Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks again Martin.

Your comments are very apposite. I was there for the Kent electrification and, whilst not there in the physical sense was aware of the Clyde electrification through "Trains Illustrated" - I believe I'm right and it was previous to "Modern Railways". That in itself was a retrograde step as far as I was concerned so then became a "Railway Magazine" reader even though the quality of the illustrations was inferior.

The great thing for me about this thread and others on this site is that I'm stating things as I believe they actually were - I was going to say "facts" there. So is Tim. But memories fail us and things we "remember" so clearly are not actually as we remember them. After all, we all know that in the '50s and '60s the sun always shone all through the summer. Never a drop of rain.

To all those who question and qualify the "facts" I state thank you from Tim and I. (In fairness to yours truly I have challenged some of Tim's dates and locations and he can sometimes provide proof - but sometimes he can't.) But what is important to me (my turn to be pompous) is that the details handed down with these photos has been challenged and the discussion can become part of the data attached to the photo. As you say, Martin, it cannot be too long before the first hand knowledge is lost. Your on line ping pong with Larry has been so instructive although I'm still unsure whether Fowler was a good bloke or not.

Moving on, a further offering. Rather less than decently exposed (that's an understatement - it's another of the negs Tim never had printed) is B1 No 61246 "Edinburgh Waverley. August 1955.". (Grain reduction and sharpening employed to the greatest extent without compromising the image). Checking on BR Database tells me that it's "Lord Balfour of Burleigh" which I'd never have known, but now I do the nameplate is clearly visible, even if not readable. It was allocated to St Margarets from October 1953, then Dalry Road from February 1966 before being re-allocated to St Margarets again in February 1958 from where it was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at the Locomotive Works, Cowlairs, during February 1963. (BR Database)



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

They really did plum the depths for some of the B1 names, although I suppose naming them after LNER directors was an honourable enough thing to do. It looks a though it may have backed in from Haymarket shed, it's in back gear and a single tail lamp over the buffer. The vehicle behind looks LMS in origin, quite what the working is impossible to guess.

I suspect Larry and I don't really disgree about Fowler, generally a good guy but probably not the finest locomotive engineer, and not strong enough in character to overcome the internal politics of the Midland and LMS, specifically Anderson who as motive power superintendent was steeped in Midland practice and wouldn't or didn't want to look outside to see the developments elsewhere. It is a subject that some 100 years on is still fascinating and finds views from people who weren't even considered at the time, lets please not start on Gresley & Thompson.
Best wishes
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Such a shame that this one has really significant camera shake. It's described as "Glasgow St Enochs (hope he got that right this time!) August 1955." But as we've seen this location previously I'd say it was correct. My info tells me that it's a Caledonian McIntosh Class 139. A Greenock Ladyburn loco from March 1953 it was withdrawn in August 1957. There's no evidence of where it went for disposal.



Brian

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Brian,

St Enoch, no S!

The Caley bogies weren’t that popular on the Sou West except on the Greenock line. Elsewhere the 2Ps ruled the roost. A few ended their days at Princes Pier stored beside the shed.

Ian.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Well, well, well you learn something new every day.

I was looking at the signals as the back plate was not of a later design and didn't realise, until I checked, the LMS re-signalled St Enoch with colour lights in 1933.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I was going to say, don't be afraid to touch photos up and remove offending objects, but you have already dunnit. Best foot forward for publication and all that. Pre-digital, we used typists white paint provided the back ground was white. I mixed greys using fast-drying cellulose. Even the best railway photographers occasionally failed to spot what would happen when a loco passed a particular spot.

Then there's also that strange accoutrement growing out of the chimney. I took the almost unprecedented action of painting it out, although the "official" version will remain the honest one. So here's the modified scan.

Photo retouching is nothing new and dare say it's been going on since Daguerreotype.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Ian. Tim got it right..... Apologies.

Dave. You are, of course, entirely correct. My concern with our photos is whether they lose objectivity unless they are seen "warts and all". I'm now making the good old British compromise and producing two versions with the "improved" scan identified as such. That satisfies my wish for truth and accuracy whilst hopefully making the best of the images.

Brian

 

[JimG]

Technically the last of the Dunalastair classes, although not known as such. They were basically Dunalastair IVs with Schmidt superheaters fitted from new. Reckoned to be one of the most successful 4-4-0 designs in the UK which started off with Drummond's Class 66 in 1884 and was incrementally developed by Lambie, then McIntosh, to the Class 139 and Class 43 (Robinson superheaters). They were overshadowed by McIntosh's Class 903 Cardean class 4-6-0s when they came out but the 4-6-0s were never as successful as hoped and it is said that the Caledonian became increasingly dependent on the 4-4-0s to run its passenger services.

Jim.

 

[Steph Dale]

I've never heard that articulated quite so succinctly, Jim. It appears to have been a limitation of the 'Scottish School' of locomotive design that it didn't scale up well. As is well known, Drummond's 4-6-0s on the LSWR were a disaster and his last design ended up being for another 4-4-0 and a great success.

Steph

 

[oldravendale]

Here's another of the ever popular (in Scotland at least) MR 2Ps. This is "Dumfries. August 1956. Local to Ayr." Hope that's correct! Looks like a nice soft Scottish summer day. Loco is 40576 which was a long term Dumfries allocation since at least the beginning of 1948 confirmed by the 68B shed plate and "Dumfries" on the buffer beam. 40576 was withdrawn in November 1959 (SLS) and was scrapped in the following January at Cowlairs Works. (WHTS)



Brian

 

[JimG]

It appears to have been a limitation of the 'Scottish School' of locomotive design that it didn't scale up well. As is well known, Drummond's 4-6-0s on the LSWR were a disaster and his last design ended up being for another 4-4-0 and a great success.

Apparently there was one 4-6-0 design which was of note - the Highland Railway "River" class designed by Smith during WW1 and rejected by his Chief Engineer for having axle loadings over the limit for some of the bridge work on the Highland. But they were well ahead of Scottish design for the time, with Belpaire firebox boilers and outside cylinders with Walschaerts valve gear. The Caledonian bought the six locomotives built and they became the 938 class on that line. The Caledonian kept them mainly on freight working, the thought being that they daren't let them anywhere near passenger work lest they show up the existing Caledonian 4-6-0 classes. Four of the class lasted to the late 1930s and two were rescued from the scrap line to use during WW2 at Ayr. Apparently they were nicknamed Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.

Stock Photo - Caledonian Railway 4-6-0 River Class Steam locomotive 73 as LMS 14759

Jim.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
Apart from the historic aspect, a Caley 4-4-0 at St Enoch is unusual enough, I don't think it was worth bothering with that particular neg, there is nothing you can do that will improve it.

The MAS signalling at St Enoch and around the triangular junction, and the Edinburgh boxes also of the 30s were until the late 50s the only locations so treated in Scotland. There were of course odd colour light signals here and there and the LMS had a policy on there Class A lines of making isolated distant signals 2 aspect colour light but other than that nothing. I suspect Scotland being far away from LMS and LNER headquarters was out of mind when capital expenditure was considered.

If I may make a small correction, 40576 was an LMS 2P with 6' 9" driving wheels, albeit derived from the MR design. Interestingly it was built in 1929 as a replacement for the original 576 that was renumbered into S&DJR stock.

This apparent inability to design a decent 4-6-0 in Scotland perplexes me, apart from David Jones notable exception on the Highland Rly, just about every attempt has been largely indifferent and in some instances a complete waste of money. I think part of the problem is a lack of understanding about critical boiler dimensions, most of the 4-6-0s were noted for not capable of producing enough steam for the cylinders at high rates of use. There was a noted academic in America who set out the applicable criteria and pretty much every successful boiler has followed that. Quite why Scottish engineers didn't pick up on this and benefit I can only put down to xenophobic disdain, and quite possibly a lack of money post first war. The rivers as Jim points out were a notable exception.
Regards
Martin

 

[JimG]

Quite why Scottish engineers didn't pick up on this and benefit I can only put down to xenophobic disdain, and quite possibly a lack of money post first war. The rivers as Jim points out were a notable exception.

What always amazed me was that the design offices and workshops of the Caledonian and the North British were literally a stones throw from each other in North Glasgow and were cheek by jowl with the North British Loco Works, and NBL had been producing locos of their own design for export and using very up-to-date design features. You might have thought that there might have been some exchange of ideas even if it might have been unofficial.

Jim.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Jim and Martin for useful background and info on the 2P. I know to my cost that a xenophobic boss will prevent progress if he has a stranglehold on the business - the "not invented here" syndrome. Equally some wonderful bosses who wanted to try anything new. Doubtless there were employees who moved between companies, but perhaps none of them were in possession of a full story to be able to pass the good stuff on. As Steph has pointed out, the LSWR suffered in a similar fashion - the "Drummond effect". But the background is all surmise now as we'll never know the facts.

This one is entitled "St Rollox. August 1956". I'm doubtful...... 56032 was a Drummond/Caledonian Railway Class 264 0-4-0 saddle tank. However, from 1947 it appears to have been allocated to Crewe Works and I can't imagine the circumstances under which it would have gone back to St Rollox for repair - but maybe it did. It was withdrawn in October 1960 (SLS) and scrapped at Crewe Works. (WHTS).

Tim made a visit to Crewe Works in April 1956 and other photos on that trip (yet to appear) are of similar poor quality so I am strongly of the opinion that this photo was taken then.



Brian

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Here's another of the ever popular (in Scotland at least) MR 2Ps. This is "Dumfries. August 1956. Local to Ayr." Hope that's correct! Looks like a nice soft Scottish summer day. Loco is 40576 which was a long term Dumfries allocation confirmed by the 68B shed plate and "Dumfries" on the buffer beam. 40576 was withdrawn in November 1959 and was scrapped in the following January.

View attachment 134406

Brian

Hi Brian,

The location is the bay platform at Dumfries, normally used for the Port Road, Stranraer and Kircudbright, trains.

I don’t have access to a timetable of the period but I would question it being a local to Ayr. Services on the Nith Valley route were normally Glasgow-Carlisle with connections at Dumfries for the Port Road and Kilmarnock for Ayr, the Irvine Valley and Ardrossan/Largs.

By the mid 50’s most of the trains were Jubilee or Black 5 jobs but there was one service which was a Duchess turn. This was a late morning departure from St Enoch, usually only loaded to 3 coaches, just like a Hornby Dublo train set! I understand it was a balancing turn to get the loco back to Carlisle.

Ian.

 

[Steph Dale]

I know to my cost that a xenophobic boss will prevent progress if he has a stranglehold on the business - the "not invented here" syndrome. Equally some wonderful bosses who wanted to try anything new. Doubtless there were employees who moved between companies, but perhaps none of them were in possession of a full story to be able to pass the good stuff on.

I don't think it's that, Dad; don't forget the labour conditions were very different than they are now - jobs were for life, unemployment meant no income at all and loyalty to one's employer was very important. By jobs for life, I don't mean 'careers' (which tends to be how it's understood these days), but job; role or or position with little chance for advancement at all and never beyond chargehand or foreman. The only people who would have understood any locomotive design in detail would have been those within the CME's inner circle - there was no general education in science or engineering and the majority of those working at a locomotive works would have been apprentices in only one trade: Once a riveter, always a riveter. They would have known how to make the part they were making, but extremely unlikely to have known why it was designed that way.

The exceptions to that were the premium apprentices; gifted or monied individuals who had the chance of a more rounded technical education; these were the people who would be lined up for managerial or leadership positions. If they stuck with engineering they could reasonably expect to be a CME or other 'Chief' in their own right some day. That's how designs and practices moved around; how there are 'Scottish' locos on the LSWR, LBSCR and in Australia; 'Great Northern' locos on the LBSCR and many other examples too. Sometimes the boss was a gifted and insightful leader (Maunsell), who understood the need for new ideas (Clayton, Holcroft), valued experience (Surtees) knew their strengths (engineering management and works management) and their limitations (locomotive design). But a CME could equally tend towards the autocratic (Drummond!) leading to technical myopia and stagnation.

Aye, the world ain't wot it used to be.

Thank goodness!

Steph

 

[JimG]

This one is entitled "St Rollox. August 1956". I'm doubtful...... 56032 was a Drummond/Caledonian Railway Class 264 0-4-0 saddle tank. However, from 1947 it appears to have been allocated to Crewe Works and I can't imagine the circumstances under which it would have gone back to St Rollox for repair - but maybe it did. It was withdrawn in October 1960.

It's actually a McIntosh Class 611. When Drummond came to St. Rollox, the Caledonian already had obtained several 0-4-0 pugs from Neilsen (to later become a constituent company of the NB Loco Works). More were required so Drummond built ten more, which were to all intents and purposes, identical to the Neilsen tanks with a few differences. They even had the distinctive eight spoke "T" section driving wheels. This was his 264 class. A few years later, some more pugs were required and McIntosh built another batch whcih were the 611 class. The first four were almost identical to the Drummond pugs but the driving wheels were changed to be twelve spoke with normal spoke section. The last six in the batch had the springs moved to be above the footplate, as this pug has.

So not all Drummond locos were Drummond style - more like Neilsen style. In fact H.J.C. Cornwell notes in his book on Caledonian locos that the McIntosh tanks retained a blower valve to Stroudley design.

Jim.

 

[Ian Rathbone]

I have a photo of 56032 at Crewe Works in Feb 1950. A good clear photo showing it was carrying, at the top of the smoke box door, a 31E (Bury St Edmonds) shed plate! 56027 ended up at Shrewsbury and 56020 at Bromsgrove Wagon Works, via Burton-on-Trent.

Ian R

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

With reference to :- "Until 1959 officially open wagons with wooden frames were to remain unpainted wood with all steelwork painted in BR grey"; REMAIN is the key word here and only makes sense when applied to newly built wagons that have never received a lick of paint on the timbers.. All Big Four pre-war wagons were painted in company liveries, so they came into BR ownership carrying paint.

I thought painting wooden wagons restarted in 1957, which fits with these November 1957 photographs. There is also plenty of photographic evidence that 'railway owned' wagons were looked after better than former private owner wagons. The photo in post 311 also shows the same wagon, useful for anyone modelling it.

Just briefly returning to the subject of wagon liveries, this is my dad's 1951 photo of Willesden Junction (taken from a train on the high level lines) showing wagons in various states.

The data written on the back of the photo reads: Willesden Jc from High Level; 6/10/51; Fair; Steinheil f/2.9; 1/100 f/6.3; Pan X. This was taken when my dad worked at the Met Office in Harrow hence the reference to the weather being fair and 6/10/1951 was a Saturday. For the record the film was processed and printed by my dad as the watermark on the reverse of the photo reads A M Crown Copyright Reserved (AM = Air Ministry).

 

[LarryG]

Interesting picture seeing as it was from 1951. Glad to see it. All have wooden chassis (some look LNWR) and were probably repaired just after the war to keep them going a few more years. One of the wagons is marked 'CONDemned' and I just wonder if those sidings were holding condemned wagons. The 3-plank looks to be carrying used ballast. Few of the wagons appears to have been rebranded by BR.