Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Genghis]

Brian, good luck with the lug holes.

Dave

 

[simond]

Brian
Sorry to ‘hear’ about the hearing issue, most disconcerting.

I assume your 47xx kit is the Finney one, I built one of Martin’s some 25 years ago - it was a delight to build but quite challenging to get across a peco crossover. It’s still one of my favourites. You’ll want the GWRJ special issue for the details!

Good luck!
Simon

 

[Osgood]

And its good luck from me too, Brian.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for your kindness. I hope I won't have to wait too long to have the earoles sorted.

Simon - yes, it's the Finney 47XX (what else could it possibly be?) I'll bear your comments in mind when I get to build it.

Hall 5967 Bickmarsh Hall at Old Oak on a down Didcot and Reading train on 10th May 1961. The loco was allocated to Old Oak Common in November 1960, went in to store there in April 1963 and then moved to Westbury in July the same year before withdrawal in June 1964. It went to Woodham Bros at Barry and further details can be found at

5967 Brickmarsh Hall

5967 Bickmarsh Hall was built at Swindon Railway Works, and was completed in March 1937. 5967 Bickmarsh Hall began its working life in the Midlands working out of the sheds at Chester, Oxley and Ba…

preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com

(and I know it’s Bickmarsh, but we can forgive them that!)



28XX 2-8-0 2807 at Old Oak Common on 10th May 1961. I detailed some of the story about this loco in post #3683. I took a photo in exactly the same location at Old Oak with the same wagon in the background and the coupling rod in an identical position but dated August 1961, and I’m confident about my date. It rather calls in to question Tim’s dating of this set of pictures. Of course, Tim and I didn’t know one another at that time so the similarities here have only become obvious since his death. It’s another one of those cases where our paths unknowingly crossed. I took further photos of this engine in Barry in 1967 and 1968.

2807 was a Severn Tunnel Junction loco from May 1960 and was withdrawn in April 1963, going to Woodham’s at Barry. Details since then are in 2807



This is described as an 8F on the cross London Freight Line with a goods train at Old Oak on 10th May 1961. However, that sounds a bit simplistic so I’ll await further and better details.



Brian

 

[daifly]

Having expressed my lack of passion for the GW I have to admit to admiring the size and yet neatness of the 47XXs. I have a kit for one. And also for the anachronistic Dukedogs, one of which I've already built.

Brian

I'll just throw in a reminder that the late Paul Ashton was building one of these a few years ago and documented his progress here:

Finney7 47XX Build (started during Lockdown)

Well, here we are, stuck in one place and a long way from the Railway Room with House Attached. Which is also where all my modelling tools are located. So a quick order or two and a basic tool kit has been assembled in order to tackle two coach kits and now the Finney7 47XX kit. With limited...

www.westernthunder.co.uk

Dave

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave. That's such a huge loss to our community and I had forgotten about Paul's build.

Thanks again.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Rebuilt Battle of Britain 34087 145 Squadron on the cross London Freight Line and crossing the Grand Union Cnal (proper descriptions will be welcome) on an excursion from the Southern Region on 10th May 1961. The loco was allocated to Stewarts Lane in May 1951, was rebuilt in December 1960 and moved to Nine Elms in May 1961 finally reaching Eastleigh in September 1964 and withdrawal on the last day of Southern steam in July 1967. It was scrapped in May 1968 at Cashmore’s, Newport.

This walk along the canal tow path was my normal route in to Old Oak MPD. I realise that memory plays tricks but I believe the wall turned in to concrete segments a bit further behind the camera and usually a section or two had become, erm, "displaced". But I may be wrong, of course. However - I just checked post #3632 and that clearly shows a concrete segment wall alongside the canal in the background of one of the photos with the requisite segment missing.



On the cross London freight line was Stanier 2-6-4T 42430 on a Kensington to St Pancras parcels train on 10th May 1961. The loco was allocated to Willesden in April 1961, Rugby in June the same year and back to Willesden in December 1962 where it was withdrawn in March 1965 (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in June 1965. (BR Database).



Hall Class 4909 Blakesley Hall at Old Oak Common on a Bristol fitted freight train on 10th May 1961. It had been allocated to Westbury in November 1957, then Exeter in November 1961 and finally Swindon in March 1962 where it was condemned in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in April 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Commiserations with your ear problem, Brian. Sorry to be late in acknowledging your set-back, but am just recovering from a rather nasty viral infection which has kept me 'out of it' for a few days. Hope the intended treatment is effective.
May I say the cross London line pictures are quite intriguing - a neglected area by photographers IMHO but I find pictures always seem to have unusual or interesting features - well, to me anyway!

Roger.

 

[Barry37]

Rebuilt Battle of Britain 34087 145 Squadron on the cross London Freight Line and crossing the Grand Union Cnal (proper descriptions will be welcome) on an excursion from the Southern Region on 10th May 1961. The loco was allocated to Stewarts Lane in May 1951, was rebuilt in December 1960 and moved to Nine Elms in May 1961 finally reaching Eastleigh in September 1964 and withdrawal on the last day of Southern steam in July 1967. It was scrapped in May 1968 at Cashmore’s, Newport.

This walk along the canal tow path was my normal route in to Old Oak MPD. I realise that memory plays tricks but I believe the wall turned in to concrete segments a bit further behind the camera and usually a section or two had become, erm, "displaced". But I may be wrong, of course. However - I just checked post #3632 and that clearly shows a concrete segment wall alongside the canal in the background of one of the photos with the requisite segment missing.

View attachment 220048

On the cross London freight line was Stanier 2-6-4T 42430 on a Kensington to St Pancras parcels train on 10th May 1961. The loco was allocated to Willesden in April 1961, Rugby in June the same year and back to Willesden in December 1962 where it was withdrawn in March 1965 (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in June 1965. (BR Database).

View attachment 220049

Hall Class 4909 Blakesley Hall at Old Oak Common on a Bristol fitted freight train on 10th May 1961. It had been allocated to Westbury in November 1957, then Exeter in November 1961 and finally Swindon in March 1962 where it was condemned in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in April 1964. (BR Database).

View attachment 220050

Brian

Hopefully you can get your hearing problem sorted out, Brian.

The middle photo of the cross London parcels train appears to have in first and third position, two ex-GWR Fruit Ds to Diagram Y11, built between 1939 and 1941. Unlike the similar-sized V11 & V22 vans, the Fruit Ds had three pairs of doors per side, rather than two. This may have been to make it easier to load/unload the fruit without damage; alternatively, if fitted with racks and wire trays like preceding fruit vans, accessing these might be the reason for the extra pair of doors.

 

[Lancastrian]

Brian,

Well spotted with my numbering error, but what's the "Grand Union Cnal"?

I hope your hearing loss is temporary and the medical professionals can elicit a speedy recovery. Like the Grand Union, maybe your auditory canal has lost an A, or your Euston Station tube is blocked. Best Wishes.

 

[AJC]

Hopefully you can get your hearing problem sorted out, Brian.

The middle photo of the cross London parcels train appears to have in first and third position, two ex-GWR Fruit Ds to Diagram Y11, built between 1939 and 1941. Unlike the similar-sized V11 & V22 vans, the Fruit Ds had three pairs of doors per side, rather than two. This may have been to make it easier to load/unload the fruit without damage; alternatively, if fitted with racks and wire trays like preceding fruit vans, accessing these might be the reason for the extra pair of doors.

Squinting hard at the roofs of those, I think (and this is NPCS pedantry of the highest order), the left hand one is one of the GWR builds, you can see the gas lamp tops in addition to the vents. On the right is on of the BR production (electric light, no lamptops) from 1957. The other obvious difference, close up, were the tiebars: rod for GWR, strip for BR.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you all for your kind comments about my earoles! My wife is, as ever, absolutely sympathetic to my sad situation. She's advising friends that "at least he doesn't now stop people he doesn't know in the street to start conversations". I have a date for further work to be done - 14th August. That seems a long time to wait from where we are now but at least I'm on the list. Hope you are back on top form very soon too, Roger.

Tim was pretty good at using the less photographed routes around London. There have been a few photos previously, some of them very good, but these in particular with trains crossing the Cnal (thanks Ian) bring back some happy memories of the anticipation as it passed both Old Oak and Willesden. What was going to be on shed today? Would we get chucked out? Could we bunk the Factory? All these and doubtless other questions were answered in different ways on different occasions.

Barry @Barry37 and Adam @AJC - thanks for your suggestions about the parcels train. I'm very tempted to pull that neg out and rescan at a higher resolution but I'm so up to my chuff i(in a positive way) in scanning colour slides now I'll resist the temptation - at least for the moment.

Castle 5036 Lyonshall Castle passing through Old Oak on the 8.7 Paddington to Bristol on 10th May 1961. The loco was allocated to Old Oak Common in November 1960 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in November 1962 at Cashmore’s, Newport. (BR Database)



Castle Class 5015 Kingswear Castle passing Old Oak Common with the 8.15 Paddington to Birmingham and Birkenhead on 10th May 1961. This was allocated to Old Oak in January 1961, moved to Cardiff East Dock in October 1962 and was withdrawn there in May 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Sheffield, in January 1964. (BR Database).



Crewe South Shed on 7th May 1961 with two unlikely partners – Hall 5940 Whitbourne Hall carrying an 82A Bristol Bath Road shed plate and Jinty 47680. The SLS record the Hall being at Bristol Bath Road between July 1959 and September 1960 when it moved to St Philips Marsh. Perhaps the shed allocation hadn’t caught up yet. It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in September 1963. (BR Database). The Jinty had been allocated to Crewe South from at least the beginning of 1948 and was withdrawn in July 1965 also going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, for disposal which was done in October the same year. (SLS and BR Database).


Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Crewe South Shed on 7th May 1961 with two unlikely partners – Hall 5940 Whitbourne Hall and Jinty 47680. The SLS record the Castle being at....

Brian,

Hall? Castle? Must be confused.com of Crewe.

 

[oldravendale]

Brian,

Hall? Castle? Must be confused.com of Crewe.

Thank you Grahame. How did I miss that on a read through? It's amazing how often one reads what one wants to read and no what's actually there.

Now corrected, with apologies.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

This is one of those “shall I post it or shall I not?” photos. However it gave me the opportunity to do some advanced (for me) research. It’s clearly a Princess and described as being possibly in Crewe Works Yard. The date is 7th May 1961. Regrettably the fog bar (very few of Tim’s photos show evidence of fog) goes right through the number plate. The two photos following this one may give a clue in confirmation of the identity and location – note the lighting tower and OHLE gantry in the background. Is this more likely to be the shed or the Works? I’m suggesting it could be 46200 Princess Royal or 46209 Princess Beatrice – fortunately there are not so many Princesses that I couldn’t go through the record for each one in turn.

46209 was allocated to Crewe North in September 1960 (46200 July1959), was stored there in April 1961 and reinstated on 30th June 1961 (as was 46200, but we don’t know when it went in to store, although the SLS also records both to be in store at Edge Hill. On balance this is likely to be a number error – 8A being Edge Hill and 5A being Crewe North). However both locos were seen at Crewe on passenger duties on 20th June. In January 1962 46209 moved to Camden where it was withdrawn in September the same year (SLS), returning to Crewe Works where it was scrapped in November 1962. (BR Database). 46200 went to Carnforth in September 1961, Carlisle Upperby in January 1962 and Carlisle Kingmoor the following April where it was withdrawn in September. It was scrapped at J Connel, Coatbridge, in September 1964.

I suggest this information gives us two options. One is that the photo is actually at Crewe North shed with the loco in store or the date of 7th May 1961 is incorrect. In my opinion, notwithstanding the lack of accuracy of some quoted dates being more than a year out is unlikely. However, see the following two photos. Maybe this is Crewe Works Yard but I can’t work out whether the loco is more likely to be 46200 or 46209...

Now confirmed as 46212 Duchess of Kent at Crewe South.



Due to the lighting gantry and OHLE in the background I’d put these two photos in the same location and on the same date as the Princess above. These are certainly Princess Coronation 46222 Queen Mary and double chimney Black 5 44765. I’ll deal with the Black 5 first.

44765 was a Crewe North loco and had been since at least the end of 1947. It moved to Crewe South in June 1965 and was withdrawn in September 1967. And here’s what I believe in the young person’s argot is “the kicker”. It was recorded on 26th November 1961 in Crewe Works Erecting Shop Yard. (All SLS). As a Crewe North resident that probably moves us no further forward regarding confirming the location. To complete the record as far as I’m able it was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in March 1968.

As for 46222: It had been a Polmadie engine since at least January 1948 and was withdrawn in October 1963 (SLS) and scrapped at Crewe Works week ending 2nd November 1963. (WHTS) However, and this is the important bit, it was recorded in Crewe Works Erecting Shop on 4th June 1961. (SLS). That could fit with the photo of 46209 (if that’s what it is). It still doesn’t tell us whether the locos were in the shed awaiting entry to works or actually in the works sidings but it accounts for them being together at the same time.

Location now confirmed as Crewe South





This is one of the above shots printed a bit darker to show the OHLE and possible lighting tower more clearly.



Hall 4963 Rignall Hall and Warship D811 Daring on the Royal Duchy at Old Oak Common after the diesel had failed on 10th May 1961. The Hall was just about hanging on to its Oxley allocation where it had been since October 1956, moving to Westbury in later May 1961 and Worcester in November the same year before withdrawal at the end of June 1962. (SLS). It was observed by the Railway Observer in Swindon Works on 12th August 1962 and cut up on 8th September 1962. (WHTS).

The Warship was allocated when new in October 1959 to Laira, then Newton Abbot in August 1967 where it was withdrawn in January 1972. It went to Swindon Works where it was cut up on 13th October 1972. (All BR Database).



Brian

 

[Pete_S]

...can’t work out whether the loco is more likely to be 46200 or 46209...

6200 & 6201 had de Glehn/GW-style slide bars, so not 46200.

 

[oldravendale]

6200 & 6201 had de Glehn/GW-style slide bars, so not 46200.

Oh, good man, Pete! Thank you. I'm going to opt for 46209 being the most likely candidate unless there's any other evidence throwing that theory under the bus.

 

[oldravendale]

Here’s a loco we’ve seen quite recently – in fact too recently! It’s said to be Hall 5967 Bickmarsh Hall here at Old Oak on a down Reading train on 10th May 1961. It was in post #3744 on the same date, in the same location, on a Didcot and Reading train. Checking back on Tim’s notes 5967 is given as the loco on neg number 16A and 26A. I think it very unlikely it could be the same loco. Neither, with consideration of the neg numbers could it be the same train photographed twice. 5967 was allocated to Old Oak Common in November 1960, went in to store there in April 1963 and then moved to Westbury in July the same year before withdrawal in June 1964. It went to Woodham Bros at Barry and further details can be found at 5967 Brickmarsh Hall



Black 5 44679 on a relief Liverpool down train on 20th May 1961. The SLS record is incomplete but Locoshed Books for the period show that between April/May 1957 and October 1963 the loco was allocated to Crewe North. I have no record between October 1963 and when the SLS record starts in June 1965 but it looks as though the loco was transferred to Crewe South at some time during that period. In September the same year it moved to Speke Junction, then Springs Branch, Wigan in February 1966 where it was withdrawn in September 1967. It was scrapped in June 1968 at Cashmore’s, Newport. (BR Database).



8F 48345 tender first on empty stock at Willesden Junction Station on 20th May 1961. It had been allocated to Rugby since July 1959 and moved to Oswestry in December 1964, Shrewsbury in February 1965, Mold Junction in August the same year, Llandudno Junction in May 1966, Stockport Edgeley a month later, Newton Heath in October 1967 and finally Trafford Park in January 1968 where it was withdrawn the following March. (SLS). WHTS report it as going to Draper’s, Neptune Street Yard and BR Database that the date of scrapping was July 1968.



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Black 5 44679 on a relief Liverpool down train on 20th May 1961. The SLS record is incomplete but Locoshed Books for the period show that between April/May 1957 and October 1963 the loco was allocated to Crewe North. I have no record between October 1963 and when the SLS record starts in June 1965 but it looks as though the loco was transferred to Crewe South at some time during that period. In September the same year it moved to Speke Junction, then Springs Branch, Wigan in February 1966 where it was withdrawn in September 1967. It was scrapped in June 1960 at Cashmore’s, Newport. (BR Database).

Um, cut up seven years before withdrawal is a record keeper's nightmare.

 

[Martin Shaw]

44679 Crewe North 13/5/50, Crewe South 29/5/65, Speke Junc 21/8/65, Springs Branch 22/1/66, Wdn 23/9/67.

48345 Swansea 18/3/44, Crewe South 13/12/47, Nuneaton 15/10/49, Rugby Mid 20/6/59, Oswestry 28/11/64, Shrewsbury 30/1/65,
Mold Junc 14/8/65, Llandudno Junc 23/4/66, Stockport 21/5/66, Newton Heath 7/10/67, Trafford Park 27/1/68, Wdn w/e 2/3/68.