Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[John Ross]

Dave - you make a very good point and perhaps I've again made an assumption. As the latest photo of 70039 was taken from the York Road platform Tim would have had to sprint along the side of Kings Cross Station and on to the main concourse to photograph the loco at the buffer stops. It's possible indeed, but how likely? Well, knowing Tim as I did it wouldn't surprise me if that's exactly what he did! However it's rather more likely that the photos were taken on two different days as the data attached to each photo suggests.

As far as I remember it was not unusual for the same loco to be used on the same service with the same stock over a significant period of time. In the case of these photos they were taken on adjacent months so there's no reason why one shouldn't have been on 31st May and the others on 1st June. We don't have a definitive answer but I'll admit that's entirely possible.

Two photos of A1 60133 Pommern at Finsbury Park in June 1963. This was a Leeds, Copley Hill, engine at the time, moving to Ardsley in September 1964 from where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). Disposal was to Clayton & Davie at Dunston on Tyne where it was despatched by the end of August. (Rail UK).

View attachment 181960

View attachment 181959

Class A2/3 60500 Edward Thompson at Potters Bar in February 1963. We last saw this loco on img1683, 1684 and 1685 in post #1973 at Kings Cross in May the same year. It was withdrawn from New England in June the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the beginning of September.

View attachment 181961

A3 60046 Diamond Jubilee at Potters Bar in February 1963. We've seen this loco previously as img1319 in post #1566 also at Potters Bar in July 1960, then img1474 in post #1761 at Kings Cross in March 1962 and then img1665 in post #1761 at Holloway Road in March 1963. It was at New England at the time of this photo going to Grantham in April. It was withdrawn from Grantham in June 1963. Trough deflectors were fitted in October 1961. It was seen at Doncaster in August 1963. (SLS) It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in August 1963. (Rail UK).

View attachment 181962

Brian

As ever first rate photos with added advantage of been taken in snowy weather. I always find the mixture of steam and snow very atmospheric a bit thank you to Tim for braving the Big Freeze of 1962/63 and yourself for bringing it to our attention.

 

[Chas Levin]

As ever first rate photos with added advantage of been taken in snowy weather. I always find the mixture of steam and snow very atmospheric a bit thank you to Tim for braving the Big Freeze of 1962/63 and yourself for bringing it to our attention.

Agreed on all counts!

I wonder what it is about the snow+steam combination that is so appealing?

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Mick, for that additional info. It rather brings the photos to life.

Thanks to John and Chas too for your continued enthusiasm for these photos. Tim was certainly no slouch when it came to railway photography in all conditions, most of which worked but some of which didn't. Nevertheless I remain eternally grateful that he has made these available to us. One more in the snow now and more to come a bit later.

An unidentified A4 at Wood Green in February 1963. Clearly taken from the train in the station. Masterful framing with that single chap on the platform. When I get the chance I'll try masking this but I suspect that the grain will get the better of it.



A4 60021 Wild Swan with the new order in the shape of Brush Type 2 (or Class 31 if you prefer) D5601 alongside at Kings Cross in April 1963. In 1963 D5601 was allocated to Finsbury Park, eventually ending up at Holbeck as 31180 where it was withdrawn in March 2000. It was scrapped in June 2003 at T J Thomson & Son in Stockton. (BR Database). The A4 has appeared in these posts several times previously but suffice to say that in April 1963 it was allocated to Kings Cross (it carries the 34A shed plate here), but not for much longer as it was moved to New England in June where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1964 at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).



A3 60073 St Gatien at Kings Cross in April 1963. We've seen this loco some time previously at Newcastle. It had been a long time resident of Heaton at the time of this photo (BR Database) but moved to Gateshead in July from where it was withdrawn in August. (SLS). It was scrapped at Darlington Works at the end of the same month. (Rail UK). It had received trough deflectors when it left Doncaster Works after a heavy intermediate in May 1961. (SLS).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Here's that unidentified A4 again with the frame remasked. Unfortunately the grain is getting the better of it and it makes a portrait framing, which would probably suit the subject better, an impossible option.



A4 60015 Quicksilver at Kings Cross in April 1963. It was a Kings Cross engine from 1951 but sadly not for much longer as it was withdrawn from there towards the end of the month this photo was taken. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was complete by the middle of May. (BR Database).



A1 60148 Aboyeur at Wood Green in April 1963. It was at Leeds, Copley Hill, at the time of the photo and then moved around a bit, ending up at Gateshead from where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). By August it had been scrapped at Arnott Young, Dinsdale. (BR Database).



9F 92144 at Wood Green in April 1963. This was based at New England at the time of the photo, moving to Colwick by way of Langwith Junction. It was withdrawn from Colwick in December 1965 (SLS) and was scrapped in April 1966 at T W Ward, Beighton. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Chas Levin]

That unidentified A4 shot is an absolute classic, isn't it? I don't think the grain is a problem - it's still terrifically atmospheric and well worth seeing...

 

[Roger Pound]

The picture of 60015 'Quicksilver' brought back many happy memories of days out at Grantham train spotting. An hour's bus-ride from home and the school satchel doing duty as 'tuck-bag' and a day spent watching Pacifics going on and off the shed along with much other action. On nearly every visit, 'Quicksilver ' was found to be 'on shed', and in those days was in the blue livery first used by British Railways on various 'prestige' classes.
Thank you as ever, for reviving the memories, Brian.

Roger.

 

[malc60015]

The picture of 60015 'Quicksilver' brought back many happy memories of days out at Grantham train spotting. An hour's bus-ride from home and the school satchel doing duty as 'tuck-bag' and a day spent watching Pacifics going on and off the shed along with much other action. On nearly every visit, 'Quicksilver ' was found to be 'on shed', and in those days was in the blue livery first used by British Railways on various 'prestige' classes.
Thank you as ever, for reviving the memories, Brian.

Roger.

Thanks for sharing the pictures,60015 Quicksilver was the first A4 that I saw.
Malc

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Chas. To reframe is not an issue. I guess the grain actually adds a bit of atmosphere.

Thanks too, Roger and Malc. My memory is of A4 Miles Beevor at Kings Cross. Every time I visited.... Having got fed up with seeing it I was mortified where it was scrapped.

B1 61210 with an unidentified 08 shunting with another unidentified 08 on the left and in the distance an unidentified Class 24 (apologies, Heather) at Haringay West in April 1963. The second shot misses the left hand 08 and the 24. 61210 was a New England engine in 1963 until it moved to Colwick in October. Later it went to Doncaster from where it was withdrawn in December 1965. (SLS). It ended up at Drapers in Hull where it was scrapped in March 1966. (BR Database).





Another of 60107 Royal Lancer at Kings Cross in April 1963 last seen in post #2013. This completes the set. To repeat the previous info it was at Kings Cross Shed from October 1960, thence to Grantham in June 1963 from where it was withdrawn at the beginning of September the same year. It was disposed of at Doncaster Works the following month. That's just four months to withdrawal and the loco looks in super condition in these photos.

Yorkie Dave pointed out:

Interesting sequence of the three photos showing the departure of the Glasgow train from the adjacent platform with very clean Mk 1 coaches. Together with the drifting steam accentuated by the slow shutter speed thereby adding atmosphere.

The Glasgow train can narrow down the approx time the photo was taken. After checking the 1963 timetable I can only find one direct train from KX to Glasgow shown in bold typeface.

This being the 12.00 noon Sundays only departure - assuming it's not an ECS from an earlier arrival, however for this the roof boards would be reversed i.e. Glasgow - Kings Cross. Also note the relatively deserted platforms.

The remainder of the KX non-Pullman daytime departures (below) show the Glasgow arrival time in a light typeface implying it was an onward connecting service.

Mon-Fri
8.00 am The Talisman
10.00 am The Flying Scotsman
11.00 am un-named train
2.00 pm The Heart of Midlothian
4.00 pm The Talisman

Sat
10.00 am The Flying Scotsman
10.10 am un-named train
11.00 am un-named train
2.00 pm The Heart of Midlothian

SUN - all un-named trains
10.00 am
11.00 am
12.00 noon - my money would be on this one as described above.
2.00 pm

...and then from Martin...

There is I feel a marked connection between the pictures of "Minoru", IMGs 1695/6/7 and "Royal Lancer" IMGs 1701/2/3. and that is that both show a class 2 train hauled by a pacific locomotive which is relatively unusual, and the rolling stock being pulled. I've commented on the first but looking at the train behind 60107 it seems to be 6 vehicles, assuming a loco at the far end, which all appear to be Mk1 suburban stock. The nearest is a short underframe Second Lav Open of which there were only 27 and at either the GN or the LT&S, next looks like a Brake Second and then what could well be a Compo Lav, the pattern of footboards rather dictates that it isn't a BS or S or SO. The last three vehicles are not identifiable but two lav vehicle marshalled like that suggests a scratch set, all stations to Welwyn maybe. It could well be a Sunday as Dave thinks, and the fact that it was still at Top Shed is perhaps a pointer to it's external condition, in contrast to Minoru from New England.



The one and only 60103 Flying Scotsman at Potters Bar in February 1963. Could it even be Alan Pegler waving from the cab? It was withdrawn on 14th January 1963 so I just wonder if this was taken on the day of withdrawal and Tim just has the month wrong. But I always was an incurable romantic.....



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Here's an unidentified A3 with a number possibly ending in 5 at Potters Bar in February 1963.



This is, I believe, 60500 Edward Thompson again at Potters Bar in February 1963. We saw this loco on img1683, 1684, and 1685 in post #1973 and at Kings Cross in May the same year. It was at Potters Bar as img1711 in post #2019. It was withdrawn from New England in June 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the beginning of September.



Standard Class 2 2-6-0 78063 at Willesden in June 1963. It went to Willesden from Wigan Central at the beginning of the month when it was photographed. It's carrying the correct 1A shed plate. It ended up at Shrewsbury in May 1966 by way of Nuneaton and was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It ended up at Cashmore's Newport where it was scrapped in September 1967 (BR Database) although the SLS report it as being dumped at United Wagon Co in Newport on 16th October.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

There will now follow a few posts with a real gallimaufry of images. During processing of the collection there were a few where I was dissatisfied with the quality of the scan. These have now all been rescanned and I'm now processing them. The following images are in no particular sequence but will soon bring us back up to date.

This is 47410 (D1509) at Hornsey on 25th August 1977. It was allocated to Finsbury Park in July 1977 and withdrawn from Gateshead in June 1987. It was scrapped at Vic Berry, Leicester, in February 1990. (BR Database).



Now to 1964 at Southall, with 92240. It belonged to Southall MPD at the time, and was withdrawn in August 1965. (SLS). It went to Woodhams at Barry and is now at the Bluebell Railway and due for restoration commencing this year. (preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com).




The next two are from a sequence which my more persistent viewers will recognise. Both these were taken at Syston Junction in 1982 and I read the number of the first (without a high degree of confidence) as 31293 (D5826). It was allocated to March and withdrawn from there in November 1990 thence to Coopers Metals at Stratford MPD where it was scrapped in February 1994.

The second is from the series of an S & T workman at Syston Junction in 1982.





Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

I would guess that the 31 is on a Birmingham-Norwich service although I am not too certain of the direction of travel - it may be the opposite direction i.e. Norwich-Birmingham . This was a regular '31' turn in those days. I used to visit the area occasionally although I spent most of my train-spotting time further to the south of the MML..
Thanks for yet another happy memory, Brian.

Roger.

 

[Martin Shaw]

IMG 1727 is rather lovely, shades of Illiffe Stokes I think. The unidentified A3 certainly appears to have number ending in 5, so assuming that to be correct, it also has a diagram 94A boiler and a high position smokebox number plate and a what looks like banjo dome. On that basis there were 5 A3s with a GN tender and a number ending in 5. Of those, 2 can be discounted by virtue of the smokebox number plate position , 1 by not having Witte smoke deflectors until July 63, and 1 by having a diag 94HP boiler ( with a round dome), which leaves 60105 Victor Wild, a Grantham engine which was withdrawn in Jun 63 which might explain its appalling state. If the dome is actually round then it could be 60065 Knight of Thistle a New England engine that was withdrawn a year or so later. It would perhaps be my first choice if not for the dome cover quandry.
Regards
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

This is 47410 (D1509) at Hornsey on 25th August 1977. It was allocated to Finsbury Park in July 1977 and withdrawn from Gateshead in June 1987. It was scrapped at Vic Berry, Leicester, in February 1990. (BR Database).

The fashions automatically date the photo to the mid 70s...

 

[mickoo]

IMG 1727 is rather lovely, shades of Illiffe Stokes I think. The unidentified A3 certainly appears to have number ending in 5, so assuming that to be correct, it also has a diagram 94A boiler and a high position smokebox number plate and a what looks like banjo dome. On that basis there were 5 A3s with a GN tender and a number ending in 5. Of those, 2 can be discounted by virtue of the smokebox number plate position , 1 by not having Witte smoke deflectors until July 63, and 1 by having a diag 94HP boiler ( with a round dome), which leaves 60105 Victor Wild, a Grantham engine which was withdrawn in Jun 63 which might explain its appalling state. If the dome is actually round then it could be 60065 Knight of Thistle a New England engine that was withdrawn a year or so later. It would perhaps be my first choice if not for the dome cover quandry.
Regards
Martin

Looks like a streamlined dome to me, certainly not the round top hat style.

Pedant mode on, Banjo domes were only on very early engines (I'd have to check the records but think it's late GN or early LNER) and much much smaller, basically a narrow elongated extension to the early round domes. There wasn't many of them either if my memory is correct; the RCTS bible has a good picture of the smaller Banjo style, I'll see if I can dig that out at some point.

The later and much bigger ones appear to be called (according to all the blurb) streamlined to differentiate the two types. Pedant mode off.

 

[mickoo]

Looks like a streamlined dome to me, certainly not the round top hat style.

Pedant mode on, Banjo domes were only on very early engines (I'd have to check the records but think it's late GN or early LNER) and much much smaller, basically a narrow elongated extension to the early round domes. There wasn't many of them either if my memory is correct; the RCTS bible has a good picture of the smaller Banjo style, I'll see if I can dig that out at some point.

The later and much bigger ones appear to be called (according to all the blurb) streamlined to differentiate the two types. Pedant mode off.

I couldn't find the photo in RCTS, it must be somewhere else but the Phoenix Precision web site has good examples.

Banjo dome

L.N.E.R. Banjo Dome

L.N.E.R. Banjo Dome

www.phoenix-paints.co.uk

Streamlined dome

L.N.E.R. Streamlined Dome

L.N.E.R. Streamlined Dome

www.phoenix-paints.co.uk

I thought the banjos were physically smaller but it looks like they have roughly the same external dimensions as the later streamlined ones, maybe a few inches smaller here and there.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Mick
Pedantry has it's place and frankly A3 boilers is definitely one of them, it is perhaps inevitable that over 40 years and more of the class's existence there would be variations. Would I be correct in thinking, the dia 94HP boilers had the round dome and are essentially the Gresley boiler, the dia 94A boilers had the banjo dome and the dia 107 boilers (A4 ones but pressed to 220psi) had the streamline version. It seems that there were by 1960 only 4 locos with the 94HP boiler, 31 with the dia 107 boiler and the remainder (more or less 50% of them) with the dia 94A boiler. Fascinating stuff if your interested.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Lots of extras there, Mick and Martin, so thank you. Thanks for your reminiscences too, Roger and Dave. Some of these photos can be good social references for sure.

Today we're continuing to catch up with rescans.

This is Princess 46211 Queen Maud taken from a train on the Euston-Watford DC lines near Carpenders Park on 15th July 1960. This was an Edge Hill engine at the time, ending up at Crewe North from where it was withdrawn in October 1961. (SLS). It was despatched at Crewe Works in April 1962. (BR Database).



Black 5 44711 on a down mixed freight or more likely a parcels train alleged at Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960 but probably nearer to Bushey station. I believe the train to be coming from the direction of the troughs which would have been a bit to the south. When photographed it was a Rugby engine which moved around a lot before ending up at Edge Hill from where it was withdrawn in May 1968. (SLS). It ended up at T W Ward at Killamarsh where the last rites were enacted in July the same year. (Rail UK).



Royal Scot 46158 The Loyal Regiment on a passenger train in the vicinity of Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960. It was a Bushbury engine and another which moved around a bit before ending up at Annesley where it was withdrawn in October 1963. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works for disposal which was completed by the end of November 1963. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[LarryG]

Many years later, an 'unidentified 24' would have got the jungle drums going as they were being rapidly withdrawn. I was as guilty as any railway photographer, yet in the late 1950's they were ugly things whose sudden presence spelt the possible end of steam on that particular working. I didn't chase disappearing DMU's though........I still had some dignity...

 

[mickoo]

Mick
Pedantry has it's place and frankly A3 boilers is definitely one of them, it is perhaps inevitable that over 40 years and more of the class's existence there would be variations. Would I be correct in thinking, the dia 94HP boilers had the round dome and are essentially the Gresley boiler, the dia 94A boilers had the banjo dome and the dia 107 boilers (A4 ones but pressed to 220psi) had the streamline version. It seems that there were by 1960 only 4 locos with the 94HP boiler, 31 with the dia 107 boiler and the remainder (more or less 50% of them) with the dia 94A boiler. Fascinating stuff if your interested.
Martin

Sort of but it's a bit more complex from what I've read, I'm not in full LNER Pacific mode right now, that anorak hasn't been aired for some time and the workshop/book collection laid out right now is for the GWR King; but, here's a basic synopsis as best I can recall.

There's basically five types of dome, the early GN is a round topped one and I think they may have been chopped down a little when the engines became LNER for clearances, as they did for the cab roof.

Next up is the pure banjo which was devised after there were regulator, steam collection changes made in that area, my memory says multi gate regulator? But not sure if that's the right phrase or work that was carried out to need the change. I read somewhere that the banjos were original domes with extensions grafted on and again dim memory, there were only six or so on the first engines modified.

As more engine were modified it appears they streamlined the dome building process and probably stamped them out with a new press, that may be where the term streamlined comes from, it may also come from the fact that the waisted sides were straightened and thus streamlined in plan view.

Those are all for the 94A, the 94HP as far as I know always had the top hat dome, I don't think it's the same size or profile as the earlier GNR/LNER top hat domes, you'd have to check the drawings to be sure, if they even still exist.

The 107 always (again as far as I know) had the streamlined, I've not known any to have top hats and almost certainly not a genuine banjo as I think those domes were long gone by the time the 107 came into service.

 

[oldravendale]

I guess that's true about the 24s - and others - Larry. Sadly I didn't pick up a camera for railway photography after 1968 although I took photos of green diesels as incidentals to the steam photos before that date.

Thanks for further and better particulars, Mick. All grist to the mill.

Here's 8F 48180 in close proximity to Bushey Troughs - that's the water tower to feed them in the right background - on an up freight on 15th July 1960. It was a Kettering engine at the time, being transferred around before ending up at Oxley where it was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped in July 1967 at Cashmore's Great Bridge. (BR Database).



Standard Class 5 73013 also at Bushey Troughs with a down piped freight on 15th July 1960. It had recently moved to Willesden from Chester thereafter moving around the region before ending up at Bolton here it was withdrawn in May 1966. (SLS). It also went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped during August the same year. (BR Database).



A change of region now with E4 0-6-2T 32515 seen here at Hove Station on empty stock on 12th July 1960. It was shedded at Brighton which was it's final allocation being withdrawn from there in May 1961. (SLS). It was disposed of at Ashford Works in July the same year.



Brian