Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks for yous, Dave @Yorkshire Dave , proposing scenarios around that L1 working. Regrettably any comment you made, David @djparkins didn't make it onto the page... As for the comment by the final Dave (!) @Genghis I couldn't agree more. The knowledge within this forum is truly remarkable. There are very many more photos to go and I hope we'll continue to see the same level of responses.

A view of the loco yard at Kings Cross in July 1958 with A4 60030 Golden Fleece present. The loco was on Kings Cross’ allocation from October 1957. It was withdrawn at the end of December 1962 and went to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped on 25th January 1963.



An unidentified BR Standard Class 4 4-6-0 on a Bedford train passing Kentish Town.



Crab 2-6-0 42760 on shed at Kentish Town in July 1958. It had been allocated to Rowsley since at least 1948 and moved to Gorton in November 1959 where it was withdrawn in August 1964. (SLS and BR Database). Somewhat surprisingly it then went to Swindon where it was photographed intact on 6th September 1964 and in C shop in September. (WHTS). BR database confirms a scrapping date of later in September the same year.



Yet again here is Liverpool Street J69 pilot 68619 in sparkling condition in July 1958 which was seen previously in post #4252 and others. It’s It was allocated to Stratford from at least 1948 where it was withdrawn in October 1961. (SLS and BR Database). Yeadons advise it was scrapped at Stratford and BR Database that this was immediately after withdrawal. The grubby N7 behind may be standing in for the other Liverpool St pilot, 69614.



Standard Class 4 2-6-4T 80076 having arrived at Liverpool Street believed to be from Southend, possibly an empty carriage working from Stratford or stand in station pilot in July 1958. At the time home shed was Tilbury where it had lived since December 1956. It moved to Stratford in August, March in October and Ardsley in December, all 1962, then Dumfries in October 1963 where it was withdrawn in July 1964. It then went to Motherwell Machinery and Scrap at Wishaw where it was scrapped in February 1965.



Brian

 

[Osgood]

Great view of the train shed at Liverpool Station - currently in the news as a result of proposals to redevelop the station (retaining the train shed):

It's time for Liverpool Street Station

Network Rail Property launches consultation on new plans to transform Britain’s busiest station.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Liverpool Street Station: New revamp plan still 'unacceptable'

Network Rail's re-drawn plans for Liverpool Street disregard the station's heritage, critics say.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[John Palmer]

Another comparatively uncommon carriage: the Brake Second immediately behind 42684 in img3502 appears to be one of the 54' length 7-compartment vehicles built to LMS Diagram 1772 between 1926 and 1929 for LT&S and Cathcart Circle services. Two lots totalling 19 vehicles were built by Hurst Nelson and Pickering for the latter services, and another 16 at Derby for the former. The picture shows a strip of vertical beading that bisects the panel work between the nearest compartment quarterlight and the luggage door pair: this corresponds with the beading arrangement shown on the LMS drawing for this diagram, but differs from the beading applied to at least the first of the carriages in the Hurst Nelson-built batch, which lacks this particular length of beading. Presumably the contractor saw fit to deviate from the drawing supplied by Derby.

I can't account for the relatively thick dark line along the further edge of the right hand luggage door – it is as if the bodywork between these doors and the nearest compartment is standing proud of the rest of the body, but no such protuberance (or inset) is discernible on the LMS drawing. Could this be nothing more than ill-fitting luggage doors?

Regarding the BR-built non-gangwayed stock to be seen behind 80151 in img3498a, I wonder whether this may be Set 904. This is afforded quite detailed treatment in Mike King's 'Southern Coaches Survey' and was evidently formed in 1956 or thereabouts for use on Oxted line services. The formation in 1958 was: BS S43383, S S46298, CL 4727, C S41064, S S46297, BS S43382. I've reproduced the numbering in reverse order from that given in Mike's book to correspond with the ordering seen in the picture, reflecting the fact that the third vehicle is the 'odd man out' and likely to be the Lavatory Composite 4727. This was an example of the Southern Railway's rebuilding of ex-LSW bodies onto Maunsell 58' underframes, the usual giveaway being the triangular profiled lengths of wood intended (somewhat unsuccessfully) to prevent the ingress of water between the bottom edge of the bodyside and the underframe which, being wider, protruded beyond the body. I think this splashboarding is apparent in the photograph from its slightly lighter tone. If this is indeed the Maunsell rebuild in Set 904 then it had little time remaining in the formation, having been removed from it in October 1958.

 

[Peter Insole]

That last image of standard class 4 80076 is not of a Southend train after arrival at Fenchurch St, but is actually at Liverpool Street, and the long lost East Side (deep sighs!) It is fairly unusual at this location, but not unique, and is probably standing in for the regular pilot locomotive, or more likely that it has come in on an ECS working from Stratford.

Thanks for putting that image up here Brian.

Oh what would I give to step back there - even just for a few breaths and a precious moment?!

Pete.

 

[Martin Shaw]

For that to occur wouldn't the L1 have had to work its way from Stewarts Lane to Bricklayers Arms via the South London line - which would appear to be an unnecessary light engine movement. I would suspect it would have worked a Victoria - Ashford - Kent Coast train to return to its home shed then a Kent Coast - Ashford - Charing Cross or Cannon Street train for it to appear at New Cross on a return journey.

Quite right Dave, I've rather unforgiveably confused Victoria and Charing Cross in my mind which rather neatly takes us to your first comment,

Probably the first headcode disc they laid their hands on or it was left with the loco.

More than likely now my stupidity has been exposed, if there is any part of the UK I shouldn't fail geography on its South London.

I am grateful to John for his further research on my rather scant comment on Mk1 non gangwayed coaches, I think he has it spot on. I also suspect the CL is there to provide the good folk of the Oxted line with first class lavatory accommodation, all the other vehicles being sans toilet facilities.

80076 was a Tilbury engine at the time and would be for another 4 years and along with Plaistow shed there were over 20 Std 4s on the LT&S together with the 3 cylinder Stanier tanks the possibility of a loan to Straford seems likely. What is odd is the lack of both headcode and tail lamp, perhaps a fleeting moment caught forever. Wouldn't we all like to go back somewhere or other Peter, I share your sentiment.

It's been a most interesting week amongst Tim's photos, thanks Brian.
Martin

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

The photo of 80076 is an absolute winner for me. I've built a model of this loco from an MOK kit and this is the first decent photo of it I've ever seen. Now to check that model is pretty close to the real thing. My version of the loco is in 1962 after it had moved to Stratford. I saw this loco at Brentwood when it was working an afternoon down parcels train, hence my choice of this one to model. From my research there was little work for them to do so they soon moved on. I've photos of a couple of others at Liverpool St on what I presume were empty stock workings, as suggested by Pete Insole.

Tim

 

[76043]

Is it possible the standard 4MT at Liverpool Street is on a Liverpool Street to Southend turn via the LT&S? They still occur to this day.

I just about remember the east side and also sigh every time a train shuffles into that US style part of Liverpool Street every time.
Tony

 

[LarryG]

Another comparatively uncommon carriage: the Brake Second immediately behind 42684 in img3502 appears to be one of the 54' length 7-compartment vehicles built to LMS Diagram 1772 between 1926 and 1929 for LT&S and Cathcart Circle services. Two lots totalling 19 vehicles were built by Hurst Nelson and Pickering for the latter services, and another 16 at Derby for the former. The picture shows a strip of vertical beading that bisects the panel work between the nearest compartment quarterlight and the luggage door pair: this corresponds with the beading arrangement shown on the LMS drawing for this diagram, but differs from the beading applied to at least the first of the carriages in the Hurst Nelson-built batch, which lacks this particular length of beading. Presumably the contractor saw fit to deviate from the drawing supplied by Derby.

The luggage doors were recessed with the guards door opening inwards.

 

[oldravendale]

So many things to comment on and thank you all.

Most importantly from my perspective is all the info about that photo of 80076. I truly wasn't comfortable with the description of the location which comes directly from Tim's notes, but seeing as the loco was apparently shedded at Tilbury at the time his remarks seemed to make sense, Anyway, drawing on all the information here I've edited the commentary to cover, I hope, all the options. Thank you Peter @Peter Insole, Martin @Martin Shaw and Tony @76043 for building up the correcting data. Much as I remember the days of steam with affection I'm not sure I'd go back there, unless it was with all the benefits we share in today but Peter's few breaths and a precious moment would fit the bill nicely and we could have a communal sigh, Tony. Thanks to Tony @Osgood for bringing the Liverpool St Station information up to date.

John @John Palmer - excellent carriage stuff and a question answered by Larry. Thanks to you both.

Tim @Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen - that's music to my ears. It's what we want to do in publishing these pictures and make prototype, whether locos, wagons, coaches or environment available to verify modelling detail.

Schools Class 30936 Cranleigh which we saw previously in posts #2627 and #3198 here at Sole Street Bank in Kent. It was at Bricklayers Arms from June 1935, Asford in June 1959, Nine Elms in November 1961 where it was withdrawn in December 1962 until July 1963. It was then stored at Eastleigh Works from August until September 1963 and cut up at Eastleigh Works in November 1963. (Irwell Book of).



The now preserved King Arthur 30777 Sir Lamiel on an up Dover and Ostend train on Sole Street Bank in Kent on 10th August 1958. It ad been at Dover Marine from June 1953, moving to Feltham in June 1959 and Basingstoke in October 1960 where it was withdrawn in October 1961. In October 1964 it was seen at Stratford Works in the Old Erecting Shop alongside LYR1008, 30245/587, 850, 925, 33001, 71000, 63460 and 63601. There’s a note that the GWR locos were still at Swindon. (All SLS). Details of its life thereafter are in 30777 Sir Lamiel (SR E777, SR 777 & BR 30777) The drivers on the GCR speak very highly of it.



King Arthur 30766 Sir Geraint on a down Dover and Ostend train at Sole Street Bank, Kent, on 10th August 1958. This loco was allocated to Stewarts Lane in May 1949 and went in to store there in November 1955. It was reinstated in June 1956 and was withdrawn in December 1958. (SLS). It was recorded by the Railway Observer as seen in Eastleigh Works on 16th January 1959. It was scrapped later the same month. (BR Database).



Q Class 0-6-0 30540 on a down special (it may have been special but I'll bet it was slow...) at Sole Street Bank, Kent, on 10th August 1958. The loco had been allocated to Norwood Junction as early as June 1953 and went to Three Bridges in December 1961 or January 1962 where it was withdrawn in November 1962. (SLS). It then went to Settle Speakman & Co Ltd, Queenborough, Kent also known as Peter Woods where it was observed on 7th April 1964. (RO). BR Database reports it as scrapped in May 1964.



Brian

 

[John Palmer]

The luggage doors were recessed with the guards door opening inwards.

Larry, thanks for that information as it's not a detail that appears on any drawings I've seen of this diagram.

I've now noticed that the reason for the variation in appearance between the Derby- and contractor-built versions arises from the fact that the latter, built for Cathcart Circle services, has steel panelled sides and ends and in that respect followed LMS Period II design practice, unlike the wood panelled vehicles built by Derby for LT&S services. With that said, I've also noticed that the steel panelled vehicles retained the style of ducket typical of Period I vehicles, so in that respect they should perhaps be regarded as a hybrid design.

The three photographs taken on Sole Street Bank can, I think, be more specifically assigned a Longfield Siding location, presumably constructed to serve the adjacent refuse depot.

 

[Martin Shaw]

John's thought is a correct one, it is indeed Longfield Siding, the signal box closed along with Fawkham Junc less than a year later on the 10/5/59, which was also the date that Rochester SB opened. The open wagon is loaded with concrete troughing in connection with resignalling work as part of the Kent Coast Electrification. There was a public siding there for coal, mineral and S to S traffic as well as the siding for the Borough of Southwark. After Longfield Siding SB closed the connection to the up line was worked from Meopham SB.
Martin

 

[Barry37]

John's thought is a correct one, it is indeed Longfield Siding, the signal box closed along with Fawkham Junc less than a year later on the 10/5/59. The open wagon is loaded with concrete troughing in connection with resignalling work as part of the Kent Coast Electrification. There was a public siding there for coal, mineral and S to S traffic as well as the siding for the Borough of Southwark.
Martin

The wagon is very close to a chainlink fence: presumably there was a vertical end-loading type of buffer stop at that point.
In the middle distance, there is a loading gauge by the barrow/foot crossing. Beyond that, in the two refuse depot sidings, there is an assortment of wagons, some of which appear to be sheeted.
The line curving down by the road on the map originally met a short line from a gravel pit, which wasn't shown on this map – which NLS says is 1892-1914.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The now preserved King Arthur 30777 Sir Lamiel on an up Dover and Ostend train on Sole Street Bank in Kent on 10th August 1958. It ad been at Dover Marine from June 1953, moving to Feltham in June 1959 and Basingstoke in October 1960 where it was withdrawn in October 1961. In October 1964 it was seen at Stratford Works in the Old Erecting Shop alongside LYR1008, 30245/587, 850, 925, 33001, 71000, 63460 and 63601. There’s a note that the GWR locos were still at Swindon. (All SLS). Details of its life thereafter are in 30777 Sir Lamiel (SR E777, SR 777 & BR 30777) The drivers on the GCR speak very highly of it.

Sir Lamiel was one of the exhibits at the BR London & Greenwich Railway 150 exhibition at Cannon Street over the weekend on 23/24 August 1986 - one of my photos. Over the two days a shuttle service was provided to London Bridge by the preserved 4-SUB and 2-BIL and a shuttle to Charing Cross by a class 455 EMU.



Cannon Street has since been rebuilt and the remaining wall sections and towers are grade II listed.

 

[timbowales]

I love the baulks of timber chained to the rails to stop Sir Lamiel escaping

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The line curving down by the road on the map originally met a short line from a gravel pit, which wasn't shown on this map – which NLS says is 1892-1914.

Here's an extract of the NLS OS 1:1,250/1:2,500 1944-1973 series showing the extent of the sidings and tip.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you John @John Palmer for your further thoughts on the coach situation and also for identifying the precise location of those photos. Then Martin @Martin Shaw, Barry @Barry37 and Dave @Yorkshire Dave for further particulars. I'll attach all this info to a file referencing the pics on Sole Street Bank.

Thanks for yours about Sir Lamiel as well, Dave. The view of Cannon Street Station across the Thames is an iconic one and even though it's changed I'm pleased to hear that the remaining walls and towers have at least some protection.

Original West Country 34103 Calstock on an up fast train at Sole Street Bank in Kent on 10th August 1958. The loco was allocated to Dover Marine from October 1956, moved to Bournemouth in January 1961 and Eastleigh in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in September 1965. It was observed intact in Buttigeigs at Newport on 27th March and then in June 1966 when it was photographed and again in September (WHTS). However, BR Database advise a scrapping date of April 1966.



Standard Class 5 73083 Pendragon on the down Kentish Belle at Sole Street Bank on 19th August 1958. Always a Southern engine it was at Stewarts Lane in July 1955, Nine Elms by June 1959, went to Feltham in September 1964 and back to Nine Elms in November the same year, being withdrawn in September 1966. (SLS). It succumbed at Cashmore's, Newport, in February 1967. (BR Database).



Class D1 4-4-0 31545 on a down fast train at Sole Street Bank, Kent, on 10th August 1958. This was a Stewarts Lane engine from June 1955, moving to Nine Elms in June 1959. It was withdrawn in March 1961. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported it scrapped at Ashford week ending 6th May 1961.



King Arthur 30767 Sir Valence on a down fast train at Sole Street Bank, Kent, on 10th August 1958. It had been a Stewarts Lane engine since at least June 1951 where it went in and out of store until June 1959 when it moved to Eastleigh and was almost immediately withdrawn. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works week ending 12th September the same year. (RO).



A considerably under exposed original Battle of Britain 34084 253 Squadron on an up fast train at Sole Street Bank, Kent, on 10th August 1958. It was allocated to Dover Marine in April 1958, Exmouth Junction November 1960, Bournemouth May 1963, Back to Exmouth Junction in November 1963 and Eastleigh September 1964 where it was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in March 1966 (BR Database) at Buttigeigs, Newport. (RO).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

I have turned up some further info re Longfield Siding SB, it was switched out for quite a lot of the time. In 1956,
Mon - Fri 3.45pm - 6.20pm
Sat 8.45am - 11.00am
Sat (Summer timetable) 8.45am - 4.30pm
Sun (Summer timetable) 9.20am - 4.30pm.
The hours suggest a porter/signalman probably based at Meopham and summer weekends covered by the relief pool.

In #3519 you can see a long rake of wagons in the distance, this is presumably to deal with "refuse" which is I suppose land fill.

The Vestry of Newington purchased land here and at Meopham station for the disposal of horse manure free to anyone who might want it and was prepared to collect it. Post WW1 with the rapid increase of motor vehicles in the capital and concommitant reduction in horses the sidings were repurposed for rubbish disposal from the Borough of Southwark. The sidings eventually closed in 1962.

Dave's map in post #4355 shows a row of 6 cottages to the north side of the railway called Vestry Cottages, they must surely have some connection with the above.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Martin, for your further advice about Longfield Siding. Remarkably detailed!

An in and out of storage loco which lived at Stewarts Lane from at least June1951 is King Arthur 30769 Sir Balan on a down fast train at Meopham on 10th August 1958. In June 1959 it moved to Eastleigh and was withdrawn in February 1960 (SLS) where it was scrapped week ending 13th February 1960. (RO).



Schools Class 30915 Brighton on an up fast train near Meopham on 10th August 1958. It was at Stewarts Lane from April 1957, then Nine Elms in June 1959, Redhill May 1960 and to its nameplace, Brighton, in November 1962 where it was withdrawn a month later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works week ending 30th November 1963. (RO).



Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75068 on an up fast service near Meopham on 10th August 1958. It was new to Dover Marine in September 1955, then Bournemouth in June 1959, Eastleigh May 1961, Brighton December 1962, Stewarts Lane in April, Norwood Junction in September and Eastleigh again in December 1963 where it was withdrawn pretty much at the end of Southern steam in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Risca, at the end of February 1968. (BR Database).



Schools Class 30939 Leatherhead on a down fast train near Meopham on 10th August 1958. The loco was certainly at Bricklayers Arms by February 1954, then June 1958 at Stewarts Lane, July 1960 at Ashford, Feltham in February and Nine Elms in March 1961. Withdrawal came in June the same year. (SLS). It went to Ashford Works where it was scrapped week ending 30th September 1961. (RO).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

#3523 is Meopham, the rectifier substation is the clue and the signal box was behind the first coach of the train. It was only 1.5 miles from Longfield Siding so not far to walk. I suspect the other three are somewhere in the very near vicinity of those two locations. I wonder whether he had a line side permit although the SR was considerably more reluctant than the other regions to allow them because of course the third rail was an immediate danger.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Martin @Martin Shaw . I've used your details to correct the location of those images by way of an edit and the additional info will be incorporated in to the detailed commentary.

N Class 31412 on an up fast train at Sole Street Bank in Kent, now believed to be near Meopham on 10th August 1958. It was at Stewarts Lane from at least January 1948 (BR Database), Norwood Junction in July, Redhill in September and Guildford in December 1963 before withdrawal in August 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in December the same year. (BR Database).



Schools Class 30914 Eastbourne on a down fast train on Sole Street Bank in Kent now believed to be probably near Meopham on 10th August 1958. The loco was allocated to Ramsgate in March 1951, Brighton in June 1959 and Redhill in May 1960 where it was withdrawn in July 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ashford week ending 9th September 1961. (RO).



Rebuilt West Country 34017 Ilfracombe previously seen in post #4330 on an up fast train on Sole Street Bank, Kent - probably actually near Meopham, on 10th August 1958 described as on the up Man of Kent at London Bridge on 16th June 1958. At the time it was a Ramsgate engine and had been since February. It was actually rebuilt in October 1957. In June 1959 it was reallocated to Bricklayers Arms, then Nine Elms in January 1961, Eastleigh in December 1963 and back to Nine Elms in June 1966 where it was withdrawn in October 1966. It went to Buttigeigs, Newport (RO) where it was seen many times between June 1967 and November 1968, reported by WHTS and RO and it was eventually scrapped in mid December 1968. (WHTS).



I have absolutely no information in Tim's notes about this one, nor do I have anything better for a number of the following photos so guidance on where these photos are taken will be appreciated. However, for location and bearing in mind the previous photos I'm pretty sure this is near Meopham so continues the previous sequence. Bearing in mind the film and negative strip number I believe the date of the photo is August 1958 and the loco Standard Class 5 73042. Bearing in mind the negative strip number I believe the date of the photo is August 1958. In July 1957 the loco was at Holyhead, on loan to the SR in June 1958 then allocated to Nine Elms in June 1959, Weymouth Radipole in November the same year and Eastleigh in March 1961 before going back to Weymouth in the following May where it was withdrawn in August 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1966 at Cashmore’s, Newport. (BR Database).



Brian