Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Eastsidepilot]

Looking at the Shed Bash site for Southall in '64 it shows the visits recorded in January loco's 6108, 10 & 32 were on shed all 81C and in November loco's 6110, 17, 25, 32, 39, 41, 43, 60, 63, 65 & 67 all 81C.
Also noted in February was 6159 81E.

Col.

 

[oldravendale]

Hmmmm! Certainly a lack of attention to detail on my behalf so, Simon, thanks for pointing out that the two 61XX tanks are different locos. Indeed they are. I also agree that the number plate could be interpreted as 613X rather than 615X. Also just wondering why you've ruled out 6136 as a possibility (I assume your description of it as 6163 is a typo). It was in the Didcot/Oxford area until 1965 so would not have been unheard of at Southall. Thanks for proposing 6135 as a candidate too but we can discount that - see below.

Dave, your photo rules out 6159. Tim himself has a photo of 6135 at Old Oak in 1964 with smokebox door lamp iron but it still carries the smokebox door numberplate, as does your photo. (Proving that I should have checked for other photographic evidence!) I agree that 6158 is a most unlikely candidate for the reason you describe.

Col - your post sent me down the rabbit hole of looking for other photos of 61XX locos at Southall. Here's one of 6156 with lamp iron on the smokebox - in 1965 but to my mind a possible candidate for the second of the photos. It's also a photo I took!



The first of the two photos in post #1034 carries an 81D shed plate. In 1964, and in the 613X and 615X series there were only two locos of this class allocated to Reading, 6131 and 6134. I don't have a photo of 6131 but I have the other one. And it's mine again! Southall 1965 and both these were taken on the same day, 5th December. No smokebox number plate and the lamp iron on the door.



If you point out that this is all circumstantial I agree. However, to my mind both the above are possible or even likely candidates - unless you know different! In any event please accept my grateful thanks for, at the very least, proving what the locos in these two photos are not. Incidentally, Simon, that photo of 6135 at Old Oak in 1964 put up by Dave appears to be unlined black rather than unlined green, notwithstanding the difficulty of interpreting real colours when images are printed. I remember a certain number of these locos in black so it's entirely possible.

I have more Southall photos lined up but have expended more time than I intended on this thread today so will stop here.

Brian

 

[daifly]

This is 6135 in October 63 and it's looking in good nick in green and is unlikely to have been painted black in the intervening months.

Here is 6131 on 10Jun64. Other photo details including location are unknown.

Dave

 

[daifly]

The first of the two photos in post #1034 carries an 81D shed plate. In 1964, and in the 613X and 615X series there were only two locos of this class allocated to Reading, 6131 and 6134. I don't have a photo of 6131 but I have the other one. And it's mine again! Southall 1965 and both these were taken on the same day, 5th December. No smokebox number plate and the lamp iron on the door.

Brian
In post #1034 we were in 1963 when there were possibly 11 61xx's shedded at Reading for at least part of the year. 6103/6/7/18/9/22/31/34/38/61/4.
Now we've jumped to 1964! In 1964, there were 7 possibilities. 6103/7/22/31/4/5/61. Source - Pannier Papers No. 2 - Irwell Press.
Dave

 

[SimonT]

Brian,

Incidentally, Simon, that photo of 6135 at Old Oak in 1964 put up by Dave appears to be unlined black rather than unlined green)

I wrote:
There is a photo of 6135 in the Pannier Papers at Paddington, dated 7Aug63. It is described as being plain green (late totem as well)

Even Dave described 6135 as being unlined green!
Hopefuly we are now singing the same hymn, even if we still haven't worked out which locos they are
Simon

 

[Keith Phillips]

6131 looks like it is on the Down Relief having passed Maidenhead in the background. Could be wrong.

Keith

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

6131 looks like it is on the Down Relief having passed Maidenhead in the background. Could be wrong.

A good call as I narrowed my search to this area mainly around Taplow (and east and west of Reading). Given the photo appears to have been taken late on a summer evening (long shadows) and it is possible the sun is setting in a WNW direction so the train is heading towards Reading. A good photo of Maidenhead goods shed would seal it.

I did check 6131 was allocated to Reading throughout it's career.

 

[Dan Randall]

A good call as I narrowed my search to this area mainly around Taplow (and east and west of Reading). Given the photo appears to have been taken late on a summer evening (long shadows) and it is possible the sun is setting in a WNW direction so the train is heading towards Reading. A good photo of Maidenhead goods shed would seal it.

I did check 6131 was allocated to Reading throughout it's career.

I think Keith’s nailed the location, as being Maidenhead and I found this picture of the goods shed online….

L405 Maidenhead 22 November 1986

The goods shed was still standing until relatively recently, but was swept away to make room for sidings to house those awful purple and white, toiletless electric trains, that now blight the railway between Paddington and Reading. Brunel must be spinning in his grave…

Speaking of Brunel, here’s a view from Google Maps, showing some houses in Brunel Road (what are the chances? ), which I’m pretty sure, from the chimneys & rooflines, are the ones seen behind 6131….




Regards

Dan

 

[AJC]

The goods shed was still standing until relatively recently, but was swept away to make room for sidings to house those awful purple and white, toiletless electric trains, that now blight the railway between Paddington and Reading.

While at risk of distracting from the topic in hand, I wonder whether I can offer a contrary view? Having sought out increasingly elaborate ways of avoiding the dire service GWR offered when I lived in Ealing (short trains of 6 or 9 cars and cramped 2+3 seating (the Southern would use 10 or 12) operating at poor frequencies, including a 2-car train out of a major terminal in the evening peak - the Greenford auto in all but name - offered out of a badly-designed and inaccessible station*, I welcome the electrics which are a proper length, at least.

The Thames Valley relief lines should have been electrified when they modernised Paddington 30 years ago - but I take your point about the toilets. All the way to Reading is a bit of a stretch, but that's the decision that's been made and little worse than a long run on the Jubilee or Central lines or a Shenfield stopper which are the standards being applied, rightly or wrongly.

This is a long way from the topic in hand, I admit, but the changing railway is what Tim saw and it continues to change.


Adam

*It was Ealing Broadway, but West Ealing and Acton Mainline were every bit as bad in different ways.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave and Simon. 6135 is green! That photo at Old Oak definitely looks black, though. The photo of 6131 with smokebox plate rules it out as a candidate for the two pictures in question so much appreciated.

Keith, Dave (of the Yorkshire flavour), Dan and Adam - thanks to you all for spreading the wings of this thread. It's always of interest to me to see and learn things outside the strict confines of the subject in hand.

For these three images we're still at Southall, and in 1964. First is another 61XX tank, this time easily identified as 6159 from the smokebox door plate, so if I'd done a bit more research using the images in my possession I'd not have misrepresented either of the locos earlier on in post #1034. It's carrying an 81E Didcot shedplate which was its final allocation and confirms the book entries. I'll not repeat the disposal info which is in the earlier post.



2884 Class 2-8-0 3866 is carrying an 81A, Old Oak Common shed plate. According to all the references I've found so far it was never officially shedded there. BR Database advises that it moved from Aberdare to Neath in May 1964. The Locoshed book for May/June 1964 also shows the allocation as Neath. It actually made the move to Southall but not until the end of November 1964 so perhaps we have confirmation of the likely date. It was withdrawn from Southall in early July 1965 and went to Cashmore's Newport and was scrapped in October. Alongside is Grange 6877, Llanfair Grange complete with nameplate, withdrawn from Worcester in March 1965 which was its allocation in 1964.



Finally for today a Grange with another unfitted LMS brake van. Could this be 6877 again? The presence of the nameplate, quite unusual for the date, the streak on the boiler and the cylinder suggest it might well be. 6877 was scrapped at Swindon Works at the end of April 1965. A nice view too of the "bridge of terror" which provided the official pedestrian route to the shed. Once you were on there you could be seen trying to make a surreptitious entry, and that's without the hundred yards or so at ground level without any cover to get to the protection of the locos outside the shed. It wasn't until many years later I learned that there was an alternative and well protected route from the canal at the back of the shed. Oh, happy days!



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

These three are Southall 1964 again. First 2884 Class 2-8-0 3819. It had moved from Westbury to Didcot in October 1961 and was withdrawn in December 1964. It then went to Cashmore's in Newport for scrapping which occurred in April 1965.



It's rather a shame about the fog bar but I like the signal box in the photo. Nevertheless I've remasked which creates more of a regular portrait photo.



This one also has a fog bar but pretty much in the centre of the photo which makes it difficult to mask out satisfactorily, but I've had a go. (I recognise that I could paint the fog out but that would take a lot of time and effort for a photo which hardly justifies it). Note the ganger to the left of the loco working on the slow lines apparently without a lookout and no hi-vis vets in those days. This is Castle 7003, Elmley Castle, which went from Gloucester Horton Road to St Philips Marsh in April 1964 and then back to Gloucester in June before withdrawal in August. This loco also went to Cashmore's Newport where it was scrapped during December.



Here's an attempt at a remask in A4 format which makes a not terribly satisfactory picture.



Finally for today 4575 2-6-2T 5531, seen previously and detailed in post #995. Another wagon question here - note the third vehicle which looks a bit incongruous coupled in with all the steel minerals. Are there any thoughts as to what this would be? The absence of a brake van suggests this was a shunting job, or perhaps this was a cut of coal wagons for the shed - the presence of an oil tanker at the end suggests that this could be the case. Also note the Parcels Car in the slow down platform behind the loco. It appears to be towing another vehicle.



Here's a close up. That part of the rake appears to be all coal and in decent sizes too, for the late date.....



Brian

 

[Overseer]

Another wagon question here - note the third vehicle which looks a bit incongruous coupled in with all the steel minerals. Are there any thoughts as to what this would be?

It is a BR 16t mineral, one of 6000 built for France at the end of WW2. The French sold them to BR as soon as they could replace them. Side cupboard type doors only. Parkside do a nice kit.

 

[AJC]

It is a BR 16t mineral, one of 6000 built for France at the end of WW2. The French sold them to BR as soon as they could replace them. Side cupboard type doors only. Parkside do a nice kit.

Fraser is quite right: these are an odd mix from a design perspective, with resolutely RCH type underpinnings married to a continental 'style' body. In size terms they were quite out of step with what the French were used to, being shorter and thus lower in capacity. They were returned by SNCF in 1953 - hence the BR numbering and diagram 1/112 being issued for them - and had an odd mix of fittings, many retaining RIV style self-contained buffers, but all were built with 1' 8 1/2" buffers and screw couplings. The former were kept by BR -as can be seen here: c.1959 - Water Orton, Warwickshire. - the latter removed.

Here's one in 'as built' contdition: BR/SNCF 16T Mineral MoS cupboard door | SNCF 562055 - note the lamp iron, lashing rings and RIV style label holder.

The cupboard doors were reckoned a problem in the UK and apparently caused accidents, whether through not being secured properly or bursting open under load: not sure. Latterly, all were branded (just visible in Tim's picture) 'Not to be used for PW Ballast or Engineers Materials', like the SR 8 plank opens, though I suspect that was down to overloading as much as ill-use. An example here as an internal user: 041476 - departmentals.com. Being non-standard, they were withdrawn early and many sold into private use (Pointer Group had some for example). Of course, @hrmspaul has a gallery: BR/SNCF 16T Mineral MoS cupboard door.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Fraser and Adam for the info about that wagon. It looked so distinctly "foreign" that I thought it might be a rarity.

These four photos are all "Southall 1964."

I've studied this one long and hard to try to get an identification. It appears to have been the subject of attention by trophy hunters as it's missing the smokebox and cab side numbers although is still carrying a nameplate. This is, however, difficult to read. Using the date and the 81A shed plate I've come up with some alternatives. I can rule out 4080, 7008, 7013, 7029, 7032 and 7035 as these were all double chimney. That leaves 4082 and 5014, Windsor or Goodrich Castles. That nameplate has too many letters to be either, so I'm back where I started!

If anyone has any thoughts about other alternatives I'll be interested to hear - please.



43XX 2-6-0 6337 without a shed plate. In 1964 it went to Didcot at the end of November 1963 and was withdrawn in July 1964 after which it went to Cashmore's Great Bridge and was scrapped at the end of the year.



Finally two shots of Manor 7805, Broome Manor, possibly quite handy for model builders from this unusually high viewpoint. Manors were comparatively rare visitors to Southall - despite my many visits I only ever saw one - although they were seen slightly more often towards the end of GWR steam. 7805 was allocated to Tyseley in June 1963 and was withdrawn in December 1964. It also went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge and was scrapped in April 1965.





Brian

 

[daifly]

It’s not Goodrich Castle which had a Hawksworth tender in 1964!
Dave

 

[AJC]

I reckon that's Donnington Castle (4089), based purely on the plate (I quite like the Castle class, but now nothing about them, really). The first letter certainly looks like a 'D' and the double angled descenders on the 'N's seem clear, it was withdrawn in September '64, the name is the right length and it had the right combination of lost plates and tender: Steam on Shed - Reading

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the confirmation, Dave.

Adam - I think you've probably got it. My mistake was looking for Castles shown as 81A, Old Oak Common, in 1964. In fact, as I've expounded previously, the shed codes or absence of them really meant nothing at this time so it would have made sense for me to check on the Southall allocation as well. The SLS show 4089 as transferred to Reading from Old Oak at the very end of 1963, then from Reading to Southall at the end of June 1964. It was finally withdrawn from Southall in September 1964 and went to Hayes, Bridgend where it was scrapped in January 1965.

It's as perfect a fit as I could have ever hoped!

Thanks indeed.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Another three at Southall 1964.

57XX 0-6-0PT 4608 had been a resident at Southall since at least 1948. There is a suggestion that it was withdrawn from Old Oak Common which is possible as that shed didn't shut to steam until March 1965. However, it seems more likely that 4608 remained at Southall and was withdrawn from there at the end of September 1964 - withdrawal dates agree. It went to Birds, Risca, Newport for scrapping and was disposed of by the end of the year.

In the "prototype for everything" department note the broken handrail at the second hand rail knob from the front.



4575 Class 5545 light engine passing the signal box at Southall. This was the subject of post #1001 where details can be found.



Finally for today another 4575 class, in this case 5531, possibly on a loco coal train. It's certainly making in the general direction of the shed rather than on to the adjacent main line. This loco was previously detailed in post #995.



Brian

 

[LarryG]

They're certainly huge lumps of coal ~ too large for domestic fireplaces. The all-rust mineral wagon looks to have had its end door stripe re-stencilled on.

 

[oldravendale]

Continuing "Southall 1964".

It's difficult to read the number on this one as the first digit is obscured but I believe it to be 7910 Hown Hall on a substantial milk train almost certainly of empties on the down fast line. This was no stranger to Southall, having been shedded there when new in 1950 and resident at Old Oak Common from the end of November 1963 until May 1964 when it moved to Reading. It was at Oxford by November of the same year and was withdrawn in February 1965 whence it went to Swindon for scrapping which was done by the end of May.

It's difficult to determine whether that's a bubble car in the refuelling station next to the shed but it would have been normal to see one here, the ex GWR railcars having left the scene by now.



I think that this image with slightly tighter masking makes a better photo.



This is a shot of Southall Shed from the "bridge of doom". DMUs to right and left - these had replaced the 61XX hauled suburban trains a year or two previously. Southall was one of the mid sized GWR sheds, mainly for freight, although by this time one could expect to see almost anything here from the GWR and Standard stables (9Fs being most common) together with Black 5s and 8Fs.



Finally two of another 4575 2-6-2T, in this case 5508. It moved from Neyland to Southall at the end of November 1963, was withdrawn at the end of 1964 and went to Cox & Danks, Park Royal for scrapping where it was disposed of by the end of April 1965.



Brian