if a bit overblown Victorian. This is 45667 Jellicoe at the buffer stops. It was a Derby engine at the time, although not carrying a shed plate. In October 1964 it went to Bank Hall where it was withdrawn in January 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Maden & McKee in Stanley, Liverpool by the end of May the same year. Nice selection of barrows on the adjacent platform.
The first of a series at the Cross in June 1963. This is V2 60803 at the time belonging to New England where it was withdrawn in the same month as this photo, in fact on the 16th which means this series and the Jubilee must have been photographed in the first half of June. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped by the end of November. (BR Database). English Electric Type 4 (Class 40) lurking in the background.
Same loco, same location and same day but with what I believe to be an unidentified BTH Type 1 in the frame. I may, of course, be incorrect with the description and I've no idea of the TOPS Class.....
The last in the series in early June 1963 with the accidental and unidentified Type 1 and EE Class 40 included. I'm guessing that this series was taken over the wall above Kings Cross York Road Station, an unusual and interesting viewpoint.
Brian
Attachments
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img1732 TM 45667 St Pancras Jun 63 No Film ID copyright Final.jpg -
img1733 TM 60803 Kings Cross Jun 63 No Film ID copyright Final NEW.jpg -
img1734 TM 60803 and unidentified BTH diesel Kings Cross Jun 63 No Film ID copyright Final NEW.jpg -
img1735 TM Unidentified Class 40 Type 4 & BTH Type 1 diesels Kings Cross Jun 63 Kings Cross Ju...jpg
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Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
Brian,
The mysterious BTH Type 1 was no doubt one of many allocated to Stratford (30A) in 1963. They subsequently became Class 15 in the TOPS series and were possibly the most unsuccessful of the various Type 1 classes introduced in early dieselisation. They were all withdrawn by 1972 Four were converted during 1969 to carriage heating units (D8203/33/37/43). I do not know if they lasted any longer than the remainder in service. I do not think any of them carried TOPS numbers, but am open to correction on that.
It was said that the class was kept close to Stratford in later days so that 'rescue' engines did not have too far to travel when a Class 15 failed - something which was apparently frequent.
Hoping some of the above may be of use.
Roger
The mysterious BTH Type 1 was no doubt one of many allocated to Stratford (30A) in 1963. They subsequently became Class 15 in the TOPS series and were possibly the most unsuccessful of the various Type 1 classes introduced in early dieselisation. They were all withdrawn by 1972 Four were converted during 1969 to carriage heating units (D8203/33/37/43). I do not know if they lasted any longer than the remainder in service. I do not think any of them carried TOPS numbers, but am open to correction on that.
It was said that the class was kept close to Stratford in later days so that 'rescue' engines did not have too far to travel when a Class 15 failed - something which was apparently frequent.
Hoping some of the above may be of use.
Roger
robertm
Western Thunderer
I have no doubt the NB type 1 was the real dog in the pilot series of type 1 diesels. What Roger describes above for the BTH was certainly true of them hence no more were produced after the initial 10. The BTH offering did at least secure follow on orders and I have fond memories of them pootling around Felsted c1960 on pick up freight duties. I think they were victims of a lack of suitable work and being a relatively non standard class.
Just my thoughts
Bob
ps I second simond’s comments above
Just my thoughts
Bob
ps I second simond’s comments above
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Didn't Finsbury Park and Hornsey have an allocation of BTH Type 1's (15) and I'm sure they had the NB Type 1 (21) as well as BRCW Trype 2's (26, 27) on their books. All were used on Kings Cross locals in their early days.
A reasonable handful of 15's ended up at Ipswich on trip freights as did the 21s before moving away.
There's two NB Type 1's, the (BR) class 16 and (BR) class 21, the latter were re-engined (29) and sent to Scotland and faired much better over the Highland routes.
A reasonable handful of 15's ended up at Ipswich on trip freights as did the 21s before moving away.
There's two NB Type 1's, the (BR) class 16 and (BR) class 21, the latter were re-engined (29) and sent to Scotland and faired much better over the Highland routes.
robertm
Western Thunderer
Confusing because the NB class 1 (class16) was rated at 800bhp which is the class I was referring to, not the class 21 rated at 1000bhp which I believe moved into class 2 rating, along with the far superior EE type 1(class20) also rated at 1000bhp. I’m getting dizzy!
Bob
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Good point, I always thought the originals were Type 1, mind with a BR code of 21 they should be Type 2. I think you're probably right and I'm the one with the wrong end of the stick
Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen
Western Thunderer
Devons Road, Finsbury Park, Ipswich, March, Norwich and Stratford all had Cl 15, D8200s, allocated at some time or other. The Cl 16, D8400/09 were, I believe, the real bad eggs and were only ever allocated to Stratford, and then only let out on a lead.
Tim
Tim
Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen
Western Thunderer
They were at 30A from 60-63 then on to 34G until 69/70.
Tim
Tim
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Just to interrupt, chaps, is the loco in the photos a Class 15, 16 or a Class 21? I just want to clarify so I can get the data for the photo correct.
I really appreciate the continuing discussion which'll be added to the data attached to the photos.
Brian
I really appreciate the continuing discussion which'll be added to the data attached to the photos.
Brian
Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen
Western Thunderer
Hi Brian,
Its a class 15,
Tim
Its a class 15,
Tim
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
Sorry Brian, I thought I had made the point it was a 15 - my apologies for being vague
!Roger
Hi,
the class 15's, or, more correctly, D8200 series, weren't the worst of the early types 1's: the class 16's were a lot worse, closely followed by the class 17's! For a type 1 of low horsepower their engines were complex and prone to failure, but these issues were gradually ironed out, even though they remained expensive to maintain. What really did them in was the lack of work for which they were designed for and double manning when running long bonnet first. With BR trying to cut costs this was a big no-no, yet surprising when the class 20's having similar bonnets survived. (their extra power was a factor in their survival, as well as ease of maintenance and cheaper costs compared to the other type 1's). In the 1967 National Traction Plan they were deemed non-standard and so withdrawn.
It's worth noting that in their early years, before problems with the engines set in, they had an availability record of 83%, which is quite respectable for a locomotive class buiult in 1957. If only they could have maintained it!
Roja
the class 15's, or, more correctly, D8200 series, weren't the worst of the early types 1's: the class 16's were a lot worse, closely followed by the class 17's! For a type 1 of low horsepower their engines were complex and prone to failure, but these issues were gradually ironed out, even though they remained expensive to maintain. What really did them in was the lack of work for which they were designed for and double manning when running long bonnet first. With BR trying to cut costs this was a big no-no, yet surprising when the class 20's having similar bonnets survived. (their extra power was a factor in their survival, as well as ease of maintenance and cheaper costs compared to the other type 1's). In the 1967 National Traction Plan they were deemed non-standard and so withdrawn.
It's worth noting that in their early years, before problems with the engines set in, they had an availability record of 83%, which is quite respectable for a locomotive class buiult in 1957. If only they could have maintained it!
Roja