Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

I agree with Ian, a gem, but it raises some very interesting questions. I have established that 14508 was allocated to Stranraer in Aug 39 but wasn't seen there again until 1958, and apparently two of the class were allocated there in 1950 for which I don't have numbers. As Brian has pointed out that it languished withdrawn for at least 4 years which seems like a long time in the 1960's, I wonder if it had just been forgotten about. I've had a brief trawkl through likely books and no sign of a Pickersgill 4-4-0 anywhere, all the usual contenders, Black 5s, Crabs, Jumbos, Std4 tanks, Clans, 2Ps, Compounds, so I wonder what it was used for. It wouldn't I suppose be any much different from a 2P but none the less.

The 8F is also interesting, according to records 8158 was a Nottingham engine at the time, so Stranraer seems extremely unlikely. I have found two references to 8Fs at Stranraer, 8185 a Motherwell engine in Jan 47 and 8464 a Kingmoor engine in Aug 56, but otherwise uncommented on and unobserved, I would expect a sudden need would likely explain their presence and the sheds are likely.

All very intriguing.
Martin

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Sou West men didn’t like the Caley bogies much, but there were still some Caley men at Stranraer, Joint line, so that may explain its retention.

I found a photo, by Derek Cross, of 48536 on a Chipmans weed killing train going south at Alloway junction in the early 60s. I’m still looking for a picture of one on a revenue train.

Derek Cross is probably the best known photographer to cover the South West of Scotland but he preferred train and action pictures. That Tim chose to photograph shed scenes is especially welcome.

Ian.

 

[JimG]

This is 54508, a Pickersgill/Caledonian Railway Class 72 4-4-0 built by North British in 1922. It was transferred to Stranraer stock in December 1956 and withdrawn in December 1959, not being scrapped until July 1964, so where did it languish for over four years? It is, in fact, recorded as withdrawn in Stranraer shed through 1961, 62 and 63 although not there in June 1964 and strangely not recorded on shed in June 1960.

Originally No.97 in Caledonian days. But they were a bit of a throwback when built, being based on his 113 class of 1915 which were in themselves a development of McIntosh's superheated 4-4-0s of around 1910. Pickersgill had been in the throes of trying to design modern (at the time after WW1) locomotives and the results of what had reached the rails were not wonderful. Cornwell's book on the subject sort of implies that traffic had asked for something that worked. Their performance was similar to McIntosh's saturated designs of the 1890s but they were extremely well built locomotives, with heavy framework, and had an good maintenance record.

As for the delay between being withdrawn and being scrapped, in Scotland there were various tales about certain locomotives being favourites for preservation and being "hidden" in the corners of MPDs, far from management's eyes, and this might have been the case with this loco. They would have to have found a proper Caledonian dome for it. I only picked up these tales through occasional mentions in books and magazines over the years and I'm afraid I couldn't point to a source. Maybe Ian and Martin have some thoughts.

Jim.

 

[adrian]

The 8F is also interesting, according to records 8158 was a Nottingham engine at the time

Happy to be corrected but I read the 8F number as 48758.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for some wonderful additional comments Ian, Martin and Jim.

I've looked at the records of locos actually on shed at Stranraer and found only one 8F recorded there and that was 48464 on 11th July 1955 when it was allocated to Carlisle Kingmoor. (The record I am using is of physical sightings on shed, not allocations). In this case the loco is 48758 rather than 48158 and it also was a Carlisle Kingmoor loco. In fact, according to an SLS report of a visit on 15th August 1952 48758 was on shed at that time, so not an unknown visitor. The report states: " The following locos. were on shed: 41099 (68C), 600/11/16 (68C), 45480 (68B) and 57445 (68C). Visitors included 48758 (68A), 44706 (67A) and 42919 (68B). 44101 was working the 10.0 p.m. Stranraer-College freight and 45642 Rodney the 9.15 p.m. 'Northern Irishman.' Shunting duties are performed by 0-4-4T 55125 and 0-6-OT 56372 an 56234. The latter shunts the Harbour Station."

The Locoshed Book for April/May 1957 and correct for the Scottish Region on 13th April 1957 shows 54508 on the Stranraer allocation at that time which fits neatly with Tim's photo. 54508 was previously a Greenock Ladyburn loco and I can find nothing to argue against the date I have for transfer to Stranraer on 22nd December 1956.

I'd also previously heard about the occasional pet loco being hidden away in sheds. It's a shame that, for the most part these were never saved, in fact I'm aware of at least one which went for scrap even though scheduled for preservation.

B

Edit. Thanks Adrian. I'd made the same discovery and was typing this when yours arrived.

 

[Martin Shaw]

My fault, I really should put the right glasses on, so ignore my 8F waffles. I would agree with Brian re allocation of 54508 to Stranraer, however I would defer in respect of it's previous location which I have as Greenock Princes Pier rather than Ladyburn. I've always thought Ladyburn to be more of a freight shed but no doubt Ian and Jim will put me right. It was allocated there as late as Sept 56 but in store, as it was in Sept 55. That it was reinstated at Stran for a relatively short period I still find odd given there wasn't really a shortage of more modern motive power, it would be interesting to know it's workings, given the preponderence of Std 4 tanks, Std 3s, Clans, Black Fives etc. After withdrawal in 64 it was cut up by P&W McLellan at Langloan (Coatbridge).

Now don't quote me on this but I think the nascent SRPS expressed an interest in a Pickersgill example as the last representative of the long line of Caley 4-4-0s, and it really should have happened from a purely historical perspective, but then so perhaps should their intent on a NBR N15 or the BTC's interest on Ben Alder. The wish list of the early railway preservation movement is a read of the might have been, had the Bluebell more money then a K class would still exist.

I could only find the two references of an 8F at Stranraer so it must have been rare enough, I too can't find a pic anywhere.

 

[Culreoch]

Kingmoor's 48758 is 'namechecked' in Andrew Swan's book on the Port Road as handling some of the trainloads of munitions that were taken to Stranraer (Cairnryan maybe?) for disposal at sea. The book states 8Fs were not uncommon on these trains which ceased 'around 1955', and notes that post-war 8Fs were routed via Ayr due to restrictions on the PP&W which were later lifted. I don't recall seeing another one photographed in the area but that can also be said of the other types working the munitions trains - WDs.

On the 4-4-0, I can't see any particular logic to it appearing at Stranraer either, but doesn't that dome disfigure the poor locomotive!

 

[oldravendale]

You've all been deprived during the Christmas hols, so here are three photos to catch up. Hope everyone has remained safe and well, has had an enjoyable (if rather quieter than normal) and I wish us all a Happy New Year.

Smashing extras there, Martin and Jamie. Continuing thanks.

This next pair are a slight diversion to "Stranraer Carriage Sidings. July 1957". 55240 appears to be someone's pet, the equal I'd say of the Liverpool Street pilots. I understand this to be a Caledonian/Pickersgill 431 0-4-4T. It's certainly recorded as a Stranraer loco at this time and had been since February 1957 before moving to Ayr in April 1960 (bet Stranraer were sorry to see this one go), stored in July 61 but at Helford and withdrawal in November 1961 where it was stored until at least August 1963. (RO, LCGB and SLS). Scrapping occurred in October 1963 (BR Database) at Connell's, Coatbridge (RO) so this was another one kicking around for an age after withdrawal.





The third one for today is another "Stranraer MPD. July 1957." Con rods have been removed so it may have been heading for the scrapyard, but overall condition looks rather too good for that. There's also no indisputable evidence to detail which loco this may be but.... It's clearly a Midland Compound. In August 1956 both 40920 and 41132 were allocated to Stranraer but 41132 was not in the Locoshed Book in April/May 1957 so must have been withdrawn before that. In fact it was withdrawn from Stranraer in early October 1956 & scrapped by y/e 1956 so could not have been present at Stranraer in 1957. 40920 was withdrawn from Stranraer on 13th May 1958 having been allocated there on 12th May 1956. My money is therefore firmly on this being 40920. It was observed in Kilmarnock Works in May and July 1958 (RO) so it's reasonable to suppose that this it is where it was scrapped. BR Database propose a scrap date of July 1958.

Tim clearly tried hard to get a decent photo of a Compound. There are a few in the collection but none (so far) of a decent quality. In fact this may be the best. However, there are many negs yet to scan so maybe there'll be a good one in there somewhere.



Brian

 

[LarryG]

The 'colouring' of that Compound is intriguing when compared to the Stanier tender. While it might have been in storage for a good while, the paint on the smokebox, chimney and frames above the running plate is clearly fresh. The buffer beam looks black as well unless non-panchromatic film was used. The wheel treads have a glint on the edges and don't look like they are rusty. Did some mischievous devil paint it Caley blue....? Mmmmm.

 

[oldravendale]

That's a good observation, Larry - I thought it was just me! In fact I looked on line to see if there was any record of 41101 the "Andy Capp" loco making it to Stranraer but as far as I can see there's no way that was possible. I'd not considered the possibility of a touch of Caley blue. I'll have a look at the film edge print to see if there's any evidence of the film being ordinary or orthochromatic although at the time these pictures were taken I'd say that the chance of roll film being anything less than panchromatic was thin. Sheet film - yes - but roll film unlikely, I'd say. Additionally Tim has tended to make comments about anything out of the ordinary, and a blue compound would fulfill that criterion.

Brian

 

[JimG]

This next pair are a slight diversion to "Stranraer Carriage Sidings. July 1957". 55240 appears to be someone's pet, the equal I'd say of the Liverpool Street pilots. I understand this to be a Caledonian/Pickersgill 431 0-4-4T. It's certainly recorded as a Stranraer loco at this time before moving to Ayr in April 1960 (bet Stranraer were sorry to see this one go) and withdrawal in November 1961. Scrapping occurred in October 1963 so this was another one kicking around for an age after withdrawal.

It was part of batch Y130 of ten locomotives built in 1922, six of which were the Caledonian "standard" Class 439 0-4-4T and four of which had slight modifications to increase cylinder diameter and boiler pressure to become Class 431. The four were intended for banking duties and were allocated to Beattock when built. In his recent Caledonian locomotive book, Cornwell notes that there was some indication in his research that the 1000th loco to be built at St. Rollox was in this batch and one trade magazine of the time noted that the 1000th loco had been completed at St. Rollox and that its immediate successor was No.431 - to become 15240 then 55240. So this could have bee the 1001st loco built at St. Rollox.

The star behind the smokebox door handle was very much a Caledonian style of decoration.

Jim.

 

[LarryG]

There's a story there, if only we can tease it out. Andy Capp was my first thought until I saw the slasher lining and of course the wheels. I saw Andy Capp on Newton Heath MPD when commuting to Manchester in mid 1959. I hadn't seen an LMS Compound for some years prior to that.

I should add that locos stored outside often had their smokeboxes painted, but not the whole front end of the loco. My Caley blue remark was in jollity.

 

[Culreoch]

Edit: I wrote garbage here based on some website without checking the books... oops!

 

[Martin Shaw]

As far as I can tell 55240 was at Ayr until 1957 so I think Tim has captured the engine just after it has arrived at Stranraer. It didn't stay too long , it was back at Ayr by 1960, no doubt in a somewhat less pristine state. It's difficult to see what work it did at Stranraer beyond carriage shunting, although there must have been enough to justify it, there was one of the class allocated there from nationalisation onwards. It's standing in the carriage sidings built during WW2 to cater for troop trains, one of which daily had previously been sent to and from Ayr for servicing, the signalbox at the rear is Stranraer Harbour Junction which closed in 1972.

Jim has pointed out the adornment to the smokebox, perhaps unusual to see it quite so late but it is worth pointing out the very strong connection between the Caledonian Railway and the Masonic order, there are several photos of Caley engines with compasses as decoration in the early 20th C, it was probably true of the other Scottish railways but it seems more apparent on the Caley.

As for the compound, no idea.

Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

More good stuff, chaps. That'll all be added to the available info. Your interpretation of the movements of 55240 agree with mine, Martin.

Here's one for Larry. "Stranraer MPD. July 1957." 42918 carrying a 68B (Dumfries) shedplate where it had been since at least 1948 (BR Database), agreeing with the Locoshed book of 1957. It was recorded at Dumfries by the SLS in 1958 and withdrawn on shed in June 1963. The withdrawal date was 29th December 1962 and physical scrapping occurred in September 1963 (BR Database) which nicely fits with Tim's dating of this photo. The Railway Observer reports the loco as at J McWilliams, Shettleston for scrapping.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Yet another Crab but a rather unusual view. This is "Stranraer MPD. July 1957." again. A perfectly straightforward history for this one. 42749 was a long term Stranraer resident since 1952 before moving to Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1957 and returning to Stranraer in September 1958 finally being withdrawn at the end of July 1962. (SLS). Scrapping occurred in November 1962 according to BR Database. Recorded at Ward's, Inverkeithing by the RCTS. A rather unusual shot of the loco on the turntable.



I should have included this one with the previous shot of 54508 next to 48758. Details are as for the previous version.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Here's the subject of an earlier discussion. 48758 is a part of the "Stranraer MPD. July 1957." collection - in fact the final photo in Scotland for the time being. Again a straightforward history, allocated to Carlisle Kingmoor since August 1952 it moved to Newton Heath at the end of June 1964 where it lasted until December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped in March 1968 (BR Database) at Ward's, Beighton, Sheffield (RO) where it was seen on 11th March 1968. (WHTS).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Now, as a complete change, we are on my own home ground and well within Tim's easy reach when he was living in Hornsey.

This is "W Class 2-6-4T. Willesden Transfer Freight. 1957." The loco is 31916. SLS records the allocation from March 1953 until May 1961 as Hither Green and it then went to Eastleigh in May 1961 where it was recorded on 30th July 1961 as one of the Eastleigh allocation, possibly because Hither Green closed in October 1961. It was still at Eastleigh on 4th March 1962 but is not recorded there on 25th November 1962. The SLS advises that a further allocation occurred, to Exmouth Junction on 19th November 1962 so that fits quite neatly. There were no "W" class at Exmouth in September 1962 but four recorded there on 21st July 1963, none of which was 31916. Locoshed Books for 1957, 1958 and 1959 record the loco as resident at Hither Green. Withdrawal took place on 27th July 1963 (SLS) and it was scrapped the following October (BR Dtabase) so it would be reasonable for the loco to be recorded as "in store" or "withdrawn" at Exmouth during the shed tour on 21st July, but it wasn't there. Neither is it recorded around these dates at Eastleigh or Salisbury, two potential storage locations. So it looks likely that a transfer to Exmouth did, indeed, take place but it's lost after November 1962 as no reliable sightings are recorded. Finally the Railway Observer reported the loco scrapped at Eastleigh week ending 26th October 1963.

For me the really noticeable thing in this photo is the rows of carriages in the sidings. I remember this so well, and many were used for a few weeks in the summer and sat there for the rest of the time. Neasden had similar carriage sidings. Hardly sweating the assets, was it?



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Thats awfully spooky Brian since this arrived courtesy of Mr Claus, or kind wife depending on your perspective. Actually all four of the series which was a generous donation to my store of generally unhelpful knowledge,


The Z class 0-8-0s which had been doing banking turns at Exeter were generally worn out by 1962 and being a small class with non standard boilers, (basically a Brighton C2X), it was decided to move some of the Ws which had litle work elsewhere to Exmouth Junc for these duties, allowing withdrawal of the Zs. The first W to Exmouth was 31924 on 24/9/62 and by the end of Jan 63 there were 6 there, most of the class were withdrawn during 1963, three lasting until 1964 at Norwood.

As for 1916 there is a picture of it on a banking turn at Exeter Central in Apr 63 and I have no reason to suspect it didn't carry on doing that sort of work until withdrawal. Getting it from Exmouth to Eastleigh might well have been a freight trip, we discussed this earlier re the loco at Cowlairs with a label on it, but I can't shed any more light on that.

Happy New Year to you all.
Martin

P.S The move to Eastleigh was for working the Fawley oil trains which doesn't seem to have been successful, pretty poor I would suggest since they reverted to an E6.

 

[oldravendale]

I have those books too, Martin, and as a dyed in the wool Southern enthusiast enjoyed them immensely. I'd nt taken the opportunity to go in to the cold workshop to dig the relevant volume out, although I suspected it would give me a bit more info. I remember the "W"s on the Fawley trains, although mostly previous to that when they'd occasionally be seen on empty stock at Waterloo. . They appeared to be more than competent on the Fawley traffic but I was not the Operating Superintendent! I later saw 9Fs on the same trains.

Moving on to the photo for today this is another favourite class, the original "Patriot" class. Tim's title for this is "Willesden MPD. 15th February 1958." 45547 was one of the un-named locos and was on the Willesden allocation at this time, moved to Carnforth for a fortnight on 3rd October 1959 (!) then back to Willesden on 17th October 1959. It went to Llandudno Junction on 7th January 1961 finally moving to Edge Hill on 10th June 1961 to be withdrawn on 15th September 1962. I languished for only a short time as scrapping occured on 8th November 1962.



Brian