Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
AJC
Western Thunderer
I very strongly suspect that it is Plaistow, though I can't find a similar view to confirm that online. This one, however, clearly shows some missing roof: Plaistow Shed from the Sewer Bank - the layered brickwork on the outside is presumably decorative and not repeated inside. Here's the same engine in October '57: 29 October 1957 - Plaistow, London - 41983.
Adam
Adam
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Helpful stuff all round there, so thanks chaps. I'll be surprised if I don't find a negative sleeve with a photo alleged to be Plaistow but which turns out to be Sunderland..
We've moved now to "Heaton MPD. 2nd September 1956". This is A3 4-6-2 60100, "Spearmint". It was a long time Haymarket resident - from 1940 actually - and moved to St Margarets in January 1963. Withdrawal followed in June 1965 followed, doubtless, by the undignified drag to Darlington Works where the deed was done at the end of the same month.
Brian
We've moved now to "Heaton MPD. 2nd September 1956". This is A3 4-6-2 60100, "Spearmint". It was a long time Haymarket resident - from 1940 actually - and moved to St Margarets in January 1963. Withdrawal followed in June 1965 followed, doubtless, by the undignified drag to Darlington Works where the deed was done at the end of the same month.
Brian
Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
Spearmint was Norman McKillops (Toram Beg) engine for many years. I have a friend who is his Nephew and he has told me lots of stories of his exploits. Toram Beg is Wee Norman in Gaelic. He was a chain smoker of Woodbines and liked a pint of Bass, both of which my friend copied although he has managed to throw the tobacco habit.
Ian.
Ian.
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
The Whitelegg tank is definitely at Plaistow shed which became a sub shed to Tilbury, a bit of interesting reading here https://www.whatreallyhappenedtosteam.co.uk/pdf/WRHTS-ESS-article-113.pdf
Col.
Col.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Great stuff, Ian. Thank you. This sort of detail really brings a (not very good!) photo to life.
And Col - that's the final confirmation of the location I reckon. It's a good addition to the info about Plaistow as well.
There's four photos here for the price of one. In the main they are grouped together because they are not very good. I also need to correct some of Tim's info.
First, though, I'm convinced that the photo I put up in post 421 which was said to be at St Rollox was, in fact, taken on this trip. There are too many similarities in the neg characteristics for it to be anywhere else or at any other time so I suspect Tim's memory has said "that loco couldn't possibly have been at Crewe. It must have been on one of my trips to Scotland." Well, we now know how it came to be at Crewe.
These are all attributed, incorrectly, to Crewe Works 1954. Well, Crewe Works it most certainly is. The not so very subtle clue to the correct date is in the headboard on the excursion loco (Britannia 70032, Tennyson) - Ian Allan Trains Illustrated Excursion with a reporting number of W681. Six Bells Junction shows that to be a train which ran on 5th April 1956 from London Euston to Crewe Works and back hauled throughout by 70032. The motive power was scheduled to be a "West Country" but we don't know why that didn't materialise. At the time 70032 was a Longsight loco, so why one from nearer to home wasn't used I've no idea. Although this is titled "Crewe Works Yard 1954" we now know the truth. School caps and raincoats are de rigeur.
The next which I can be confident was taken on the same day was entitled "Crewe Works 1954" but we can put that right. It's L & Y 0-6-0ST 51446 of 1881. It was at Crewe for a long time, finally submitting to the scrap man at Crewe in 1962 after a life of more than 80 years.
This one is described as "Webb 0-4-2T Bissel Truck. Crewe 1954." Apart from the date that is correct. 47862 was a Webb LNWR design of 1901. It had been at Crewe for a long time, certainly since 1948, and lasted until the beginning of November 1956 so Tim photographed this very shortly before withdrawal. It was the last of its class and scrapped at Crewe Works by the end of the year.
Finally "9F in pink undercoat. Crewe 1954". Well, it's 5th April 1956 again and the number is indecipherable. I don't think I ever saw a loco in works in a pink undercoat. Is there any particular reason why this should have been applied?
Brian
And Col - that's the final confirmation of the location I reckon. It's a good addition to the info about Plaistow as well.
There's four photos here for the price of one. In the main they are grouped together because they are not very good. I also need to correct some of Tim's info.
First, though, I'm convinced that the photo I put up in post 421 which was said to be at St Rollox was, in fact, taken on this trip. There are too many similarities in the neg characteristics for it to be anywhere else or at any other time so I suspect Tim's memory has said "that loco couldn't possibly have been at Crewe. It must have been on one of my trips to Scotland." Well, we now know how it came to be at Crewe.
These are all attributed, incorrectly, to Crewe Works 1954. Well, Crewe Works it most certainly is. The not so very subtle clue to the correct date is in the headboard on the excursion loco (Britannia 70032, Tennyson) - Ian Allan Trains Illustrated Excursion with a reporting number of W681. Six Bells Junction shows that to be a train which ran on 5th April 1956 from London Euston to Crewe Works and back hauled throughout by 70032. The motive power was scheduled to be a "West Country" but we don't know why that didn't materialise. At the time 70032 was a Longsight loco, so why one from nearer to home wasn't used I've no idea. Although this is titled "Crewe Works Yard 1954" we now know the truth. School caps and raincoats are de rigeur.
The next which I can be confident was taken on the same day was entitled "Crewe Works 1954" but we can put that right. It's L & Y 0-6-0ST 51446 of 1881. It was at Crewe for a long time, finally submitting to the scrap man at Crewe in 1962 after a life of more than 80 years.
This one is described as "Webb 0-4-2T Bissel Truck. Crewe 1954." Apart from the date that is correct. 47862 was a Webb LNWR design of 1901. It had been at Crewe for a long time, certainly since 1948, and lasted until the beginning of November 1956 so Tim photographed this very shortly before withdrawal. It was the last of its class and scrapped at Crewe Works by the end of the year.
Finally "9F in pink undercoat. Crewe 1954". Well, it's 5th April 1956 again and the number is indecipherable. I don't think I ever saw a loco in works in a pink undercoat. Is there any particular reason why this should have been applied?
Brian
John K
Western Thunderer
Hi Brian
I apologise for being late to the party.
I agree that you and Mickoo are correct in thinking that the photo in post #699 was taken at Plaistow shed.
For family and geographical reasons the LT&SR is a bit of a specialist area for me.
The shot in #699 was taken from inside the shed looking out and the camera is pointing pretty close to West.
There is no roof at the front of the shed. It went missing (courtesy of the Luftwaffe) on Saturday 7th December 1940. For reasons best know to the LMS and then BR Eastern Region, the front part of the roof was never rebuilt.
I have attached a pic from a mid-summer afternoon in 1945 showing the view from the other side of the shed showing the lack of roof and the upright of the steel frame which is visible in your photo.
I hope this might be of interest.
Best wishes
John
Photo credit J R Mann.
I apologise for being late to the party.
I agree that you and Mickoo are correct in thinking that the photo in post #699 was taken at Plaistow shed.
For family and geographical reasons the LT&SR is a bit of a specialist area for me.
The shot in #699 was taken from inside the shed looking out and the camera is pointing pretty close to West.
There is no roof at the front of the shed. It went missing (courtesy of the Luftwaffe) on Saturday 7th December 1940. For reasons best know to the LMS and then BR Eastern Region, the front part of the roof was never rebuilt.
I have attached a pic from a mid-summer afternoon in 1945 showing the view from the other side of the shed showing the lack of roof and the upright of the steel frame which is visible in your photo.
I hope this might be of interest.
Best wishes
John
Photo credit J R Mann.
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mickoo
Western Thunderer
Crewe works painted their engines pink for a long time, even in my spotting days there were repaired 47's, and new HST, Class 56 being built there in pink.
There are three colours used on the base layers so I was told on one Crewe works visit, certainly in diesel days. Chromate green which is the etch primer so to speak, then comes the pink filler primer, then a thin grey overcoat, the idea being as you rubbed it down the pink begins to show through as it is smoothed, the idea being you didn't go through to the green layer.
Once it was all smoothed out then a complete grey coat was added and then the final top coats were added.
I have an inkling Derby did the same but I never recall seeing any Doncaster engines in pink, just green and grey.
If the date is accurate, then you only have a handful of engines to choose from.
92080 into traffic on 14th Apr
92081 into traffic on 23rd Apr
92082 into traffic on 2rd Mar
Crewe was turning out a 9F every two weeks at this stage, 92079 entered traffic on 29th Mar so too early.
I personally would go with 92080, primer on the 5th gives them 9 days for top coat, steaming and running in and any remedial work required before release to traffic, very easy to achieve in those days.
I think I can see the number outline, certainly the 2, the rest might be clearer with adjustment to contrast or manipulation.
There are three colours used on the base layers so I was told on one Crewe works visit, certainly in diesel days. Chromate green which is the etch primer so to speak, then comes the pink filler primer, then a thin grey overcoat, the idea being as you rubbed it down the pink begins to show through as it is smoothed, the idea being you didn't go through to the green layer.
Once it was all smoothed out then a complete grey coat was added and then the final top coats were added.
I have an inkling Derby did the same but I never recall seeing any Doncaster engines in pink, just green and grey.
If the date is accurate, then you only have a handful of engines to choose from.
92080 into traffic on 14th Apr
92081 into traffic on 23rd Apr
92082 into traffic on 2rd Mar
Crewe was turning out a 9F every two weeks at this stage, 92079 entered traffic on 29th Mar so too early.
I personally would go with 92080, primer on the 5th gives them 9 days for top coat, steaming and running in and any remedial work required before release to traffic, very easy to achieve in those days.
I think I can see the number outline, certainly the 2, the rest might be clearer with adjustment to contrast or manipulation.
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Dave Holt
Western Thunderer
Brian.
You may have already mentioned this earlier in this series, if so apologies, but what make and model of scanner are you using to digitize Tim's photos/negatives? I've got quite a few 35 mm colour slides in plastic or card mounts that I'd like to scan, so advice on suitable device would be appreciated.
Dave.
You may have already mentioned this earlier in this series, if so apologies, but what make and model of scanner are you using to digitize Tim's photos/negatives? I've got quite a few 35 mm colour slides in plastic or card mounts that I'd like to scan, so advice on suitable device would be appreciated.
Dave.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for the extra info, John, and also for filling in the gap in my knowledge about pink undercoat, Mick. There's every chance your proposed number for the 9F is the right one.
Dave - I use an ancient Epson 4490 scanner. Discontinued years ago, but scans well and I see no reason to replace it. If there's a disadvantage it's a bit slow. I see them from time to time on ebay at what seems to me high prices but I wonder if that's because the neg holders can get damaged quite easily and replacements have not until recently been easy to find. I think you may find some comments about more up to date and potentially better machines from other contributors.
For today three random shots of frankly somewhat indeterminate value. First is "Bristol Bath Road 1956". One of my all time favourite classes because they were so anachronistic, a "Dukedog", in this case 9011. We have to cast some doubt on the veracity of Tim's info on this one as well. BRDatabase advises that 9011 was in store at Swindon in 1955 and there's no evidence of it being reallocated. The April/May 1957 Locoshed Book shows 9011 still allocated to Swindon. Rail UK confirms Swindon as the last shed and withdrawal as July 1957 and BRDatabase that scrapping took place at Swindon in September the same year. Al things considered I reckon this photo was taken on one of Tim's forays to Swindon probably around the year to which it's attributed..
A weird one, this. Described as "North Wales March 1965 LNWR line." It looks to me like an Ivatt 2-6-2T on a local pick-up goods but the loco ID and precise location are unknown. Nice range of wagons although probably with insufficient detail to be of any use as prototype material.
Finally for today "Near Carlisle Upperby MPD. July 1956." Clearly a Coronation but unidentifiable. Decent range of wagons in the background, though.
Brian
Dave - I use an ancient Epson 4490 scanner. Discontinued years ago, but scans well and I see no reason to replace it. If there's a disadvantage it's a bit slow. I see them from time to time on ebay at what seems to me high prices but I wonder if that's because the neg holders can get damaged quite easily and replacements have not until recently been easy to find. I think you may find some comments about more up to date and potentially better machines from other contributors.
For today three random shots of frankly somewhat indeterminate value. First is "Bristol Bath Road 1956". One of my all time favourite classes because they were so anachronistic, a "Dukedog", in this case 9011. We have to cast some doubt on the veracity of Tim's info on this one as well. BRDatabase advises that 9011 was in store at Swindon in 1955 and there's no evidence of it being reallocated. The April/May 1957 Locoshed Book shows 9011 still allocated to Swindon. Rail UK confirms Swindon as the last shed and withdrawal as July 1957 and BRDatabase that scrapping took place at Swindon in September the same year. Al things considered I reckon this photo was taken on one of Tim's forays to Swindon probably around the year to which it's attributed..
A weird one, this. Described as "North Wales March 1965 LNWR line." It looks to me like an Ivatt 2-6-2T on a local pick-up goods but the loco ID and precise location are unknown. Nice range of wagons although probably with insufficient detail to be of any use as prototype material.
Finally for today "Near Carlisle Upperby MPD. July 1956." Clearly a Coronation but unidentifiable. Decent range of wagons in the background, though.
Brian
LarryG
Western Thunderer
Re The Ivatt 2-6-2T picture, the land is clearly flat so that rules out the branches on the north Wales coast and down the Vale of Clwyd. Also the fencing is not 4-bar as usually found bordering LNWR land. Post and wire fencing is more GWR. Add to this the flat land and it could be the borders beyond Wrexham towards Ellesmere. The Wrexham-Elleslesmere line would fit or the Gobowen to Oswestry line with the photo taken from the nearby road. Or even the GWR mainline from Wrexham to Shrewsbury.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Dave - but it doesn't!
Simon and Larry. Thanks for your suggestions. I guess we'll never know precisely but we are probably closer geographically with your comments than we were previously.
For today a decent portrait of a Caprotti Standard 5. This is "Patricroft MPD. September 1958." 73129 was new to the Western Region and was transferred to Patricroft on loan early in the month that Tim recorded it there. It still carries an 84G, Shrewsbury shed plate. The move was made permanent at the end of September at which time I guess the shed plate will have been changed. 73129 was withdrawn from Patricroft at the beginning of December 1967 and was recorded at Woodham Bros, Barry, on 7th July 1968. I understand that the loco has been restored as the only Caprotti Class 5 in preservation at Butterley although it's now out of ticket.
Brian
Simon and Larry. Thanks for your suggestions. I guess we'll never know precisely but we are probably closer geographically with your comments than we were previously.
For today a decent portrait of a Caprotti Standard 5. This is "Patricroft MPD. September 1958." 73129 was new to the Western Region and was transferred to Patricroft on loan early in the month that Tim recorded it there. It still carries an 84G, Shrewsbury shed plate. The move was made permanent at the end of September at which time I guess the shed plate will have been changed. 73129 was withdrawn from Patricroft at the beginning of December 1967 and was recorded at Woodham Bros, Barry, on 7th July 1968. I understand that the loco has been restored as the only Caprotti Class 5 in preservation at Butterley although it's now out of ticket.
Brian
daifly
Western Thunderer
I do tend to agree with your assessment of location though. I have a number of photos of 9011 but nothing later than October 1954 at Oxley. It appears to have a tender full of coal so is possibly still in use or in reserve/store but the absence of any sort of visible background buildings in the photo tends to discount Bath Road as a location. It is rare in a photo to see anything but named or tank engines at Bath Road. St Philips Marsh was the more usual home for freight locos in Bristol - such as the WD - but, again, background structures and buildings would have normally been visible.
Dave
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
I think I'm with Brian and Dave on this. As far as I can ascertain neither Bath Rd nor SPM had a Dukedog allocated to them since the class were built, I'm not certain on what traffic they might have been used, beyond the obvious any loco can pull almost anything. Swindon had a pair from the war years onwards, principally they seemed to have turned up on M&SWR services, might have pic somewhere.
Regards
Martin
Regards
Martin
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Dave and Martin for your continued efforts to identify the location of 9011. I suspect we're now as close to the actual location as we'll get.
A veritable gallimaufrey of subjects today, from the mid '50s to the '80s. I was initially hesitating including anything "heritage", but let's face it, even photos in the '80s are now between 30 and 40 years old so historical documents in their own way. Those who find heritage steam not to their interest can look away when that starts to appear!
First, however, we're back at "Patricroft MPD. September 1958." A nice row of LMS 2-6-4 tanks of which the only identifiable one is 42593 of the Stanier flavour and built by NB Loco in Glasgow. At the time this was a Stoke engine and was never allocated to Patricroft. According to the records it made a paper move from Patricroft to Shoeburyness on 17th June 1962 and was withdrawn on the 18th! The SLS, however, confirms withdrawal on 18th June, but then transfer to the Eastern Region on 30th June, being immediately withdrawn and scrapped at Crewe in the December.
This one is "Victoria 1956. Last Brighton Atlantic." Well, the loco description is correct and has featured previously but the date is definitely incorrect. I have no doubt that this is the RCTS "Sussex Coast Limited" or "Brighton Atlantic Farewell" - both titles were used - of 13th April 1958. 32424 hauled the train from Victoria to Newhaven Harbour. A1X 32640 and Standard 4 80154 were also utilised and the return to London was behind King Arthur 30796 Sir Dodinas le Savage.
This is a grossly underexposed frame but nevertheless interesting because of the scene incorporating two enginemen fitting the reporting number to the loco smokebox. It's "Paddington 1956." I believe these are both King class but the more knowledgeable will doubtless let me know if I'm wrong.
I thought I'd just tuck this picture of a Routemaster in here for no better reason than Tim photographed it on the same day as the photos below (and I like Routemasters.) I've not a clue where it was photographed but that looks like a railway bridge with some lurking enthusiasts. Combined with the buildings I reckon this is not a million miles from Marylebone.
In to the preservation era and these photos are both at "Marylebone. December 1986." 35028 and 777 headed up the trains to High Wycombe and back under the SLOA title "Santa Steam Specials". The date can be confirmed as 20th December 1986. Sir Lamiel clearly made a storming start! Tim took quite a few photos on that day and those of Sir Lamiel in particular are very good but more than one of each loco can get a bit repetitive.
Sir Lamiel is currently undergoing a ten year overhaul at Loughborough.
Brian
A veritable gallimaufrey of subjects today, from the mid '50s to the '80s. I was initially hesitating including anything "heritage", but let's face it, even photos in the '80s are now between 30 and 40 years old so historical documents in their own way. Those who find heritage steam not to their interest can look away when that starts to appear!
First, however, we're back at "Patricroft MPD. September 1958." A nice row of LMS 2-6-4 tanks of which the only identifiable one is 42593 of the Stanier flavour and built by NB Loco in Glasgow. At the time this was a Stoke engine and was never allocated to Patricroft. According to the records it made a paper move from Patricroft to Shoeburyness on 17th June 1962 and was withdrawn on the 18th! The SLS, however, confirms withdrawal on 18th June, but then transfer to the Eastern Region on 30th June, being immediately withdrawn and scrapped at Crewe in the December.
This one is "Victoria 1956. Last Brighton Atlantic." Well, the loco description is correct and has featured previously but the date is definitely incorrect. I have no doubt that this is the RCTS "Sussex Coast Limited" or "Brighton Atlantic Farewell" - both titles were used - of 13th April 1958. 32424 hauled the train from Victoria to Newhaven Harbour. A1X 32640 and Standard 4 80154 were also utilised and the return to London was behind King Arthur 30796 Sir Dodinas le Savage.
This is a grossly underexposed frame but nevertheless interesting because of the scene incorporating two enginemen fitting the reporting number to the loco smokebox. It's "Paddington 1956." I believe these are both King class but the more knowledgeable will doubtless let me know if I'm wrong.
I thought I'd just tuck this picture of a Routemaster in here for no better reason than Tim photographed it on the same day as the photos below (and I like Routemasters.)
I've not a clue where it was photographed but that looks like a railway bridge with some lurking enthusiasts. Combined with the buildings I reckon this is not a million miles from Marylebone. In to the preservation era and these photos are both at "Marylebone. December 1986." 35028 and 777 headed up the trains to High Wycombe and back under the SLOA title "Santa Steam Specials". The date can be confirmed as 20th December 1986. Sir Lamiel clearly made a storming start! Tim took quite a few photos on that day and those of Sir Lamiel in particular are very good but more than one of each loco can get a bit repetitive.
Sir Lamiel is currently undergoing a ten year overhaul at Loughborough.
Brian
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
I thought I'd just tuck this picture of a Routemaster in here for no better reason than Tim photographed it on the same day as the photos below (and I like Routemasters.)
This is Rossmore Road, Marylebone before the 1990s and later redevelopment of the station. This is the bridge at the end of the platforms 1 to 4 and halfway down platforms 5 and 6. Platform 4 was shortened to provide access to the two new platforms.
The gate just seen to the right of the RM led down to the cab road between platforms 1 and 2.
Google streetview below and the only remaining item is the bridge parapet. This also shows the later redevelopment.
This photo from t'interweb looking back towards the bridge shows the gate to the cab road and the building on the left (on the right in Tim's photo) before redevelopment.
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for the additional info, Dave. If anyone was going to know where that was taken it was you! Duly added to details.
Those who have persisted with this thread (thank you) will remember that I said to start with that Tim never took any photos of diesels or anything "modern image". Well, I lied! In the '80s Tim took his young son, Richard, then about ten years old or so, on photo safaris to introduce him to railways so we benefit from a few images which bring us, kicking and screaming, in to the 20th Century - well, that's an exaggeration but you know what I mean. Here's the first few of a number.
First "Trains at Lineside. Willesden. 1980s." Clearly 87025. There's no sign of a nameplate which suggests this actually between 1974 and 6th June 1978 when the loco was named Borderer. There was a name change in November 1982 to County of Cheshire. The records I've been able to locate advise that it's been withdrawn but gives no disposal info. In so many respects having a loco at the front of a train is much more satisfying than a Pendolino EMU.
"Trains at Lineside. Willesden. 1980s." again and in the same strip of negs as the one above so it is the same date. If memory serves me right this was a 310 unit, in this case 054. I'm probably looking at the wrong references but I can find nothing about this unit. All I know is that these have not been on the WC Main Line for years. I used them every week day for a long while as my transport in to town.
Another "Trains at Lineside. Willesden. 1980s." An unidentified Class 86. That line coming in from the right is, I believe, the entrance/exit from the electric maintenance depot, now emblazoned as "Bombardier".
For today a final "Trains at Lineside. Willesden. 1980s." Another putative 310 unit, this time 056, Richard with notebook in hand. With apologies no details of this one forthcoming either.
Brian
Those who have persisted with this thread (thank you) will remember that I said to start with that Tim never took any photos of diesels or anything "modern image". Well, I lied! In the '80s Tim took his young son, Richard, then about ten years old or so, on photo safaris to introduce him to railways so we benefit from a few images which bring us, kicking and screaming, in to the 20th Century - well, that's an exaggeration but you know what I mean. Here's the first few of a number.
First "Trains at Lineside. Willesden. 1980s." Clearly 87025. There's no sign of a nameplate which suggests this actually between 1974 and 6th June 1978 when the loco was named Borderer. There was a name change in November 1982 to County of Cheshire. The records I've been able to locate advise that it's been withdrawn but gives no disposal info. In so many respects having a loco at the front of a train is much more satisfying than a Pendolino EMU.
"Trains at Lineside. Willesden. 1980s." again and in the same strip of negs as the one above so it is the same date. If memory serves me right this was a 310 unit, in this case 054. I'm probably looking at the wrong references but I can find nothing about this unit. All I know is that these have not been on the WC Main Line for years. I used them every week day for a long while as my transport in to town.
Another "Trains at Lineside. Willesden. 1980s." An unidentified Class 86. That line coming in from the right is, I believe, the entrance/exit from the electric maintenance depot, now emblazoned as "Bombardier".
For today a final "Trains at Lineside. Willesden. 1980s." Another putative 310 unit, this time 056, Richard with notebook in hand. With apologies no details of this one forthcoming either.
Brian