Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Roger Pound]

I had wondered about the last digit on the "Mystery Princess Royal" being a seven, but the nameplate doesn't look big enough for "Princess Arthur of Connaught" - or perhaps that is only the bracket for it, as by then nameplates were frequently removed when a loco was put in store. There just seemed a vertical aspect of the downward stroke of the digit making it appear straight. Of course, the whole thing is affected by the viewing angle. I understand 46207 was withdrawn on 25 Nov 61, so it could have been at Crewe at the time of the photograph, although nominally an 8A engine.

I must admit that I had a particular liking for 46207 - she was the first of the class I ever saw - excluding the 'Turbomotive' which had passed through a little earlier the same day. That was way back in the late 'Forties'..........

I hope there is something of interest here, even if my thoughts are "way off beam".

Roger

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks again Grahame @Dog Star . You have a nose for these inaccuracies, don't you, for which I'm eternally grateful? That was a combination of finger trouble and "failing to check my work" - again! Scrap date was actually June 1968 which I'll now correct.

Martin @Martin Shaw . Thanks for clarifying the date of allocation to Crewe South for 44679. Also for the precise details for 48345. Both added to the accompanying notes for these locos.

Thanks for your comments Roger @Roger Pound. Sorry to disappoint, but 46207 was at Willesden in store without nameplates at the least between 25th March 1961 and 18th June 1961. It was reinstated in August 1961 at Camden so if the date of the photo at Crewe as 7th May 1961 is correct, and I accept that can always be questioned, it can't be 46207.

 

[Roger Pound]

Thanks for your comments Roger @Roger Pound. Sorry to disappoint, but 46207 was at Willesden in store without nameplates at the least between 25th March 1961 and 18th June 1961. It was reinstated in August 1961 at Camden so if the date of the photo at Crewe as 7th May 1961 is correct, and I accept that can always be questioned, it can't be 46207.

Thank you Brian - it was just a surmise based on aged eyes and a personal whim, to be honest. I am indeed obliged for the additional information regarding 46207.

I regret that I find the depths one can plumb in this electronic age into railway research is now beyond both my skill set and patience, these days. I guess senility has set in, .

Roger .

 

[oldravendale]

I appreciate your further comment, Roger. As for senility, judging by the quality of your communications I think not!

Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75030 at Willesden Station on a freight from Kensington on 20th May 1961. The loco had been allocated to Willesden since the end of January 1960. It then went to Nuneaton in February 1963, Stoke in October the same year and finally Tebay in June 1967 where it was withdrawn at the end of the year. (SLS). It then went to Arnot Young, Carmyle where it was scrapped in July 1968. (BR Database).



Princess Coronation 46235 City of Birmingham coming off Willesden Shed past Willesden Station on 19th May 1961. It had been a Crewe North engine since at least the beginning of 1948 and was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS and BR Database). The SLS reported it stored at Crewe North on 15th November 1964 and then in the Crewe Works Paint Shop at various daes between 14th November 1965 and 8th May 1966 before it went in to preservation – see
46235 City of Birmingham (LMS 6235 & BR 46235)



Britannia 70042 Lord Roberts coming off Willesden Shed past the station on 19th May 1961. At the time it was allocated to Willesden and had been there since February 1961 although it was loaned to Willesden from the end of 1960 by Trafford Park. It moved to Crewe North in June 1963, Crewe South in June 1965, Holyhead in July 1965 and finally Carlisle Kingmoor in January 1966 where it was withdrawn in May 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston in October 1967. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Barry37]

I appreciate your further comment, Roger. As for senility, judging by the quality of your communications I think not!

Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75030 at Willesden Station on a freight from Kensington on 20th May 1961. The loco had been allocated to Willesden since the end of January 1960. It then went to Nuneaton in February 1963, Stoke in October the same year and finally Tebay in June 1967 where it was withdrawn at the end of the year. (SLS). It then went to Arnot Young, Carmyle where it was scrapped in July 1968. (BR Database).

View attachment 220296

Princess Coronation 46235 City of Birmingham coming off Willesden Shed past Willesden Station on 19th May 1961. It had been a Crewe North engine since at least the beginning of 1948 and was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS and BR Database). The SLS reported it stored at Crewe North on 15th November 1964 and then in the Crewe Works Paint Shop at various daes between 14th November 1965 and 8th May 1966 before it went in to preservation – see
46235 City of Birmingham (LMS 6235 & BR 46235)

View attachment 220297

Britannia 70042 Lord Roberts coming off Willesden Shed past the station on 19th May 1961. At the time it was allocated to Willesden and had been there since February 1961 although it was loaned to Willesden from the end of 1960 by Trafford Park. It moved to Crewe North in June 1963, Crewe South in June 1965, Holyhead in July 1965 and finally Carlisle Kingmoor in January 1966 where it was withdrawn in May 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston in October 1967. (BR Database).

View attachment 220298

Brian

In the freight hauled by 75030, the fourth van appears to be an LMS steel van to D1828/29. It's one of the Gloucester RC&W built vans, which had crossed angle iron strengthening on the doors. The other builders used crossed flat strip, or none - perhaps it was inside? There was an article by Mick Moore in MRJ No. 238 (2015) about making 4mm models of these vans.

 

[oldravendale]

More wagonry, Barry @Barry37 . How you detect these things from such a distance is beyond me but I'm glad you do. Should you want any section of a picture blown up (accepting that grain can quickly become an issue) please let me know. I'm always happy to do so. Thanks for the info on this one.

8F 48325 passing the station and making for the shed at Willesden on 19th May 1961. It had been on Willesden’s allocation since the end of December 1950. moving to Croes Newydd in December 1964, Springs Branch, Wigan, in April 1967 and Patricroft in December the same year where it was withdrawn in May 1968. (SLS). It was reported at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield by the RO and that it was scrapped in October 1968. (BR Database).



Black 5 45371 passing Willesden Junction Station with an up Windermere relief train on 19th May 1961. It was at Carlisle Upperby in June 1947 and loaned to Rugby in November 1953 before being allocated to Carlisle Upperby in January 1954. It moved to Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1966 and finally Workington in February 1967 where it was withdrawn in April the same year. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it at Motherwell Machinery and Scrap where it was disposed of in August 1967. (BR Database). Motherwell Machinery & Scrap, Wishaw RO



Jubilee 45709 Implacable on a down Holyhead relief train at Willesden Station on 19th May 1961. It had been allocated to Crewe South since the end of December 1960, moving to Crewe North in June 1962, Saltley in March 1963, Derby in the following July and back to Saltley three months later where it was withdrawn in November 1963 although there’s a suggestion that it may have gone to Crewe North a month later. (SLS). In fact BR Database suggest it went to Crewe North in November 1963 where it was almost immediately withdrawn. It was, however, scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in August 1964. (BR Database).

Implacable made a most unexpected journey on 26th May 1963 when it hauled the Metropolitan Railway Enthusiasts Centennial Commemorative train comprising Dreadnought steam hauled stock from Amersham to Aylesbury tender first and then return after running round instead of the anticipated Fairburn 2-6-4T of the type previously routinely used on the Met steam hauled services. The train was hauled from Baker Street to Amersham and return by Met electric loco No 5 John Hampden – loco changes had previously taken place at Rickmansworth but facilities to do so had been withdrawn on the completion of electrification at Amersham. The train was said to be not overcrowded but the fare of £1 may have restricted support!



Brian

 

[hrmspaul]

This is one of those “shall I post it or shall I not?” photos. However it gave me the opportunity to do some advanced (for me) research. It’s clearly a Princess and described as being possibly in Crewe Works Yard. The date is 7th May 1961. Regrettably the fog bar (very few of Tim’s photos show evidence of fog) goes right through the number plate. The two photos following this one may give a clue in confirmation of the identity and location – note the lighting tower and OHLE gantry in the background. Is this more likely to be the shed or the Works? I’m suggesting it could be 46200 Princess Royal or 46209 Princess Beatrice – fortunately there are not so many Princesses that I couldn’t go through the record for each one in turn.

46209 was allocated to Crewe North in September 1960 (46200 July1959), was stored there in April 1961 and reinstated on 30th June 1961 (as was 46200, but we don’t know when it went in to store, although the SLS also records both to be in store at Edge Hill. On balance this is likely to be a number error – 8A being Edge Hill and 5A being Crewe North). However both locos were seen at Crewe on passenger duties on 20th June. In January 1962 46209 moved to Camden where it was withdrawn in September the same year (SLS), returning to Crewe Works where it was scrapped in November 1962. (BR Database). 46200 went to Carnforth in September 1961, Carlisle Upperby in January 1962 and Carlisle Kingmoor the following April where it was withdrawn in September. It was scrapped at J Connel, Coatbridge, in September 1964.

I suggest this information gives us two options. One is that the photo is actually at Crewe North shed with the loco in store or the date of 7th May 1961 is incorrect. In my opinion, notwithstanding the lack of accuracy of some quoted dates being more than a year out is unlikely. However, see the following two photos. Maybe this is Crewe Works Yard but I can’t work out whether the loco is more likely to be 46200 or 46209...



Due to the lighting gantry and OHLE in the background I’d put these two photos in the same location and on the same date as the Princess above. These are certainly Princess Coronation 46222 Queen Mary and double chimney Black 5 44765. I’ll deal with the Black 5 first.

44765 was a Crewe North loco and had been since at least the end of 1947. It moved to Crewe South in June 1965 and was withdrawn in September 1967. And here’s what I believe in the young person’s argot is “the kicker”. It was recorded on 26th November 1961 in Crewe Works Erecting Shop Yard. (All SLS). As a Crewe North resident that probably moves us no further forward regarding confirming the location. To complete the record as far as I’m able it was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in March 1968.

As for 46222: It had been a Polmadie engine since at least January 1948 and was withdrawn in October 1963 (SLS) and scrapped at Crewe Works week ending 2nd November 1963. (WHTS) However, and this is the important bit, it was recorded in Crewe Works Erecting Shop on 4th June 1961. (SLS). That could fit with the photo of 46209 (if that’s what it is). It still doesn’t tell us whether the locos were in the shed awaiting entry to works or actually in the works sidings but it accounts for them being together at the same time.

View attachment 220166



This is one of the above shots printed a bit darker to show the OHLE and possible lighting tower more clearly.



Hall 4963 Rignall Hall and Warship D811 Daring on the Royal Duchy at Old Oak Common after the diesel had failed on 10th May 1961. The Hall was just about hanging on to its Oxley allocation where it had been since October 1956, moving to Westbury in later May 1961 and Worcester in November the same year before withdrawal at the end of June 1962. (SLS). It was observed by the Railway Observer in Swindon Works on 12th August 1962 and cut up on 8th September 1962. (WHTS).

The Warship was allocated when new in October 1959 to Laira, then Newton Abbot in August 1967 where it was withdrawn in January 1972. It went to Swindon Works where it was cut up on 13th October 1972. (All BR Database).



Brian

The mineral showing the end door is one of the pre-war 12/13T steel minerals. Discussed in Larkin's Acquired wagons.
Private owner 13Ton steel mineral wagons Too rarely modelled, despite having large print private trader liveries and the only known remaining one is beyond repair at the Bluebell. Despite the ones we measured being in York non were saved by either the museum or NYMR (they took some very strange modified hoppers). A really important historical wagon missed by both conservators and modellers. And that beauty I photographed at the SVR. I was proudly told the end door exists as flooring somewhere on their estate.

Paul

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for that background, Paul @hrmspaul . At first sight the SVR decision to not retain and maintain that wagon seems strange although we don't know the full circumstances. Maybe the importance was not recognised or maybe condition was not as good as it appears in your photo. What makes the wagon on the Bluebell beyond repair? If we're considering conservation that may be so but many of the wagons we see on our heritage railways nowadays are a bit like Trigger's broom. Even a repro using the remaining components may be worth consideration but then one needs the will to do it.

Stanier 2-6-4T 42604 at Willesden Station with the milk train from Kensington on 19th My 1961. The loco had been allocated to Willesden since October 1958, moving to Bushbury in June 1963 and finally Aston in May 1965 where it was immediately withdrawn. (SLS). It was scrapped in September 1965 at Cashmore's, Great Bridge. (BR Database).

This is a train I'm trying to emulate. I have two LMS tankers complete and a full brake. There remain three more milk tanks and two Dyson tanks on flat beds to complete. That's all!



Black 5 45412 passing Willesden Station with a down Liverpool train on 19th May 1961 passing an unidentified Jinty. It had been allocated to Edge Hill since the end of May 1960, moved to Bangor in June 1962 and ended up at Speke Junction in November the same year where it was withdrawn in August 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen’s, Kettering, in July 1968. (BR Database).

That's one of the best incidental photos of the signal gantry I've seen.



A lovely portrait of original Patriot 45538 Giggleswick light at Willesden Junction Station on 19th May 1961. It was allocated to Willesden in July 1959 and went to Nuneaton in February 1961 where it was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was reported at Crewe Works by WHTS and was scrapped on 15th November 1962. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Love the picture of 45538 . This Patriot was my first ever recorded 'namer' as a very young initiate in the art of what was then called "train-numbering." It was pre-1948 and the loco then was 5538. It was very dirty and crept slowly by my vantage point on a goods train from Leicester to Nuneaton,
It was getting on for nearly eighty years ago, so bear withe any failings of age with this memory.

Roger

 

[LarryG]

Patriot 'Gilggeswick' has LNWR bogie wheels. Stanier bevel-rim drivers were common enough on the Patriots, but so too were LNWR bogie wheels, which saw a good deal more life than the locos they came off.

 

[oldravendale]

I agree about that picture of 45538, Roger. What an elegant, purposeful design (I reckon. Other opinions are available!)

Thanks for yours, Larry. That's a bit more good stuff to add to the notes. Was the presence of those LNWR bogie wheels what made the accountants able to call Patriots "Rebuilt Claughtons"? (I must admit to having used a similar argument when working to get capital items on to a revenue account. )

Black 5 45020 on a down Rugby train at Willesden Station on 19th May 1961. The loco was quite fresh to Willesden, being allocated there at the beginning of May 1961, then Bletchley in September the same year, back to Willesden in early December 1962 and Stoke in May 1963 where it was withdrawn in December 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in March 1966.



Two here of ex works Britannia 70050 Firth of Clyde passing through Willesden on 19th May 1961 with an up parcels. The loco is carrying a 66A Polmadie shed plate! It had been allocated to Polmadie in August 1954 and the SLS record shows that the loco was seen in Crewe Works Sidings on 7th May 1961 so doubtless fresh out of works. It went to Corkerhill in April 1962, Crewe North in November and Holyhead in December the same year, back to Crewe North in January 1963, Crewe South in June and Banbury in October 1965 and finally Carlisle Kingmoor in January 1966 where it was withdrawn in the following August. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbell’s, Airdrie in October 1966. (BR Database).





SR W Class 2-6-4T 31911 on a Willesden to Hither Green freight at Willesden on 19th May 1961. This had been at Hither Green since at least January 1948 and moved to Eastleigh at the end of the same month this photo was taken. The SLS advise it went to Exmouth Junction in November 1962. It was withdrawn in October 1963. (BR Database and SLS). It was cut up at Eastleigh week ending 5th April 1964. (RO).



Brian

 

[AJC]

I like the shot of the W very much: proper loco! A shame that it's not a little sharper, but the white buffers are something I've not seen on one of those before. As for wagons - the pair of Palvans, second and third vehicles, exhibit the variation in brakegear on the type: the first has four shoe Morton, the second the BR pattern of 8 shoe AVB. Frustratingly, I can't quite see what the vehicle and lowmac are? A small tipper? Something military maybe?

Adam

 

[40057]

I believe 45020 was the oldest Black 5, the first to enter service.

 

[Lancastrian]

I believe 45020 was the oldest Black 5, the first to enter service.

Correct. The whole Vulcan batch entered service before the Crewe built batch.

 

[LarryG]

Thanks for yours, Larry. That's a bit more good stuff to add to the notes. Was the presence of those LNWR bogie wheels what made the accountants able to call Patriots "Rebuilt Claughtons"? (I must admit to having used a similar argument when working to get capital items on to a revenue account.

The rebuild aspect of the first two 'Rebuilds' (marrying the large Cloughton boiler with a Royal Scot type chassis) was an accountancy and tax thing. The next 40 engines were officially rebuilds, but 'renewals' would be a more accurate description. By the time the last 10 were built, all pretence that they were rebuilds was abandoned. 'Patriots', 'Improved Claughtons' or whatever, engine men knew them as 'Baby Scots'.

 

[Dave Holt]

I believe Newton Heath men called the un-rebuilt Patriots "Japanese Compounds", not meant as a term of endearment.
Dave.

 

[Barry37]

The mineral showing the end door is one of the pre-war 12/13T steel minerals. Discussed in Larkin's Acquired wagons.
Private owner 13Ton steel mineral wagons Too rarely modelled, despite having large print private trader liveries and the only known remaining one is beyond repair at the Bluebell. Despite the ones we measured being in York non were saved by either the museum or NYMR (they took some very strange modified hoppers). A really important historical wagon missed by both conservators and modellers. And that beauty I photographed at the SVR. I was proudly told the end door exists as flooring somewhere on their estate.

Paul

Rather unusually (?), the Butterley company seems to have attempted to persuade private owners to have steel bodies used as replacements for wood-bodied (and underframe) wagons. There's a photo of one of these hybrid wagons on the Leek & Manifold, being carried on one of the railway's transporter wagons.
I did once intend to do an all-steel Butterley wagon as a Cambrian kit, but at the time, did not have a photo that showed the end door.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

ubilee 45709 Implacable on a down Holyhead relief train at Willesden Station on 19th May 1961. It had been allocated to Crewe South since the end of December 1960, moving to Crewe North in June 1962, Saltley in March 1963, Derby in the following July and back to Saltley three months later where it was withdrawn in November 1963 although there’s a suggestion that it may have gone to Crewe North a month later. (SLS). In fact BR Database suggest it went to Crewe North in November 1963 where it was almost immediately withdrawn. It was, however, scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in August 1964. (BR Database).

Implacable made a most unexpected journey on 26th May 1963 when it hauled the Metropolitan Railway Enthusiasts Centennial Commemorative train comprising Dreadnought steam hauled stock from Amersham to Aylesbury tender first and then return after running round instead of the anticipated Fairburn 2-6-4T of the type previously routinely used on the Met steam hauled services. The train was hauled from Baker Street to Amersham and return by Met electric loco No 5 John Hampden – loco changes had previously taken place at Rickmansworth but facilities to do so had been withdrawn on the completion of electrification at Amersham. The train was said to be not overcrowded but the fare of £1 may have restricted support!

Black 5 45020 on a down Rugby train at Willesden Station on 19th May 1961. The loco was quite fresh to Willesden, being allocated there at the beginning of May 1961, then Bletchley in September the same year, back to Willesden in early December 1962 and Stoke in May 1963 where it was withdrawn in December 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in March 1966.

Interesting set of vehicles on the left in these two photos - they look like cabs of some sort. Are they a wagon load or is it part of an electrification, permanent way or breakdown train?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

SR W Class 2-6-4T 31911 on a Willesden to Hither Green freight at Willesden on 19th May 1961. This had been at Hither Green since at least January 1948 and moved to Eastleigh at the end of the same month this photo was taken. The SLS advise it went to Exmouth Junction in November 1962. It was withdrawn in October 1963. (BR Database and SLS). It was cut up at Eastleigh week ending 5th April 1964. (RO).

If this train was on Southern Region metals the headcode would be Battersea and Brent. As it's on foreign territory it is carrying the BR standard through freight headcode. Once it reached it's home turf so to speak the headcode would be changed at the first opportunity (usually Kew Bridge) to discs to reflect it's Southern Region route and destination.

 

[Barry37]

Interesting set of vehicles on the left in these two photos - they look like cabs of some sort. Are they a wagon load or is it part of an electrification, permanent way or breakdown train?

The nearer "cab" is similar to those found on bogie track relaying units - slightly overhanging the solebars. The pair of jibs on these faced inwards over the top of the cabin when travelling. The further "cab" seems to be on another wagon.