Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[John Palmer]

The mineral wagon next to 6974 seems to be numbered P125?23. This lies within the block of numbers allocated to Wagon Repairs Ltd, Chesterfield for the purpose of re-numbering pooled ex-POs passing through their hands (See Vol. 1 of David Larkin's 'Acquired wagons' series, p.10 et seq.). That doesn't greatly aid identification other than slightly raising the possibility that it was a wagon having a Midlands origin, perhaps. This wagon had side, end and bottom doors, and these are covered in Vol.3 Chapter 13 of the Larkin series. I really can't bring myself to look for a likely match in the numbers David has listed in this chapter, but I am struck by the light coloured area on the left hand top part of the side door, and wonder whether this may be a surviving vestige of its former owners' livery. Is it conceivable that this is the lower part of the 'S' in 'Bolsover'? The placement looks about right for this.

 

[Martin Shaw]

70031 Byron, Both Irwell and the RCTS have it wdn 11/11/67, stored Kingmoor to 2/68, cut up McWilliams Shettleston 7/3/68. Notably McWilliams cut up nineteen Britannias between October 67 and March 68, about one week so it didn't take very long beside the rest of what they would have been doing.

4091 Dudley Castle, Irwell also has this as the first Castle to be withdrawn.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Is it conceivable that this is the lower part of the 'S' in 'Bolsover'? The placement looks about right for this.

I appreciate identification would be almost impossible without knowing the disposition of colliery private owner wagons following the nationalisation of the collieries in 1947 and railways in 1948.

I don't think it is likely to be Bolsover though. Bolsover was lettered as an arc on their wagons with the SO at the top of the arc in the top three planks - as seen in this photo at Mansfield Colliery - you have to scroll down the bottom of the page as it's a bus and tram website.

Mansfield District Trams

 

[timbowales]

Dave, that is a delightful rabbit hole!

 

[Barry37]

From other sources on the internet, I think it may be this:

G R Griffin, “What Happened to the Private Owner Wagons?” Journal of The Historical Model Railway Society, Vol 16 No 11, pp 425-428, July 1999.

Cheers

Jan

Probably the one I was thinking of – I was still a member at that time.

 

[46240]

Good afternoon all,

In addition to the ex-PO mystery wagon in the Hall photo, there are also two in the photo of 2222.

One is the ex-SNCF steel mineral wagon type with cupboard doors.
Interestingly it doesn't have the prohibition notice about not loading with ballast or PWay materials that these usually show.

Next to it is a wooden-bodied 7 or 8 plank open wagon, but also fitted with cupboard doors at the top of each side door.
These were, IIRC, typically Scottish, so another example of the pooling system during and after WW2.

Cheers, Nigel.

 

[Barry37]

Good afternoon all,

In addition to the ex-PO mystery wagon in the Hall photo, there are also two in the photo of 2222.

One is the ex-SNCF steel mineral wagon type with cupboard doors.
Interestingly it doesn't have the prohibition notice about not loading with ballast or PWay materials that these usually show.

Next to it is a wooden-bodied 7 or 8 plank open wagon, but also fitted with cupboard doors at the top of each side door.
These were, IIRC, typically Scottish, so another example of the pooling system during and after WW2.

Cheers, Nigel.

It's an ex-SR 8 plank open wagon, probably D1379, built from around 1927 to 1931. This wagon appears to have angled ends to the headstocks - later Bulleid variations had square ends.
It also has floor retention plates added either side of the doors. Floor planks on these wagons weren't fixed down, and had a tendency to slide out.
The cupboard doors needed to be fastened properly – after a door swung open and hit a passenger train, they were prohibited from engineers' use.

 

[46240]

Good evening Barry37,

Thanks very much for the update on the second wagon.

Since posting I dug out my Larkin Acquired Wagons of BR vol 3 and can see a number of wagons with the cupboard door arrangement, including the SR 8 plank wagons.

It seems to be a London/SE feature as well as the Scottish wagons.

Cheers, Nigel.

 

[LarryG]

First Castle to be withdrawn was No.100 A1 Lloyds in March 1950.

 

[simond]

First Castle to be withdrawn was No.100 A1 Lloyds in March 1950.

The irony…

 

[Martin Shaw]

First Castle to be withdrawn was No.100 A1 Lloyds in March 1950.

Strictly speaking your correct Larry however considering how much of a Star class had to be modified to make it into a Castle makes it arguable. 100A1 Lloyds was withdrawn as a result of cracked frames directly attributable to its modification in 1925. I should perhaps have said the first Castle as built, those of us of a Swindon persuasion would consider 4073 as the first Castle and the earlier locos as rebuilt Stars, I'm undoubtedly splitting hairs here.
Martin

 

[Barry37]

Good evening Barry37,

Thanks very much for the update on the second wagon.

Since posting I dug out my Larkin Acquired Wagons of BR vol 3 and can see a number of wagons with the cupboard door arrangement, including the SR 8 plank wagons.

It seems to be a London/SE feature as well as the Scottish wagons.

Cheers, Nigel.

Morning Nigel.
Both the SECR and LSWR had many wagons with top cupboard doors, and the later SR version was an update of the SECR design with a more standard body length of 17' 6". "In between" these two companies, the majority of LBSC wagons were only five planks with a full height door, so no cupboard doors.
The GER had some seven planks with cupboard doors, built about 1910. As a precaution against bowed sides, these wagons had two diagonal straps each side of the doors. The seven plank GWR O2 & O10 wagons also had top doors.

Barry.

 

[simond]

Strictly speaking your correct Larry however considering how much of a Star class had to be modified to make it into a Castle makes it arguable. 100A1 Lloyds was withdrawn as a result of cracked framed directly attributable to its modification in 1925. I should perhaps have said the first Castle as built, those of us of a Swindon persuasion would consider 4073 as the first Castle and the earlier locos as rebuilt Stars, I'm undoubtedly splitting hairs here.
Martin

When you say “splitting hairs”, do you mean longitudinally, or transversely?

 

[Martin Shaw]

When you say “splitting hairs”, do you mean longitudinally, or transversely?

If you can see and hold the wretched thing, any way you please Simon.