Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Overseer]

A sadly very underexposed B1 61393 on an up fitted freight at Hornsey on 7th July 1962. The loco was allocated to New England in November 1959, Kings Cross in February 1960 and Mexborough in June 1963. It was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in the same month. (BR Database).

Edit: Now confirmed as a fish train.

Could someone explain why there is an insulated van behind the brake van in the fish train? I realise the rules for fitted trains could allow it but what would be the reason for it, Hornsey is a long way from fishing ports. Would the van be positioned there to allow a quick drop off before the trains final destination?

 

[AJC]

Could someone explain why there is an insulated van behind the brake van in the fish train? I realise the rules for fitted trains could allow it but what would be the reason for it, Hornsey is a long way from fishing ports. Would the van be positioned there to allow a quick drop off before the trains final destination?

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I think that’s the most likely answer, a late pick up being the other possibility, tacked on by a pilot loco somewhere. Fish is one of the few traffics likely to be so time sensitive as to allow that. I should have spotted that, it doesn’t *quite* line up perfectly with the signal box’.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

I'm in no position, Daves @Yorkshire Dave and @daifly to challenge you suggestion about these photos and had the same thought myself. The two photos are, indeed, on different film strips within the same folder so I wondered whether Tim had two cameras in use as was seen very often in the '60s. Certainly when looking through Tim's photos he was quite punctilious about identifying any photo not of his origin as "Not One of Mine" but it's always possible that some photos slipped through the net. I'm caught on the horns of a dilemma here as, if there are two photographers involved I don't know which are the Tim Mills originals. I'm going ahead with publication while acknowledging that there must be some doubt about the origin of them and they follow in this sequence.

Thank you Barry @Barry37 for proposing some useful modelling references and Arun for more detail about 60123.

Then thanks @Overseer and Adam @AJC for picking up on the "extra" vehicle at the end of the fish train and the likely reason it is there. I have to say I don't remember ever seeing this myself and I'd certainly not noticed it until you drew attention to it.

Another pair of photos, this time of A2/3 60513 Dante, previously in posts #1970 and #2554, on the down 6.17 Peterborough train at Potters Bar on 7th July 1962. It was based at New England and withdrawn at the end of April 1963. (SLS). It went back to the place of it's birth, Doncaster, where it was despatched by the beginning of May. (BR Database).





A4 60017 Silver Fox on an up express at Potters Bar on 7th July 1962. At the time of the photo it was a resident of Kings Cross where it had lived since new in December 1935, moving to New England in June 1963 and being withdrawn in October. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed by the year end. (BR Database).



Two here of the same loco, previously in post #1964, in this case A1 60128 Bongrace on the down 6.26 York and Hull train at Potters Bar on 7th July 1962. It had been a Doncaster engine since 1959 and was withdrawn in January 1965. (SLS). It went to Drapers of Hull where it was scrapped by the end of the following month. (Rail UK).





Here's another one of a "pair" - I'm as certain as I can be that we saw this loco on img3379 in post #4178 although I'd not linked the two photos at that time. The date and location are identical and I suspect that could be Tim in the frame here, judging by the viewpoint of the previous photo. This loco has also been seen previously in post #1757 and here is at Potters Bar on the down 6.50 to Cleethorpes train on 7th July 1962. Britannia 70041 Sir John Moore home shed was Immingham and had been since the end of December 1960. It moved to Carlisle Upperby in December 1963, then Kingmoor in February 1964 before being withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston, in September 1967. (BR Database).



Jubilee Class 45730 Ocean on a down Blackpool train at Tring Station on 14th April 1962. This was a Carnforth engine at the time and had been since September 1961, going to Warrington Dallam in July 1963 where it was withdrawn the following October. It then went to Ward’s at Beighton, Sheffield, (RO) where it was scrapped in March 1965. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[JimG]

Brian,

In the pair of pictures of 60128, in the second one, there is a woman standing by the turnout which would have been the camera position for the first picture - Tim's wife/girlfriend???

Jim.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I'm in no position, Daves @Yorkshire Dave and @daifly to challenge you suggestion about these photos and had the same thought myself. The two photos are, indeed, on different film strips within the same folder so I wondered whether Tim had two cameras in use as was seen very often in the '60s. Certainly when looking through Tim's photos he was quite punctilious about identifying any photo not of his origin as "Not One of Mine" but it's always possible that some photos slipped through the net. I'm caught on the horns of a dilemma here as, if there are two photographers involved I don't know which are the Tim Mills originals. I'm going ahead with publication while acknowledging that there must be some doubt about the origin of them and they follow in this sequence.

Where a pair of photos exist of the same train Tim's appear sharper and clearer of the two.

Also following on @JimG s observation above it would appear Tim handed a second camera to a second photographer.

 

[oldravendale]

Well spotted, Jim @JimG . By George, I think you've got it! I believe that's Linda, Tim's wife or possibly girlfriend at the time. As far as I can tell the general dimensions look about right ! She accompanied Tim on many if not most of his trips and appears in occasional photos (she's prominent in the one of the cattle crate at Kings Cross, if you remember it. That's img2214 in post #2540.) I agree, Dave @Yorkshire Dave that Tim's photos are somewhat the sharper of the two images which suggests that he was probably using the superior camera.

Seen previously in post #942 is Princess Coronation 46254, City of Stoke on Trent on an up Liverpool train at Tring Station on 14th April 1962. By September 1960 it was a Crewe North engine, came up to Camden in March 1963, back to Crewe North the following month and was withdrawn from there, along with so many of the class, in September 1964. It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for scrapping which had been done by the year end.



Royal Scot 46126 Royal Army Service Corps on the down Welshman at Tring Station on 14th April 1962. This was seen previously in post #3557. The loco had been on the Willesden allocation since February 1961, moving to Annesley in December 1962 before withdrawal in October 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported the loco at Crewe Works in November 1963 and the SLS that it was cut up there week ending 15th November 1963.



Previously in post #1379 Princess Coronation 46245 City of London was a Camden engine in June 1963 and had been there since at least January 1948 (BR Database) although it moved to Willesden in September 1963. (SLS). It was withdrawn from Crewe North where it had been allocated in August 1964 in September the same year (SLS) and was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge during December 1964. (BR Database).



Rebuilt Patriot 45532 Illustrious on the down Lakes Express at Tring Station on 14th April 1962. The loco was allocated to Saltley in July 1961, then Derby in May 1962 and Carlisle Upperby a little over a month later where it was withdrawn at the beginning of February 1964. (SLS). It was recorded in store at Carlisle Upperby between February and December 1964 (WHTS) and went to Campbells, Airdrie (RO) where it was scrapped in January 1965. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

So who is the person standing to the left in the photo of City of London

 

[Barry37]

Well spotted, Jim @JimG . By George, I think you've got it! I believe that's Linda, Tim's wife or possibly girlfriend at the time. As far as I can tell the general dimensions look about right ! She accompanied Tim on many if not most of his trips and appears in occasional photos (she's prominent in the one of the cattle crate at Kings Cross, if you remember it. That's img2214 in post #2540.) I agree, Dave @Yorkshire Dave that Tim's photos are somewhat the sharper of the two images which suggests that he was probably using the superior camera.

Seen previously in post #942 is Princess Coronation 46254, City of Stoke on Trent on an up Liverpool train at Tring Station on 14th April 1962. By September 1960 it was a Crewe North engine, came up to Camden in March 1963, back to Crewe North the following month and was withdrawn from there, along with so many of the class, in September 1964. It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for scrapping which had been done by the year end.

View attachment 227292

Royal Scot 46126 Royal Army Service Corps on the down Welshman at Tring Station on 14th April 1962. This was seen previously in post #3557. The loco had been on the Willesden allocation since February 1961, moving to Annesley in December 1962 before withdrawal in October 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported the loco at Crewe Works in November 1963 and the SLS that it was cut up there week ending 15th November 1963.

View attachment 227293

Previously in post #1379 Princess Coronation 46245 City of London was a Camden engine in June 1963 and had been there since at least January 1948 (BR Database) although it moved to Willesden in September 1963. (SLS). It was withdrawn from Crewe North where it had been allocated in August 1964 in September the same year (SLS) and was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge during December 1964. (BR Database).

View attachment 227294

Rebuilt Patriot 45532 Illustrious on the down Lakes Express at Tring Station on 14th April 1962. The loco was allocated to Saltley in July 1961, then Derby in May 1962 and Carlisle Upperby a little over a month later where it was withdrawn at the beginning of February 1964. (SLS). It was recorded in store at Carlisle Upperby between February and December 1964 (WHTS) and went to Campbells, Airdrie (RO) where it was scrapped in January 1965. (BR Database).

View attachment 227295

Brian

In the foreground, there's a pile of discarded point rodding stools, presumably from recent rationalisation of sidings.

 

[James Spooner]

I’m intrigued by the first two coaches in the train behind City of Stoke on Trent. They have the look of a pair of Gresley streamliners (and I think I can only make out one bogie in the middle, implying they were a twin set) but I wasn’t aware they had left the Eastern or Scottish Regions.

Nigel

 

[Martin Shaw]

Perhaps more likely Nigel is that they were one of the BFK/FK or BTK/TK twins from the Coronation Scot sets that post war were used often in the NW Manchester/Blackpool services. That they appear on a London train is unusual. Larry G will of course be able to give us an accurate assessment, please.
Martin