Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
James Fibbens
Member
Long-time lurker, first-time poster in this amazing thread...Please keep them coming Brian!
Isn't it 73042? In which case it is reported as loaned to the Southern in June '58, and then transfered to Nine Elms a year later.
Also, it looks like it is sporting the extra lamp irons on the smokebox door to allow display of Southern headcodes, so perhaps once the Southern got hold of it on loan, they modified it pretty quickly...and ended up keeping it...
Isn't it 73042? In which case it is reported as loaned to the Southern in June '58, and then transfered to Nine Elms a year later.
Also, it looks like it is sporting the extra lamp irons on the smokebox door to allow display of Southern headcodes, so perhaps once the Southern got hold of it on loan, they modified it pretty quickly...and ended up keeping it...
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you Dave @Dave Holt and James @James Fibbens . (So glad you enjoy the thread, James. It makes it all so worthwhile). You are both right on the money, of course. I had the correct commentary and even put it in the original draft. Then, for some reason thought the loco was 73043, which it clearly isn't! I've now rewritten the commentary by way of an edit and am so grateful to you for keeping me on my toes!
Brian
Brian
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Also a Stewarts Lane allocated locomotive makes more sense for trains on this ex-SECR route. Reading the previous posts, it appears 73042 was transferred to Nine Elms at the time phase 1 of the Kent Coast electrification scheme became live.
AndyB
Western Thunderer
A proposal for a location for imgs 3524-3530.
Looking to the left, the track bed is on an embankment both sides whilst looking to the right there is a small cutting bank on the far side of the tracks. There are power lines running on the far side with a quite distinctive 'A' frame pole visible in img3530 and behind that the ground is generally rising.
From the shadows we are on the southerly side (as might be expected for decent photos).
The only place I can see these features coming together in the Meopham / Sole Bank area is here:
On Google maps, just next to the underbridge at the 64 spot height is a power line pole just like the one in img3530:
and an arial view - compare the line of trees to those in imgs 35286 & 8. The circle shows approximately where I think the pictures may have been taken.
Access was most likely from the footpath crossing about 300mwest east of the location, and there were 2 signal posts en-route so there must have been reasonable walking access to get to them for maintenance.
Edit - between the 1949 and 1960 map issues, the signal posts were moved. The Down was moved about 200m east and the Up moved about 100m east, nearly adjacent to the footpath crossing.
The gradient at the photographic location is 1:93.
Edit - a view from street view from Warren road, showing the power pole
Andy
Looking to the left, the track bed is on an embankment both sides whilst looking to the right there is a small cutting bank on the far side of the tracks. There are power lines running on the far side with a quite distinctive 'A' frame pole visible in img3530 and behind that the ground is generally rising.
From the shadows we are on the southerly side (as might be expected for decent photos).
The only place I can see these features coming together in the Meopham / Sole Bank area is here:
On Google maps, just next to the underbridge at the 64 spot height is a power line pole just like the one in img3530:
and an arial view - compare the line of trees to those in imgs 35286 & 8. The circle shows approximately where I think the pictures may have been taken.
Access was most likely from the footpath crossing about 300m
Edit - between the 1949 and 1960 map issues, the signal posts were moved. The Down was moved about 200m east and the Up moved about 100m east, nearly adjacent to the footpath crossing.
The gradient at the photographic location is 1:93.
Edit - a view from street view from Warren road, showing the power pole
Andy
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Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
I was intrigued by James reference to 73042 being on loan to the SR as I couldn’t find any confirmation of that in any of my material (RCTS/Irwell/Longworth).
RCTS has it transferred to Stewart’s Lane in 6/58, Irwell has it allocated there on 13/10/58 and Longworth in 5/59. Three separate dates invites investigation so read on.
The LMR wanted the two Stewart’s Lane Britannias 70004/14 for the accelerated St Pancras - Manchester services and in exchange they offered two Std 5s, 73041/2 from Holyhead and no doubt not in the best condition despite being only seven years old. The Britannias were transferred to Kentish Town (on loan) on the 21/06/58 en route to Trafford Park (on loan) 5/7/58. The transfers to the LMR were made permanent on P13/60. Why it took so long I have no idea beyond that the Kent Coast electrification was well advanced and the BRB saw no reason to retain such modern locomotives allocated to the SR for the soon to be electrically hauled Golden Arrow, maybe.
The two std 5s came to the SR, 73041 definitely allocated to Stewarts Lane on 14/6/58, 73042 is less well defined, I have found and believe the RCTS to be right and Irwell to have misinterpreted, Longworth is just wrong, he has the subsequent date of allocation to Nine Elms incorrectly ascribed to Stewarts Lane, of which he makes no reference. He makes the same error with 73041. I think despite all that it is reasonable to assume that 73042 carried out the same duties as its sister including being photographed by Tim on Sunday 10th August 1958. Brian doesn’t state this unequivocally but the clouds look the same as previous dated pics and the location is surely Sole Street bank, there are four telegraph pole cross arms which appears in earlier pics, not definitive but close enough for me.
On 26th August Driver Wembridge took 73042 to Mitre Bridge Junction where he took over the Glasgow – Eastbourne car/sleeper service which arrived on the outskirts of Eastbourne at around 7.30am in rainy conditions. He failed to stop at the home signal and collided with an EMU set in platform 4, with the tragic loss of five lives including the motorman of the electric train.
The locomotive required a light casual overhaul at Eastleigh from 30/9/58 – 1/11/58 which I suspect is where Irwell gets the October allocation date from, however I think it is in error and the actual date is 14/6/58 as for 73041 which incidentally had a general overhaul at Eastleigh 8/10/58 – 8/11/58 which reinforces my view that the LMR got rid of poor ones, were I the Holyhead shedmaster I would have done the same.
I can find no reference to either 73041 or 2 ever being on loan as opposed to permanently allocated to the SR and as Dave has pointed out both of them were transferred on paper along with a lot of the South Eastern division allocation to Nine Elms in May/June 59.
It amazes me at times just how much is behind the photograph of a pretty mundane train.
Regards
Martin
RCTS has it transferred to Stewart’s Lane in 6/58, Irwell has it allocated there on 13/10/58 and Longworth in 5/59. Three separate dates invites investigation so read on.
The LMR wanted the two Stewart’s Lane Britannias 70004/14 for the accelerated St Pancras - Manchester services and in exchange they offered two Std 5s, 73041/2 from Holyhead and no doubt not in the best condition despite being only seven years old. The Britannias were transferred to Kentish Town (on loan) on the 21/06/58 en route to Trafford Park (on loan) 5/7/58. The transfers to the LMR were made permanent on P13/60. Why it took so long I have no idea beyond that the Kent Coast electrification was well advanced and the BRB saw no reason to retain such modern locomotives allocated to the SR for the soon to be electrically hauled Golden Arrow, maybe.
The two std 5s came to the SR, 73041 definitely allocated to Stewarts Lane on 14/6/58, 73042 is less well defined, I have found and believe the RCTS to be right and Irwell to have misinterpreted, Longworth is just wrong, he has the subsequent date of allocation to Nine Elms incorrectly ascribed to Stewarts Lane, of which he makes no reference. He makes the same error with 73041. I think despite all that it is reasonable to assume that 73042 carried out the same duties as its sister including being photographed by Tim on Sunday 10th August 1958. Brian doesn’t state this unequivocally but the clouds look the same as previous dated pics and the location is surely Sole Street bank, there are four telegraph pole cross arms which appears in earlier pics, not definitive but close enough for me.
On 26th August Driver Wembridge took 73042 to Mitre Bridge Junction where he took over the Glasgow – Eastbourne car/sleeper service which arrived on the outskirts of Eastbourne at around 7.30am in rainy conditions. He failed to stop at the home signal and collided with an EMU set in platform 4, with the tragic loss of five lives including the motorman of the electric train.
The locomotive required a light casual overhaul at Eastleigh from 30/9/58 – 1/11/58 which I suspect is where Irwell gets the October allocation date from, however I think it is in error and the actual date is 14/6/58 as for 73041 which incidentally had a general overhaul at Eastleigh 8/10/58 – 8/11/58 which reinforces my view that the LMR got rid of poor ones, were I the Holyhead shedmaster I would have done the same.
I can find no reference to either 73041 or 2 ever being on loan as opposed to permanently allocated to the SR and as Dave has pointed out both of them were transferred on paper along with a lot of the South Eastern division allocation to Nine Elms in May/June 59.
It amazes me at times just how much is behind the photograph of a pretty mundane train.
Regards
Martin
AndyB
Western Thunderer
Following on from previous posting -
NLS maps has another series which shows the power lines (this is 1960 revision); they run from the bridge just west of the edge of this map to where they cross the line.
Photo viewing directions showed arrowed and the power pole circled.
NLS maps has another series which shows the power lines (this is 1960 revision); they run from the bridge just west of the edge of this map to where they cross the line.
Photo viewing directions showed arrowed and the power pole circled.
AndyB
Western Thunderer
Brian,
Some of the 'ups' and 'downs' in the captions may be confused?
Imgs 3528 & 3529 both say 'down' train, but are in opposite directions. 3529 should be an 'Up', I think.
Similarly, 3527 is also an 'Up', as are 3524 and 3525.
3526 and 3528 are correctly identified as 'Down' trains.
Andy
Some of the 'ups' and 'downs' in the captions may be confused?
Imgs 3528 & 3529 both say 'down' train, but are in opposite directions. 3529 should be an 'Up', I think.
Similarly, 3527 is also an 'Up', as are 3524 and 3525.
3526 and 3528 are correctly identified as 'Down' trains.
Andy
AndyB
Western Thunderer
Img3518 isn't Sole Street Bank - it is from the overbridge adjacent to Longfield siding, opposite direction to the Longfield siding photos.
This sets it right in the negative sequence.
View from google maps~:
Note positions of conductor rails - same as in the Longfield siding photos. In the cutting on Sole St bank, they are either both outside the tracks or both inside.
I think img3522 is the same location but from trackside - conductor rails in the same positions, and also other trackside paraphernalia.
Andy
This sets it right in the negative sequence.
View from google maps~:
Note positions of conductor rails - same as in the Longfield siding photos. In the cutting on Sole St bank, they are either both outside the tracks or both inside.
I think img3522 is the same location but from trackside - conductor rails in the same positions, and also other trackside paraphernalia.
Andy
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Ooh! Lots more lovely stuff...
Dave @Yorkshire Dave - a bit more info to give a good reason for 73042 being there. I took my info from the SLS so not without some credibility attached, I'd say, Martin @Martin Shaw . It's clearly one of those locos where the detail may be a bit confused so I'll keep your (very full) comments attached to the file. I'm grateful for everything you've put in to this. As you rightly say, every time we turn over a stone more interesting info issues forth.
Then there's the additional data on location for which I thank Andy @AndyB, including the matter of the ups and downs which I'll correct by way of edits. There's a lot of work gone in to that and it's much appreciated. I'll be opening an attached file to this set of photos in which I can include all your information.
There'll be quite a bit of work here in collating everything we have so I'll have to take a break shortly to do some house keeping and sweep up all the additional info. Not quite yet, though - I'll need to be in the right mood to work through everything and make certain none of it is lost. For now we'll move on to something entirely different.
N7 69695 light engine at Liverpool Street Station on 11th August 1958. This was a Tilbury engine from October 1956 but moved to Stratford in September 1958 so probably new in London at the time of the photo. It was withdrawn in December. (SLS). The loco was scrapped at Stratford Works (RO) in January 1959. (WHTS).
Yet again here is Liverpool Street J69 pilot 68619 as the subject of these two photos and seen previously in posts #4252, #4341 and others. It was in sparkling condition on 11th August 1958 at Liverpool Street Station. It was allocated to Stratford from at least 1948 where it was withdrawn in October 1961. (SLS and BR Database). Yeadons advise it was scrapped at Stratford and BR Database that this was immediately after withdrawal. In the first photo of this pair it looks like the other pilot, 69614 appears to the left and on the next track is an English Electric Type 4, probably D203. (Which was withdrawn in September 1982).
i
Class V2 60871 on a goods at Hornsey on 12th August 1958. Previously in posts #932 and #2400 60871 had been shedded on the GCR at both Leicester and Woodford Halse until 1955 but then went to Kings Cross in August 1956, Grantham from May 1961, then in July 1961 back to Kings Cross. In February 1963 it was at New England. By June the same year it had ended up at Doncaster and was withdrawn from there in the September (SLS) and was scrapped at Doncaster Works in the November. (BR Database).
An underexposed J50 0-6-0T at Hornsey on 11th or 12th August 1958.
An unidentified B1 or B2 - but probably a B2 - 4-6-0 at Hornsey on 11th or 12th August 1958.
Brian
Dave @Yorkshire Dave - a bit more info to give a good reason for 73042 being there. I took my info from the SLS so not without some credibility attached, I'd say, Martin @Martin Shaw . It's clearly one of those locos where the detail may be a bit confused so I'll keep your (very full) comments attached to the file. I'm grateful for everything you've put in to this. As you rightly say, every time we turn over a stone more interesting info issues forth.
Then there's the additional data on location for which I thank Andy @AndyB, including the matter of the ups and downs which I'll correct by way of edits. There's a lot of work gone in to that and it's much appreciated. I'll be opening an attached file to this set of photos in which I can include all your information.
There'll be quite a bit of work here in collating everything we have so I'll have to take a break shortly to do some house keeping and sweep up all the additional info. Not quite yet, though - I'll need to be in the right mood to work through everything and make certain none of it is lost. For now we'll move on to something entirely different.
N7 69695 light engine at Liverpool Street Station on 11th August 1958. This was a Tilbury engine from October 1956 but moved to Stratford in September 1958 so probably new in London at the time of the photo. It was withdrawn in December. (SLS). The loco was scrapped at Stratford Works (RO) in January 1959. (WHTS).
Yet again here is Liverpool Street J69 pilot 68619 as the subject of these two photos and seen previously in posts #4252, #4341 and others. It was in sparkling condition on 11th August 1958 at Liverpool Street Station. It was allocated to Stratford from at least 1948 where it was withdrawn in October 1961. (SLS and BR Database). Yeadons advise it was scrapped at Stratford and BR Database that this was immediately after withdrawal. In the first photo of this pair it looks like the other pilot, 69614 appears to the left and on the next track is an English Electric Type 4, probably D203. (Which was withdrawn in September 1982).
i
Class V2 60871 on a goods at Hornsey on 12th August 1958. Previously in posts #932 and #2400 60871 had been shedded on the GCR at both Leicester and Woodford Halse until 1955 but then went to Kings Cross in August 1956, Grantham from May 1961, then in July 1961 back to Kings Cross. In February 1963 it was at New England. By June the same year it had ended up at Doncaster and was withdrawn from there in the September (SLS) and was scrapped at Doncaster Works in the November. (BR Database).
An underexposed J50 0-6-0T at Hornsey on 11th or 12th August 1958.
An unidentified B1 or B2 - but probably a B2 - 4-6-0 at Hornsey on 11th or 12th August 1958.
Brian
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timbowales
Western Thunderer
What a lovely motley collection of wagons behind 68619, especially the ex-Southern brake van!
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
The Pilot loco's at Liverpool St. were known as the the West side (N7) and East side (J69) Originally the East side pilot was painted LNER lined Loco Green at the '48 Nationalisation. Don't know anything more about the N7 though. I'd be interested to know if the pilots received any livery other than plain black before nationalisation.
Col.
Col.
I think at the date of the photograph the only EE type 4 in service with a number ending ‘3’ was D203. Cannot be any other loco.
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
WHTS has N7 69695 withdrawn stored at Stratford 12/58 and scrapped Jan 59.
John Palmer
Active Member
The lead vehicle behind the unidentified J50 at Hornsey appears to be one of the LMS carriages that started life as a passenger-carrying carriage, became a 2nd World War conversion into an ambulance train vehicle, and thereafter underwent further conversion into a full brake. A variety of Period I designs underwent such conversion, resulting in a corresponding variety of body styles to be found in the second conversions to full brakes.
That's not an NE tender - they had visible coal rails. But B2s seem to have had a step-sided type of unknown (to me) provenance too.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I liked the motley wagons too, Tim @timbowales . As to knowing what they are, that's another matter entirely.
Thanks for the additional info about the Liverpool Street pilots, Col. I never knew a green J69 but, although I don't remember ever seeing them was well aware of the two Liverpool Street pilots. In truth it was very difficult to pick up one of the railway mags of the time without finding a picture of one of them somewhere! At the time I remember only the Railway Magazine (for the "serious" enthusiast and Trains Illustrated for us plebs. We're really spoilt for choice nowadays.
@40057 - my feeling entirely which is why I mentioned my belief that it's D203 in that photo.
Thanks, Arun, for being able to put the full stop on the N7's history. Added to the commentary by way of an edit.
John @John Palmer - many thanks for adding some information about the stock behind that J50. I'm starting to build up a bit of a description for a photo that had nothing associated with it in the way of notes, which rather neatly brings me to the comments from Dave @Dave Holt and @Daddyman . The sequence of photos we are discussing here are so badly underexposed that Tim never left any notes at all to go with them. When we started to work on his photos, shortly before he sadly died, he was amazed at the information we could draw from pictures he'd never even given a second thought to. We used to refer to them as the pictures from his sock draw. I recognise Hornsey, so location is not an issue. The date fits with other photos on the same film so that's reasonably close. As for the loco IDs I have to say I made an uneducated guess about the B1 which probably isn't. You could even go so far as to say that I made it up.
I'll be more than happy to make adjustments when I get to writing up the full notes but in the meantime you'll see that I've modified the description by way of an edit.
All in all some cracking additional information there so thank you to all contributors.
There are two more really poor photos to start here but quality gradually improves from awful and without any accompanying info to reasonable where comments can be gleaned from the notes..
This is an unidentified A4, again at Hornsey on 11th or 12th August 1958. (Actually, looking at it here and now that's not such a bad picture after all. However it doesn't help with details of which there are none).
An unidentified A1 at Hornsey on 11th or 12th August 1958.
I believe this to be 9F 92179 at Hornsey on 11th or 12th August 1958. This was allocated when new in October 1957 to New England, then Langwith Junction in January and Colwick in November 1965 where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). It was scrapped at Hughes Bolckows, North Blyth in March 1966. (BR Database).
8F 48716 on empty stock at Willesden Station on 16th August 1958. There's a U1 or N1 which probably arrived on foreign metals via a transfer freight in the background. The 8F was at Nuneaton from October 1949 and went on loan to Newton Heath at the beginning of 1958 where it was permanently allocated later the same month. Patricroft followed in January 1963 and Northwich in the following May, then Birkenhead Mollington Street in March and Lostock Hall in June 1965 where it was withdrawn in the August. It then went to Bird’s at Bridgend where it was observed in February 1966 (RO) and then March (SLS) and May and July. (WHTS). However, BR Database gives a scrapping date of January 1966.
Standard Class 2 2-6-2T 84024 in utterly disreputable condition on shed at Ramsgate on 17th August 1958. The loco was allocated new to Ashford in April 1957 and moved to Bricklayers Arms in February, Brighton in May and Warrington Dallam in September, all 1961, before ending up at Widnes in January 1962. There appears to have been a period of allocation to Crewe Works in August 1963, probably as a works shunter, where it was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works in October 1964. (BR Database).
Brian
Thanks for the additional info about the Liverpool Street pilots, Col. I never knew a green J69 but, although I don't remember ever seeing them was well aware of the two Liverpool Street pilots. In truth it was very difficult to pick up one of the railway mags of the time without finding a picture of one of them somewhere! At the time I remember only the Railway Magazine (for the "serious" enthusiast and Trains Illustrated for us plebs. We're really spoilt for choice nowadays.
@40057 - my feeling entirely which is why I mentioned my belief that it's D203 in that photo.
Thanks, Arun, for being able to put the full stop on the N7's history. Added to the commentary by way of an edit.
John @John Palmer - many thanks for adding some information about the stock behind that J50. I'm starting to build up a bit of a description for a photo that had nothing associated with it in the way of notes, which rather neatly brings me to the comments from Dave @Dave Holt and @Daddyman . The sequence of photos we are discussing here are so badly underexposed that Tim never left any notes at all to go with them. When we started to work on his photos, shortly before he sadly died, he was amazed at the information we could draw from pictures he'd never even given a second thought to. We used to refer to them as the pictures from his sock draw. I recognise Hornsey, so location is not an issue. The date fits with other photos on the same film so that's reasonably close. As for the loco IDs I have to say I made an uneducated guess about the B1 which probably isn't. You could even go so far as to say that I made it up.
I'll be more than happy to make adjustments when I get to writing up the full notes but in the meantime you'll see that I've modified the description by way of an edit.All in all some cracking additional information there so thank you to all contributors.
There are two more really poor photos to start here but quality gradually improves from awful and without any accompanying info to reasonable where comments can be gleaned from the notes..
This is an unidentified A4, again at Hornsey on 11th or 12th August 1958. (Actually, looking at it here and now that's not such a bad picture after all. However it doesn't help with details of which there are none).
An unidentified A1 at Hornsey on 11th or 12th August 1958.
I believe this to be 9F 92179 at Hornsey on 11th or 12th August 1958. This was allocated when new in October 1957 to New England, then Langwith Junction in January and Colwick in November 1965 where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). It was scrapped at Hughes Bolckows, North Blyth in March 1966. (BR Database).
8F 48716 on empty stock at Willesden Station on 16th August 1958. There's a U1 or N1 which probably arrived on foreign metals via a transfer freight in the background. The 8F was at Nuneaton from October 1949 and went on loan to Newton Heath at the beginning of 1958 where it was permanently allocated later the same month. Patricroft followed in January 1963 and Northwich in the following May, then Birkenhead Mollington Street in March and Lostock Hall in June 1965 where it was withdrawn in the August. It then went to Bird’s at Bridgend where it was observed in February 1966 (RO) and then March (SLS) and May and July. (WHTS). However, BR Database gives a scrapping date of January 1966.
Standard Class 2 2-6-2T 84024 in utterly disreputable condition on shed at Ramsgate on 17th August 1958. The loco was allocated new to Ashford in April 1957 and moved to Bricklayers Arms in February, Brighton in May and Warrington Dallam in September, all 1961, before ending up at Widnes in January 1962. There appears to have been a period of allocation to Crewe Works in August 1963, probably as a works shunter, where it was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works in October 1964. (BR Database).
Brian
AJC
Western Thunderer
I assume that the wagons were there for clearing rubbish, loco ash, perhaps looking at the loads. They're fairly run of the mill:
1. An LNER steel high (as is 4.); 2 an RCH ex-PO, no paint visible; 3 a fairly fresh steel mineral, one of the diagrams with bottom doors and independent brakes; and the brake, an SR 20 tonner, with at least a through pipe, hence Freight Stock Red. The one real point of interest is that the cabin wall is painted cream above the waist which is - apparently - what the paint spec' demanded, but only the Southern seemed to apply, and not only to their own designs. That said, I can never find the picture that illustrates that point... though I have found it before.
Adam
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
Regarding the N1/U1 - may I venture that it is an N1 as I am unable to distinguish the existence of the shallow splashers that would be on a U1 on the running plate. As a person with regrettably little actual contact with Southern Region locos in steam days, nor the ability to magnify the photograph I do humbly stand ready to be corrected.
Roger
Roger