Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Dan, Adam and Tony - thanks for the clarification vis a vis the crane. A picture is worth a thousand words and that one you put up, Tony, explains all. I didn't remember the ash disposal being so close to the coaling stage - I assumed being so close it would be in the way - but apparently not.

As far as the wagon is concerned, Fraser, Graham and Paul, thanks for the additional stuff about the wagon. I await confirmation about the repaint date!

Martin - as soon as I saw your message I forwarded it to Tim. A lovely comment and one with which I absolutely agree.

And finally, Simon, I've found nothing for 4037 so far. It's quite possible one will appear, though.

Moving on to a picture for today and a move to the Midland. This is "Kentish Town MPD. 8th February 1958". The Caprotti Standard 5s seem to carry that valve gear much better than the Black 5s. It's at a shed I visited a little later than Tim, just about when the Bed-Pan units were introduced, so the presence of steam was much reduced. Tim was there in time to catch the last knockings of Kentish Town as a major London shed. In my opinion another atmospheric shot, including the "bag" in the tender and the adjacent huge coaling tower. 73141 was a Leicester Midland loco at this time although the class is more usually associated with Patricroft where I saw one (73143) on the very last day of BR steam. In fact 73141 was a Patricroft engine when withdrawn right on the last knockings of steam, on 29th July 1967. It went to Cashmore's (Newport) where it was scrapped at the end of February 1968.



Brian

Edit: Just checked that shed plate on the smokebox and it's 15C, confirming Leicester Midland as "home".

 

[oldravendale]

Continuing the North London theme..... Again, but a week later - "Kentish Town. 15th February 1958." Two 2Ps and a 4F. The 2Ps can be identified as 40413 and 40534. There's another incidental reasonable wagon shot here (more of that later) and a view of that massive coaling tower. 40413 lived at Kentish Town from 1957 and was withdrawn from there in January 1959 being scrapped on an indeterminate date in 1960. 40534 was also based at Kentish Town at the time of this photo but moved to Nottingham in October 1958 being withdrawn in July 1959 being scrapped a year later.



And now for the wagons. In my ignorance I suspect that this belongs to the engineers but that's guesswork on my part. Doubtless there's an authority who can give us chapter and verse.



And for completeness, if nothing else - and this may provide some detailing info.



Brian

 

[AJC]

The wagon you query isn't (necessarily) an engineer's vehicle. It's an LMS speciality, the Medfit. None of the other Big Four companies really had anything similar for general goods traffic in any numbers but the LMS built thousands. Part of the Midland influence, I think, but to standard RCH dimensions (17' 6" over headstocks, 10' wheelbase, etc.). That one seems to be an LMS build, per this gallery from Paul Bartlett: LMS 3 plank medium open ZAO ZAV ZXO ZXV ZRV

Where it gets confusing is that the LMS (and other companies) had similar low-sided wagons for ballast, branded Haddock and Sole by BR (but this isn't one of either of those):

LMS Haddock - Sleeper wagon ZCO

LMS Sole Ballast wagons ZAO ZCO

Adam

 

[hrmspaul]

Fraser ....

What have you got to show anything earlier than this date? Are you sure they have wooden frames?

I am clearly talking about unfitted open wagons with wooden bodies on wooden frames. Nothing else. BR9210 of June 1959 clearly shows these are not to be painted, not even metalwork. I have late 1959 in my mind as I was shown a letter saying BRB was upset at the appearance of freight stock but I now think it may never have been required. The March 1960 amendment which introduces Gulf red for service stock is clear that wagons with wooden frames are not to be painted. The 1963 instruction which introduces freight stock red for all revenue wagon stock, thus (temporarily) dispensing with grey for unfitted stock doesn't appear to mention wooden frames at all.

Yes, I've published photos of wood framed ex Private trader wagons completely repainted. Undated unfortunately. They exist.

Paul Bartlett

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Adam and Paul for additional wagon info.

This is a photo which has some history for me personally. It's described by Tim as "Kentish Town. Last 2F in London. 8th February 1958." I first saw this loco quite soon after my interest in railways began, probably around 1959 when a friend at school invited me to travel up to Cricklewood "because there's a Scottish loco there". It was 58131 which was stored at Cricklewood for a long time before being moved away for scrapping. At the time I had no awareness of number allocations and for a number of years really believed I'd seen a Scottish loco before educating myself that there were quite a few locos in the "5" series which originated on the Midland. It was the only loco in the "5" series ever underlined in my ABC.

58131 had lived at Kentish Town since 1950. The Stephenson Loco Society reported withdrawal on 18th February 1961 although BR Database advises it was a week later. As I say, from first hand knowledge this loco was stored at Cricklewood so actual withdrawal was probably from there although it probably remained on Kentish Town's books. It was scrapped at Derby some time in 1961 after a life of over 85 years - not at all a bad innings. The SLS also reported on 2nd August 1958 that "Watlington branch goods services during week ending 2nd August were being worked by M.R. 2F 58131 (14A) whilst J15's 65391/405 were away u/r." (Ref BR Database).

Note the incidental wagon end and the magnificent architecture through the smoke. This is identified in a later shot as Read Brothers Bottling Store. There's an article about this in, of all places, READ BROS. LTD LONDON: DOGS HEAD BOTTLING, LONDON: LEGAL CASE: from which I quote: "In 1883 they acquired an acre of land at Carkers Lane, near Highgate Road, Kentish Town, London where they erected an export bottling premises of 150 feet square. It was equipped with a laboratory and could hold 2,400 butts of spirits for 18 to 24 months storage, before bottling. They produced 50,000 bottles per week. In 1906 they were the largest buyers and bottlers of Bass Ale in the world, all sold for export. By 1913 they had increased their land holding to nearly 3 acres at the original site, and they had stacking space for 10 million bottles, the largest bottling facility in London." There's a lot more on the web site and I commend this to anyone with an interest.



Brian

 

[AJC]

Another interesting wagon in there, Brian, and something of a rarity. I think that’s an SR diagram 1386 (or 1390, possibly), a 20 ton coal wagon. By definition Southern mineral wagons were rare and there were only about 250 of these - I don’t have volume 4 of SR Wagons here - so Tim’s captured something some way out of the ordinary, much like the 2F by that date.

Adam

 

[Overseer]

Further to the grey paint date - three pre-late-1959 examples from R.C. Riley's photographs in 'Steam in England'. All extracts for research purposes only, the book is well worth purchasing.

25 June 1958 as mentioned previously, not absolutely certain it has a timber underframe.


16 February 1958, Camden. This one could be an E prefix, if so not ex PO.


6 July 1959, Wellow S&D. 6th wagon looks to be painted all over grey, 8th wagon looks partially painted in grey.


These suggest to me that there was some painting of ex PO wagons grey before the end of 1959 and matches in with a 1957 introduction, but I can't recall where I read the 1957 date and it may not have been officially sanctioned.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Adam
Spot on re it being an ex SR dia 1386 20T, however bit awry on quantity, there were 980 of them. I suspect they may not have strayed too far from the Kent coalfields or loco yards which some were certainly allocated to. So yes an unusual wagon to find at Kentish Town. Back in my family history there was a Mr Shaw who worked for the Midland Railway at Kentish Town, doing what I don't know.

Regards
Martin

 

[AJC]

Adam
Spot on re it being an ex SR dia 1386 20T, however bit awry on quantity, there were 980 of them. I suspect they may not have strayed too far from the Kent coalfields or loco yards which some were certainly allocated to. So yes an unusual wagon to find at Kentish Town. Back in my family history there was a Mr Shaw who worked for the Midland Railway at Kentish Town, doing what I don't know.

Regards
Martin

I did qualify the statement with not having the right book to hand! While that's more than I'd have assumed, in coal wagon terms that's insignificant. I suspect that they vanished into the pool of larger minerals after BR steel production came on stream in serious quantity. I haven't seen significant numbers (never more than a couple) in the east Kent pictures I've looked at.

Adam

 

[LarryG]

The wagon behind the N5 has a wooden underframe. Wagons with wood solebars and buffer planks had lower body sides than bodies on steel underframes.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, all, for the additional wagonry info. If only we'd all kept better notes at the time (and taken more photos!)

Two similar photos today, both of condensing Midland 3F 0-6-0Ts. "Kentish Town MPD. 15th February 1958." As this was a Saturday I suspect train marshalling was at a minimum so 47204, 47212 and 47202 were on their weekend off. All three were allocated to Kentish Town in 1958. from where 47204 was withdrawn in March 1961, being scrapped in the April and 47212 in January 1961, scrapped in the following February although the SLS report it as being in "Sidings at Derby" in January 1961 so it probably ceased service some time previously. 47202 was the longest lived, leaving Kentish Town in August 1962 to go just down the road to Cricklewood East and then became widely travelled, going to Gorton, Fleetwood, Agecroft and Newton Heath before being withdrawn in December 1966 and scrapped in April 1967.





Brian

 

[LarryG]

Condenser No.47202 was a regular loco on the Higginshaw Gas Works turn on the outskirts of Oldham. It was quite a sight watching the loco take a run at the bank into the gas works. My driver and I on the route 'C' bus, which terminated at Higginshaw, had walked down to the overbridge to watch the commotion while passengers on our Crossley single decker (SD42/7) wondered if they would ever get to town! Newton Heath also used this loco on the Werneth yard shunt.

 

[hrmspaul]

Further to the grey paint date - three pre-late-1959 examples from R.C. Riley's photographs in 'Steam in England'. All extracts for research purposes only, the book is well worth purchasing.

25 June 1958 as mentioned previously, not absolutely certain it has a timber underframe.
View attachment 136583

16 February 1958, Camden. This one could be an E prefix, if so not ex PO.
View attachment 136582

6 July 1959, Wellow S&D. 6th wagon looks to be painted all over grey, 8th wagon looks partially painted in grey.
View attachment 136581

These suggest to me that there was some painting of ex PO wagons grey before the end of 1959 and matches in with a 1957 introduction, but I can't recall where I read the 1957 date and it may not have been officially sanctioned.

I did qualify that I had published photos of fully repainted wood framed open wagons. I know it happened. What I have are the offiicial repainting instructions - and several repetitive amendments as if they knew there was a problem of works not understanding not to be painted. I am asking for official confirmation that there was a period before late 1959 (at the earliest) when painting of these wagons was requested.

Paul

 

[Overseer]

I did qualify that I had published photos of fully repainted wood framed open wagons. I know it happened. What I have are the offiicial repainting instructions - and several repetitive amendments as if they knew there was a problem of works not understanding not to be painted. I am asking for official confirmation that there was a period before late 1959 (at the earliest) when painting of these wagons was requested.

Paul

That is the same question I asked in post 520. Photographs show that grey painted ex PO wagons were fairly common from 1957 but practically unknown before 1957. It would be good to know the reason for the change in what was being done in some workshops, whether official or unofficial. Somebody must have been paying for the paint.

Fraser

 

[LarryG]

The mid 1950's was a turning point for British Railways. Whether this brought with it a brightening up of BR is a moot point though. Engines given green in place of black might have instilled a sense of pride at the sheds involved, but the replacement of carmine red and carmine & cream with maroon led to much duller looking passenger coaching stock. Whatever, it is possible someone mentioned that the 'forgotten' goods wagon sector looked incredibly rough, and this may have led to the painting of wood-body wagons that had a few more years of useful life ahead of them. It's all guesswork on my part.

 

[oldravendale]

It's so gratifying when photos stimulate the memory cells, Larry, and first hand recollections which confirm the official record.

"Cricklewood 15th February 1958." and a nice portrait of Crosti boilered 9F 92025 intacto, so to speak with the compulsory wagon behind. It would have been good to see the other side with all the exhaust gubbins in place but to see a Crosti loco looking vaguely respectable was a coup in itself. This photo is clearly before the rebuilding with a conventional layout. Can anyone suggest the date when this conversion occurred?

Home shed at the time of this photo was Wellingborough. It moved around the system a bit, ending up at Speke Junction and then Birkenhead Mollington Street. Although it appears to have then been withdrawn this was from Speke Junction which suggests that it was going to be transferred back but failed leading to immediate withdrawal - or maybe it was simply visiting Speke Junction when failure occurred. In any event it was officially withdrawn on 11th November 1967 and scrapped at Campbells (Airdrie) in April 1968.



Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Brian,
According to the RCTS book, 92025 was converted to a conventional boiler arrangement in April 1960.
Please keep the wonderful, evocative photos coming.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Dave. That fills a knowledge hole. And I can assure you that there are many more images to come.

This time, because I missed a couple of scans already done, we're back at "Kentish Town MPD. 8th February 1958". This time a 4F 0-6-0 44531 with another obligatory wagon as incidental music, but this time a steel mineral. (A blow up of this part of the image can be arranged if required). That massive coaling tower is well within the shot - well, most of it. This loco was a Kentish Town resident at the time, moving to Cricklewood East (we knew the shed as simply "Cricklewood" - I don't know of another shed in the vicinity) in August 1962, then Toton in February 1963 from where it was withdrawn in April 1964 giving a service life of over 35 years. Final scrapping took pace in December 1964 at Sag Reduction Co, Ickles, Rotherham. (Rail UK).




Brian

 

[LarryG]

Hope this is okay. I brightened things up in the hope I could make sense of the tank mounted vertically in front of the cab. I came across nothing in my books. AWS??? Steam-operated reverser???

 

[oldravendale]

That's fine, Larry.

I have to say that I don't know what that cylinder is either. I've looked at some immediately available photos and not found it on any other pictures - so far. There are pipe to it from the cab but that doesn't help much.

Brian