richard carr
Western Thunderer
Fair enough Mick, I have to agree with all that.
Richard
Richard
Mickoo's American Modelling Empire
- Thread starter mickoo
- Start date
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Pish...work bench (12' x 2') already done mateBuild the baseboards first so you can get all the toys out!
JB.
Layout bench starts tomorrow and hopefully done next week. To be fair that's only the sub base as I'll be laying modules on top, I want modules to be able to keep an open mind on future exhibiting or taking sections outside for photo shoots.
At the moment I'm on an temporary extension lead for power, it's a bit of a faff plugging in and out each time you want to go out there but basically I'm limited to lights and one other power tool.
Main power goes in on the 5th Apr, then I can do more work in there, right now, hacking Weaver cars I can do inside my normal workshop and even in the future will still probably do so.
Big Train James
Western Thunderer
The only readily available through sill covered hopper is the Atlas Trinity 5161 cu. ft. covered hopper. Pecos River Brass also imported the same car, but the Atlas is a very nice car and of course much cheaper than the brass import.
I was going to do the same conversion with the Atlas 5161, cutting it down from 3-bay to 2-bay. But in the end I decided that there were too many details that would need fixing to make it worth while. I'm part way along with development of etched art work instead. Being held up by the lack of certain prototype data. Plus general procrastination. But blaming the former is better for my self-esteem.
I'll be looking to sell spare 5161 project fodder at the upcoming show.
Lionel makes any number of ACF Centerflow cars, in various sizes and hopper counts. The run of the mill cars are chunky, not any better than the Weaver cars. However, there is a small slice of the Lionel portfolio that is done to a higher standard, and some examples of the ACF cars were part of that. The core of the cars is extruded aluminum, and the details are typically separately applied. I have some of these as well.
Overall, very nice cars. There are still a few niggles, the walkways aren't quite right, the outlet gates are an unusual type specific to certain commodities, that sort of thing. Obviously the couplers and wheel sets will need changing as well.
Most of the other nicer Lionel cars were of common earlier Pullman Standard types, boxcars, gondolas, open hoppers, and covered hoppers. They shared the same characteristics as the Centerflow hoppers, namely separately applied detailing.
I know that MTH also produced some cars with separate grabs and so on, but I've never bought any or actually seen any in person. But then I haven't looked that hard, I tend to avoid most MTH product.
I was going to do the same conversion with the Atlas 5161, cutting it down from 3-bay to 2-bay. But in the end I decided that there were too many details that would need fixing to make it worth while. I'm part way along with development of etched art work instead. Being held up by the lack of certain prototype data. Plus general procrastination. But blaming the former is better for my self-esteem.
I'll be looking to sell spare 5161 project fodder at the upcoming show.Lionel makes any number of ACF Centerflow cars, in various sizes and hopper counts. The run of the mill cars are chunky, not any better than the Weaver cars. However, there is a small slice of the Lionel portfolio that is done to a higher standard, and some examples of the ACF cars were part of that. The core of the cars is extruded aluminum, and the details are typically separately applied. I have some of these as well.
Overall, very nice cars. There are still a few niggles, the walkways aren't quite right, the outlet gates are an unusual type specific to certain commodities, that sort of thing. Obviously the couplers and wheel sets will need changing as well.
Most of the other nicer Lionel cars were of common earlier Pullman Standard types, boxcars, gondolas, open hoppers, and covered hoppers. They shared the same characteristics as the Centerflow hoppers, namely separately applied detailing.
I know that MTH also produced some cars with separate grabs and so on, but I've never bought any or actually seen any in person. But then I haven't looked that hard, I tend to avoid most MTH product.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
That's not a bad model for RTR to be fair, at least the walkways (albeit not quite right) are see through. I just missed a Weaver Gold ribbed Thrusill 2 bay covered hopper, I've heard of their Ultra line but not Gold, importantly it had all individual grab irons, not the typical molded ones, it actually looked pretty good to be honest.
I think the 'special' Lionel models are either from the JLC brand or the buy out/in of a brand called K line. The SD75M-I is from K line under the Lionel brand is rather good to be honest, also rather rare and sadly flawed in that for some obscure reason, they modeled a blower duct along the LH walkway
The Weaver 4 bay went into the chop shop and ended up thus.
As noted before there is an issue with the lower cill and it's thickness, the reason for that is due to the internal injection molding plug and it's straight sides, this means that the hopper side is too wide at the base and so the cill is truncated in width to retain the overall width.
I removed all the unwanted protrusions and joined the two halves together, I'm not overly worried about the joint as it'll get covered with the new skin, the roof on the other hand will need some filler but that's much later on.
You could stop right here, chop the walkway to fit, carve off the molded grab rails and refit roof hatches to suit your chosen model, plus a few other details, however I wanted to have more detailed end cages from brass angle....I may regret that choice later on.
The end cages and ladders were all removed and dressed back, the end bulkheads are clumsy, the massive gussets are solid and should have an angled edge on the outside, plus, the bulkhead is flush with the sides, hence the need for an external skin which protrudes past the end of the bulkhead.
Anyway, the RTR bulkheads were removed and new inner Plasticard ones fitted, these having a taper to the lower edge to bring the base of the hopper inward and increase the curvature of the side skin, not much but visually enough and more to scale.
I'm not worried about the old molded cill, it's going to get covered and a new cill fitted on top. I should have curved the sides before joining the two halves and fitting the new internal bulkheads, but it is what it is and the lower edge will straighten out once the skin and new lower cill get fitted.
I added an internal deck where the start of the new radius begins, it adds rigidity to the whole shell and ensures that at least the waist area is smooth and straight.
There endeth the work in plastic, the rest from here on in is a medium I'm more at home with, brass sheet.
The first step will be new bulkhead skins, these will be full width and bonded to the plastic core, with which adhesive I know not yet, super glue I've found can come adrift, same for Devcon 5 minute which can also be a pain to get a thin film. Ideally you want something that bonds well but not instantly. I'll almost certainly add some sort of additional mechanical fixing, typically a staple from the inside that passes through the plastic and brass and soldered outside, the resultant stub dressed back smooth and hidden by some surface detail.
Once those are in place then new deck, porches, patios, whatever they're called will be added to both ends, these need to be quite thick as they will hold the new bolsters for the trucks and drag boxes for the Kadee's. After that comes the new side skins and finally the new thicker profiled lower cill.
Once all that is done then detailing the end porches is in order and finally the fitting of the new end cages.
The only bit of plastic left showing on the shell will probably be the roof, though I may skin that too, primarily to give something for the new walkway supports to be soldered to.
I think the 'special' Lionel models are either from the JLC brand or the buy out/in of a brand called K line. The SD75M-I is from K line under the Lionel brand is rather good to be honest, also rather rare and sadly flawed in that for some obscure reason, they modeled a blower duct along the LH walkway
The Weaver 4 bay went into the chop shop and ended up thus.
As noted before there is an issue with the lower cill and it's thickness, the reason for that is due to the internal injection molding plug and it's straight sides, this means that the hopper side is too wide at the base and so the cill is truncated in width to retain the overall width.
I removed all the unwanted protrusions and joined the two halves together, I'm not overly worried about the joint as it'll get covered with the new skin, the roof on the other hand will need some filler but that's much later on.
You could stop right here, chop the walkway to fit, carve off the molded grab rails and refit roof hatches to suit your chosen model, plus a few other details, however I wanted to have more detailed end cages from brass angle....I may regret that choice later on.
The end cages and ladders were all removed and dressed back, the end bulkheads are clumsy, the massive gussets are solid and should have an angled edge on the outside, plus, the bulkhead is flush with the sides, hence the need for an external skin which protrudes past the end of the bulkhead.
Anyway, the RTR bulkheads were removed and new inner Plasticard ones fitted, these having a taper to the lower edge to bring the base of the hopper inward and increase the curvature of the side skin, not much but visually enough and more to scale.
I'm not worried about the old molded cill, it's going to get covered and a new cill fitted on top. I should have curved the sides before joining the two halves and fitting the new internal bulkheads, but it is what it is and the lower edge will straighten out once the skin and new lower cill get fitted.
I added an internal deck where the start of the new radius begins, it adds rigidity to the whole shell and ensures that at least the waist area is smooth and straight.
There endeth the work in plastic, the rest from here on in is a medium I'm more at home with, brass sheet.
The first step will be new bulkhead skins, these will be full width and bonded to the plastic core, with which adhesive I know not yet, super glue I've found can come adrift, same for Devcon 5 minute which can also be a pain to get a thin film. Ideally you want something that bonds well but not instantly. I'll almost certainly add some sort of additional mechanical fixing, typically a staple from the inside that passes through the plastic and brass and soldered outside, the resultant stub dressed back smooth and hidden by some surface detail.
Once those are in place then new deck, porches, patios, whatever they're called will be added to both ends, these need to be quite thick as they will hold the new bolsters for the trucks and drag boxes for the Kadee's. After that comes the new side skins and finally the new thicker profiled lower cill.
Once all that is done then detailing the end porches is in order and finally the fitting of the new end cages.
The only bit of plastic left showing on the shell will probably be the roof, though I may skin that too, primarily to give something for the new walkway supports to be soldered to.
Rob R
Western Thunderer
Mick,That's not a bad model for RTR to be fair, at least the walkways (albeit not quite right) are see through. I just missed a Weaver Gold ribbed Thrusill 2 bay covered hopper, I've heard of their Ultra line but not Gold, importantly it had all individual grab irons, not the typical molded ones, it actually looked pretty good to be honest.
I think the 'special' Lionel models are either from the JLC brand or the buy out/in of a brand called K line. The SD75M-I is from K line under the Lionel brand is rather good to be honest, also rather rare and sadly flawed in that for some obscure reason, they modeled a blower duct along the LH walkway
The Weaver 4 bay went into the chop shop and ended up thus.
View attachment 158634
As noted before there is an issue with the lower cill and it's thickness, the reason for that is due to the internal injection molding plug and it's straight sides, this means that the hopper side is too wide at the base and so the cill is truncated in width to retain the overall width.
View attachment 158635
I removed all the unwanted protrusions and joined the two halves together, I'm not overly worried about the joint as it'll get covered with the new skin, the roof on the other hand will need some filler but that's much later on.
View attachment 158636
You could stop right here, chop the walkway to fit, carve off the molded grab rails and refit roof hatches to suit your chosen model, plus a few other details, however I wanted to have more detailed end cages from brass angle....I may regret that choice later on.
View attachment 158637
View attachment 158638
The end cages and ladders were all removed and dressed back, the end bulkheads are clumsy, the massive gussets are solid and should have an angled edge on the outside, plus, the bulkhead is flush with the sides, hence the need for an external skin which protrudes past the end of the bulkhead.
Anyway, the RTR bulkheads were removed and new inner Plasticard ones fitted, these having a taper to the lower edge to bring the base of the hopper inward and increase the curvature of the side skin, not much but visually enough and more to scale.
View attachment 158639
View attachment 158640
I'm not worried about the old molded cill, it's going to get covered and a new cill fitted on top. I should have curved the sides before joining the two halves and fitting the new internal bulkheads, but it is what it is and the lower edge will straighten out once the skin and new lower cill get fitted.
View attachment 158641
I added an internal deck where the start of the new radius begins, it adds rigidity to the whole shell and ensures that at least the waist area is smooth and straight.
There endeth the work in plastic, the rest from here on in is a medium I'm more at home with, brass sheet.
The first step will be new bulkhead skins, these will be full width and bonded to the plastic core, with which adhesive I know not yet, super glue I've found can come adrift, same for Devcon 5 minute which can also be a pain to get a thin film. Ideally you want something that bonds well but not instantly. I'll almost certainly add some sort of additional mechanical fixing, typically a staple from the inside that passes through the plastic and brass and soldered outside, the resultant stub dressed back smooth and hidden by some surface detail.
Once those are in place then new deck, porches, patios, whatever they're called will be added to both ends, these need to be quite thick as they will hold the new bolsters for the trucks and drag boxes for the Kadee's. After that comes the new side skins and finally the new thicker profiled lower cill.
Once all that is done then detailing the end porches is in order and finally the fitting of the new end cages.
The only bit of plastic left showing on the shell will probably be the roof, though I may skin that too, primarily to give something for the new walkway supports to be soldered to.
I thought you had an all singing and dancing 3d printer?
Or does size matter?
Rob
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Big as the Form is, this will only just fit in and quite frankly won't print this very well; if it did, it would cost a fortune in resinMick,
I thought you had an all singing and dancing 3d printer?
Or does size matter?
Rob
The tests I did on the SD75 fuel tanks showed that 3D printers are not the best piece of equipment for that sort of shape, not if you want to avoid spending ages cleaning it all up and filing out the warping.
Printed hatches and discharge gates, air tanks and some brake bits yes, big slab sided objects, just forget it.
Right tools for the right job.
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richard carr
Western Thunderer
Mick
I'm very impressed with the clean cut of the body, what did you use to make it ?
Richard
I'm very impressed with the clean cut of the body, what did you use to make it ?
Richard
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
With a chop saw - the same way I install decoders 
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Richard, cheers, it's not that good close up
it's not that bad either Most of it will be skinned so the only really important part is making sure both sides are square and parallel when you join them.
The primary suspects were:-
Pencil to make initial marks at key points, center of roof, cant rail cill and lower cill.
Masking tape to get a reasonably straight line between the marks.
Razor saw to make the cut.
Bastard file to clean up and make smooth for joining.
Not shown is Butanone (Weaver shells respond well to this adhesive) which was applied liberally to the joint and the halves pushed tight up to squidge out the molten plastic, basically plastic welding. Leave an hour of so to fully set hard and sand back.
The backing strips were added to one half first and left to set and then the other half just fitted and clamped, squared up and Butanone applied to join the two as above.
The cutting and filing makes a hell of a mess
, it's sort of slightly static too so sticks to everything.
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
Not up to the standard of some around here, but these are some pics of the Pecos River replacement brass 3-bay chassis for Weaver hoppers.
I bodged the bolsters a bit to fit Atlas rotating cap roller bearing trucks. I also soldered brass stirrups to the corners to replace the plastic (& fragile) ones on the Weaver body shell. Kadees are a direct fit.
It repeats the 'solid' ends like the Weaver floor, no doubt more skilled modellers than me will cut it away to be open framed like the real thing. For fitting in the body, I used a few dabs of contact glue, in the unlikely event it ever needs removing.
I think I might have posted these pics before, but this time it's in aid of persuading Mick that he really needs a couple that Jim has going spare
I bodged the bolsters a bit to fit Atlas rotating cap roller bearing trucks. I also soldered brass stirrups to the corners to replace the plastic (& fragile) ones on the Weaver body shell. Kadees are a direct fit.
It repeats the 'solid' ends like the Weaver floor, no doubt more skilled modellers than me will cut it away to be open framed like the real thing. For fitting in the body, I used a few dabs of contact glue, in the unlikely event it ever needs removing.
I think I might have posted these pics before, but this time it's in aid of persuading Mick that he really needs a couple that Jim has going spare
Big Train James
Western Thunderer
The end cage floor area on the is actually solid on the prototype. It's an anomaly among covered hoppers.
Thanks for posting.
Thanks for posting.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
NiceNot up to the standard of some around here, but these are some pics of the Pecos River replacement brass 3-bay chassis for Weaver hoppers.
I bodged the bolsters a bit to fit Atlas rotating cap roller bearing trucks. I also soldered brass stirrups to the corners to replace the plastic (& fragile) ones on the Weaver body shell. Kadees are a direct fit.
View attachment 158705
View attachment 158706
View attachment 158707
View attachment 158708
View attachment 158709
It repeats the 'solid' ends like the Weaver floor, no doubt more skilled modellers than me will cut it away to be open framed like the real thing. For fitting in the body, I used a few dabs of contact glue, in the unlikely event it ever needs removing.
I think I might have posted these pics before, but this time it's in aid of persuading Mick that he really needs a couple that Jim has going spare
I've not seen them before, not that I remember anyway...mind I can't remember what I had for breakfast so that's not a particularly useful statement.....The weather is particularly effective, close to something I'd like to attempt on one or two of mine, suitable candidates have been lined up from my photo collection.
As Jim notes, the porch/end platform is a solid floor with an upturned end to add rigidity. From what I can tell there are often two holes in the corners behind the steps, presumably for drainage but they're not always present as seen on this one in Florida.
Yes I did climb up there and yes I did take a few photos, why else would I be up there
It was early morning with the mist burning off and no one was about so why the hell not 
There was also a PS......I say PS but it might be Trinity as the discharge gates are singular and the chutes wrap around the center cill, I think the older PS cars have dual gates either side of the center cill.......ribbed 3 bay to photograph as well, a passing interest was still the legible RFP lettering.
I have already requested the two spare Pecos River frames from Jim
I also need to start looking for some of these Atlas roller bearing trucks as the stock Weaver 2R ones with plastic wheels are rather underwhelming, new steel wheels might help though. In time I'd like to develop a decent 3D Barber truck with more authentic bolsters as they can easily be seen on Thrusill covered hoppers with their open ends.
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Scale7JB
Western Thunderer
I think that looks great!Not up to the standard of some around here, but these are some pics of the Pecos River replacement brass 3-bay chassis for Weaver hoppers.
I bodged the bolsters a bit to fit Atlas rotating cap roller bearing trucks. I also soldered brass stirrups to the corners to replace the plastic (& fragile) ones on the Weaver body shell. Kadees are a direct fit.
View attachment 158705
View attachment 158706
View attachment 158707
View attachment 158708
View attachment 158709
It repeats the 'solid' ends like the Weaver floor, no doubt more skilled modellers than me will cut it away to be open framed like the real thing. For fitting in the body, I used a few dabs of contact glue, in the unlikely event it ever needs removing.
I think I might have posted these pics before, but this time it's in aid of persuading Mick that he really needs a couple that Jim has going spare
JB.
Big Train James
Western Thunderer
The ribbed side hopper is built by Thrall rather than Pullman-Standard. There were any number of very similar looking cars from various manufacturers, I usually look at the jacking pads at the bottom corners of the side sheets as indicators of who built a car.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Jordan, (@Jordan),I bodged the bolsters a bit to fit Atlas rotating cap roller bearing trucks.
You have taught, for so long, that the SOO livery is Red /Grey and yet you have a wagon written SOO in green(?) - how does this fit into your teachings?
Those rotating cap thingies, my understanding of those items is based soo-lely on UK practice and so could be inappropriate to the US scene, maybe you can explain. I think that the rotating cap is a dust cover/oil seal between the inner and outer bearing races, also retains the inner race in position on the journal. So what retains the outer race in the axlebox housing other than gravity?
regards, Graham
Scale7JB
Western Thunderer
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
So nothing mechanical... just a combination of gravity and the weight of the wagon.
How does it work in the UK where some of the roller bearing journals are "enclosed" by an axlebox, for example the VGA/VKA vans?
regards, Graham
mickoo
Western Thunderer
There are no retention straps on US truck roller bearings.
The same applies to some UK stock as well.
Typically UK stock is sprung at the axle box not at the bolster as in the US. Springing the bearing cup reduces the un-sprung mass and thus vertical forces to the track. Essentially only the axle and bearing cups are un-sprung, on US trucks the un-sprung mass also involves 50% of the truck mass. Typical un-sprung mass in the UK is in the region of 1.25 - 2 Tons, in the US it'll be close (truck design and weight dependent) to 3-5 Tons, I don't know how much a fitted out Barber truck shell weights.
The lowest un-sprung mass (modern railways 1960's onward where it became more relevant due to higher speeds and loads) I've seen written in the UK is for class 86 when SAB resilient rubber centered wheels were fitted; the original axle hung ones were close to 2.75 tons and pretty much destroyed a lot of the WCML. I believe the whole fleet were restricted to 80 mph until new wheels were fitted (86/2, 86/1 ....three engines...were fitted with trial class 87 bogies for they operational lives as far as I know), those that were not (86/0, later 86/3 when MU was fitted) remained restricted and allocated to freight diagrams. Modern Railways magazine in the 60-70s often had detailed write ups of all these goings on with loadings and weight/force graphs.
The majority of UK/Euro (in fact most modern UK trucks are Euro designed and origin) stock is still cupped bearings, swapping out is no harder than the US, the small T safety strap just needs removing before the axle can be dropped out.
Regarding SOO colours, when was the last time you saw UK stock in blue and yellow or brunswick green
Like the UK, many US Railroads have a completely different paint scheme for stock, both freight and (historical) passenger.
The only two Railroads I know off hand (and I'm not going to run around checking them all this morning) where colours are the same are UP and Amtrak, even then Amtrak is a mish mash of evolving schemes over the years but there primary colours are still there in most cases.
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Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Thank you Mick for an informative response to my questions.
I have long puzzled about the fitment of roller bearings to freight stock so the video from JB and your text / photos above sort that mis-shapen bubble good and proper.
Brunswick Green - April 2nd 2022 at Did. (the great reveal of the repatriated ex-pat).
thank you, regards, Graham
I have long puzzled about the fitment of roller bearings to freight stock so the video from JB and your text / photos above sort that mis-shapen bubble good and proper.
Brunswick Green - April 2nd 2022 at Did. (the great reveal of the repatriated ex-pat).
thank you, regards, Graham
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
What he said.
There were many variations of colors on Soo freight stock. Some had certain significance - I believe there was a fleet of Soo boxcars with blue doors rather than red, they were for potato traffic. Can't recall where I read that, though.Even the loco white (or very very light gray) & red had some variations in it's time, especially when a slanted SOO logo was tried out.
White & red replaced maroon & gold (& black for Switchers), and was being superceded by all-over candy apple red, when CP Rail took over completely in the early 90s & decreed that CP red was to be The Color.
Gravity does seem to play a large part in holding things together on US trains. Even the cars themselves only rest on the trucks - no big screw holding them on like on our models!! Apparently one of the reasons behind it is that less damage is done with loose trucks when there's a derailment.
And they do derailments properly over there. Makes me wonder why modellers get so het up about it happening on their layouts - it's prototypical....!!!