Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[mickoo]

Found it, Dave's tip about checking older dates showed the old PO building before it got revamped and it was the first crossroads not the roundabout on Old Street.

Of absolutely no interest to anyone else on the planet but it's made my evening, it might have been revamped but I do remember it being a dark building with lots of glass so maybe not.

Old Street looking west with the PO building on the corner of Bunhill Row.



Dave, yes there were lots of training schools, the GPO had lots of disciplines back then, ours was building maintenance (not bricks & glass but everything else from AC, boiler, plumbing, catering, security, electrical and all covering new installations and existing installation maintenance) but they had the railway, vehicle maintenance, poles and holes, phone exchanges, sorting offices and I'd presume postal counters (the high street shop front so to speak). We had several railway guys in our year all learning electrical and mechanical principles.

 

[simond]

The surprisingly ugly car in 3255 is a BL Princess, either larger engine Mk1 (1975-78) or Mk2 (1979 -81) as it has twin headlights. If I had to hazard a guess, I’d say the year letter is a “P” so comments as Datsun pick-up above.

I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder, but what were they thinking…

 

[mickoo]

The surprisingly ugly car in 3255 is a BL Princess, either larger engine Mk1 (1975-78) or Mk2 (1979 -81) as it has twin headlights. If I had to hazard a guess, I’d say the year letter is a “P” so comments as Datsun pick-up above.

I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder, but what were they thinking…

I had one of them as my first car, flipped it on it's roof at 70, it was a pile of shit car always breaking down but built like a tank, saved mine and my three mates lives, completely crushed the front pillars but the main door hinge ones acted like a roll bar.

Amazingly once we got it home it still ran, we cut the roof off and used it to drag logs from the orchard that summer.

I think they revised the design (oblong headlights was one feature) and changed the name to Ambassador?

 

[oldravendale]

That morphed in to the Rover SD1 did it not? Probably the very worst car I've ever owned. Actually, on consideration not probably.... I traded it in for a Volvo 264. Fantastic car and one of the first with fuel injection but suffered fuel starvation when the weather was really hot. The fuel line ran alongside the exhaust pipe. That was a problem that could be overcome by wrapping the fuel line in aluminium foil. I found out about that the hard way.

I'll catch up with the comments about Shoreditch and any railway stuff in my next. But that may be a while. I have to collect together all this wonderful stuff about Shoreditch/Old Street....

Brian

 

[simond]

I had one of them as my first car, flipped it on it's roof at 70, it was a pile of shit car always breaking down but built like a tank, saved mine and my three mates lives, completely crushed the front pillars but the main door hinge ones acted like a roll bar.

Amazingly once we got it home it still ran, we cut the roof off and used it to drag logs from the orchard that summer.

I think they revised the design (oblong headlights was one feature) and changed the name to Ambassador?

Oblong headlights on the cheap seats….

 

[cmax]

Found it, Dave's tip about checking older dates showed the old PO building before it got revamped and it was the first crossroads not the roundabout on Old Street.

Of absolutely no interest to anyone else on the planet but it's made my evening, it might have been revamped but I do remember it being a dark building with lots of glass so maybe not.

Old Street looking west with the PO building on the corner of Bunhill Row.

View attachment 211258

Dave, yes there were lots of training schools, the GPO had lots of disciplines back then, ours was building maintenance (not bricks & glass but everything else from AC, boiler, plumbing, catering, security, electrical and all covering new installations and existing installation maintenance) but they had the railway, vehicle maintenance, poles and holes, phone exchanges, sorting offices and I'd presume postal counters (the high street shop front so to speak). We had several railway guys in our year all learning electrical and mechanical principles.

the GPO had lots of disciplines back then,

Unfortunately, all dispensed with, including the service, customers are of secondary importance, but I won't go there for obvious reasons.

Gary

 

[simond]

That morphed in to the Rover SD1 did it not? Probably the very worst car I've ever owned. Actually, on consideration not probably...

My dad had two SD1s. Compared to the P6 they were truly awful. I don’t think there was any particular design path from the Princess to the SD1 but they probably shared parts (like Mini indicator stalks, switchgear, inside door release handles, etc). They were fat, bloated, wallowy things with poor handling, lousy brakes, inadequate damping, cheap components and no build pride. The sad end of a very distinguished marque of cars to be proud of.

The first was delivered to his office in Runcorn, he drove home to Birkenhead, and the next day, went to a satellite office in Leeds. Only it didn’t get there. No oil in rear axle. Siezed. Repaired, I suspect it got chopped in for #2 after 2, maybe 3, years.

Number two wasn’t quite so awful. I borrowed it to go to a meeting at Cranfield, and completely faded the brakes (or boiled the brake fluid) on a back road I knew well on the Northants/Beds border, which involved a couple of rather harsh downchanges…. I can’t recall the final straw, but he vowed he would never buy another. He then had a Saab 900, followed by a Saab 9000, both of which were exquisite. Well made, reliable, quick, comfortable, with decent handling if you fancied giving them the beans. (I had the pleasure of regularly driving one of the first two 9000 turbos in the UK, and achieving an indicated ton fifty on the Monmouth bypass about two o’clock one spring morning. Perhaps we better park that)

but we diverge from Tim’s photos.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for keeping this going. I've not ceased posting - just been tied up with family things and more entertaining this weekend. Please no-one tell me the rugby scores as I'm recording the matches.

I'll respond to the comments about the Shoreditch photos as soon as I'm back to dealing with this thread. Once again, though, they are highly valued so thank you all.

Sadly BR Database is still down. I really hope it comes back. In the meantime I'm looking at second hand Locoshed Books on the Bay of E, Abebooks etc. I'm not in the slightest bothered if they are knocked about or marked as they'll be used for reference only. Prices are very variable and some are inexpensive but the deal is always soured by the shipping cost.

Just a final comment about Rover SD1s - or not, actually, as Simond reminded me of my own vehicles (again!). I only had the one SD1, then a succession of OK but quite boring cars like Ford Granadas and Renault Safranes but eventually one of the last Saab 9000 turbos and a Saab 93 for Mrs D. They were both fantastic cars and did everything and more than it said on the tin. In fact, were Saabs still being made I doubt that I'd ever have jumped ship. There still seem to be a lot of 93s around but the 9000 has become quite rare around here.

Brian

 

[ChrisBr]

Sadly BR Database is still down. I really hope it comes back

Brian, news here - BRDatabase availability

 

[oldravendale]

That is a great help, Chris. I know the site originator has had this problem previously but this time it seems to be more serious. I can't hope to understand how facebook steals his bandwidth (is that the correct word?) but that must be a concern for other similar sites.

Does anyone have the BR Database originator's email address? I'd like to make a small £contribution, particularly as I use the site all the time. It'd be nice to tell him how valuable I find his work and it'll also give me the opportunity to comment on any "differences" between the info I glean and that which is published.

Brian.

 

[Barry37]

I failed to acknowledge your information on which Yorkshire Dave commented further. Apologies and thanks to both.

Thanks to Dave, Roger, Mick, Michael, Tim and SimonT for your enlightening and subjective discussion about the noise of various engines. However, nothing beats a Princess Coronation at full chat, and as I'm the owner of this thread I am, of course, correct. Thanks to Yorkshire Dave in particular for your objective comments on the diesel and electric locos.

Adrian - thanks for yours too. Any other un-vandalised plinthed locos we should now consider?

N Class 31854 as a Tunbridge Wells arrival in the bay at Ashford on 3rd June 1961. At first sight I thought this was the same location as the photo of a Standard 2-6-4T in post #3116 but that was at Tonbridge. 31854 had been allocated to Stewarts Lane since late in May 1961, moving to Exmouth Junction in August 1963 where it was withdrawn in June 1964. It was scrapped at Cohen's, Morriston, in December 1964.

Edit: Certainly Ashford, however the headcode indicates Ashford and Hastings. Therefore the train has arrived from Hastings via Rye.

View attachment 210822

West Country 34100 Appledore on the penultimate Saturday Golden Arrow at Tonbridge on 3rd June 1961. This was not strictly true as the Golden Arrow continued to be operated until the end of September 1972 so I believe this should read the penultimate Saturday steam hauled Golden Arrow... In fact Tim was linesiding again a week later and photographed the Golden Arrow again behind the same locomotive - see post #3144. The notes regarding the loco read: One of the BR built and then rebuilt West Country class locos 34100 Appledore had been a Stewarts Lane engine since February 1958 moving to Brighton in November 1962 where it was withdrawn on the cusp of the end of Southern steam in early July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport in October the same year. (BR Database).

Edit: This is Tonbridge as the name states on the end of the canopy.

This will be the penultimate steam hauled Saturday Golden Arrow. The last steam hauled Saturday Golden Arrow was on 10th June 1961 as in post #3144 with the last one being on Sunday 11th June 1961, again by 34100 Appledore. After which which it became electric hauled by the HA class of electric locos E5000-E5023 (Class 71).

The DEMU in the platform on the left is one of the 6 car Hastings 8' wide sets.

The Golden Arrow was a non-stop service between Victoria and Dover/Folkestone as passport control and customs checks were carried out at Victoria, sometimes on the train and on the ferry.

Likewise, as with the Night Ferry from Victoria to Dover. Again this was a non-stop train and it only ever stopped once in it's history at another station en-route to pick up a passenger - one Winston Churchill at Sevenoaks, being the closest station to Chartwell. In 1951 to attend a West European Defence conference in Paris.

View attachment 210823

Schools Class 30936 Cranleigh which Tim describes as on a Tunbridge to Ashford train arriving at Ashford on 3rd June 1961. However, that can't be correct as there is clearly a Standard 2-6-4T on a train immediately behind the Schools hauled train (see next photo). 30936 has been on these pages previously - see post #2627. It had been in and out of store at Bricklayers Arms since at least 1948 and went to Nine Elms in November 1961 where it was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). BR Database suggests that it also spent time at Ashford from June 1959 but that is not confirmed by the SLS. There are various sightings by SLS and LCGB of the loco in store at Eastleigh between May and September 1963 and WHTS records it as being scrapped there week ending 2nd November 1963.

Edit: 30936 Cranleigh Bricklayers Arms 6/35, Ashford 14/6/59, Nine Elms 9/11/61, Wdn 29/12/62, Stored Nine Elms 12/62 - 7/63,
Stored Eastleigh works 8/63 - 9/63, cut up Eastleigh works w/e 2/11/63. Irwell book of.

At Tonbridge as the lines in the background heads straight for Redhill and diverge right towards London. The Headcode on the Schools indicates Folkestone or Dover so this is likely to be forming a local service.

View attachment 210824

This is the train behind the Schools hauled train. It's Standard Class 4 2-6-4T 80144 and Tim advises it to be on a Tonbridge to Eastbourne local train at Ashford on 3rd June 1961. The loco moved to the Southern Region from Neasden in January 1960. The SLS does not advise the first shed allocation on the Southern but BR Database proposes it to have been Brighton. The SLS then picks up the story advising allocation to Redhill in December 1963, Salisbury in June 1965, Eastleigh in December 1965 and Nine Elms in February 1966 where it was withdrawn in May the same year. It was scrapped at Bird's, Bridgend, in September 1966. (BR Database).

Edit: The Tonbridge to Eastbourne train will go via Tunbridge Wells and Tunbridge Wells West to Eridge then either via Uckfield and Lewes or more than likely the 'Cuckoo Line' via Heathfield and Polegate. Note it is formed of restriction 0 Hastings stock.

There is a slight alarm bell in the distant recesses of my mind about the restrictions through Grove Tunnel between the Wells and West which I thought prevented Std 4 tanks passing through, more research I think.
Martin

View attachment 210825

I regret that I've run out of time to put up more German photos today - I want to get in to the workshop to do a bit more on the Royal Scot!

Brian

The Tonbridge to Eastbourne train was much more likely to have gone down the Cuckoo Line, as the Uckfield line junction at Lewes faced the wrong way, which would have meant running round. This was possible on the "Brighton" side of the station, but would have obstructed two lines whilst it was happening
I went by train to school in Lewes (1962-67), and don't recall any such steam loco manoeuvres. Surviving steam trains during the earlier part of that period, were Brighton to London via Uckfield (2-6-0s), and, usually, a Q1-hauled goods which emerged in a cloud of smoke and steam from the tunnel at the north end of Platform 3, bound via the goods loop to Lewes goods yard at around 8:45.

 

[Martin Shaw]

A couple of further comments. Following a look at a book on the Cuckoo line that supports Barry37's comments, I have found pictures of Std 4 tanks working services including 80010, 80089 and 80149, all allocated at the time to Brighton. I have also found a note that in 1956 to increase patronage an hourly service was introduced between Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells West and Eastbourne via the Eridge and Polegate using 2-6-4 tanks and 4 coach sets, which Tim's photo shows admirably. I have also discovered that 80144 was used on the last regular steam hauled service over the route. It also rather disproves my suggestion that Std 4 tanks were restricted through Grove Tunnel.

Martin

 

[Barry37]

A couple of further comments. Following a look at a book on the Cuckoo line that supports Barry37's comments, I have found pictures of Std 4 tanks working services including 80010, 80089 and 80149, all allocated at the time to Brighton. I have also found a note that in 1956 to increase patronage an hourly service was introduced between Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells West and Eastbourne via the Eridge and Polegate using 2-6-4 tanks and 4 coach sets, which Tim's photo shows admirably. I have also discovered that 80144 was used on the last regular steam hauled service over the route. It also rather disproves my suggestion that Std 4 tanks were restricted through Grove Tunnel.

Martin

There's a photo of Brighton shed, said to be 1963, which includes 80147.
Either that year, or 1964 (aged 12 or 13), I did a circular journey from Newhaven via Lewes, Polegate and Eridge, then back down to Lewes. At Polegate, I showed my ticket and inquired when the next train to Eridge was. "Did they tell you (at Lewes) to come *this* way?" I was asked.
There was a long time to wait - an hour or so.
The Cuckoo and Uckfield lines lost a lot of their regular school passengers, when the Grammar school in Lewes went comprehensive (Sept. 1967). Its catchment area included Polegate, Hailsham, Heathfield and Crowborough.

 

[readingtype]

The Silberling steuerwagen (push-pull control/driving coach) on the right is the original BDnf 738 with the Hasenkasten ('rabbit box') driving cab which is effectively half width as it was split by a corridor connection.

Sorry to pull this out of the mists of the past! I realise that this Steuerwagen has a bit-part in the drama but it seems hard to find photos showing the sandboxes that were fitted on the 'leading' bogie (the one at the front when the loco is propelling -- no idea of the correct term in English or indeed German for that matter) so if there are more of these lurking in the Rheine 1974 photos can I hope that someone will shout if the bogies are clearly visible? There should also be a cardan-shaft driven lighting dynamo on one of the four bogie side frames, I think. Again these tend to disappear into the shadows.

Disclosure -- I have some nice old Ade Silberlinge that need finishing off.

Ben

 

[mickoo]

Sorry to pull this out of the mists of the past! I realise that this Steuerwagen has a bit-part in the drama but it seems hard to find photos showing the sandboxes that were fitted on the 'leading' bogie (the one at the front when the loco is propelling -- no idea of the correct term in English or indeed German for that matter) so if there are more of these lurking in the Rheine 1974 photos can I hope that someone will shout if the bogies are clearly visible? There should also be a cardan-shaft driven lighting dynamo on one of the four bogie side frames, I think. Again these tend to disappear into the shadows.

Disclosure -- I have some nice old Ade Silberlinge that need finishing off.

Ben

Like this perhaps.





The second shot of the coach with the corridor connection (removed) is the only one I have with sand boxes, all the other photos I have of that stock (with or without connector) has no sand boxes. conversely, all the smooth fronted coaches all have sand boxes.

I cannot find a single photo of the cardan drive alternator (I know exactly what you mean though), not just driving coaches but any DB coach? More annoying, I know they had them on all DSB coaches as I saw them in the 80's, but again cannot find a single photo of one fitted.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Sorry to pull this out of the mists of the past! I realise that this Steuerwagen has a bit-part in the drama but it seems hard to find photos showing the sandboxes that were fitted on the 'leading' bogie (the one at the front when the loco is propelling -- no idea of the correct term in English or indeed German for that matter) so if there are more of these lurking in the Rheine 1974 photos can I hope that someone will shout if the bogies are clearly visible? There should also be a cardan-shaft driven lighting dynamo on one of the four bogie side frames, I think. Again these tend to disappear into the shadows.

Yes, the N-Wagen Steuerwagen have sand boxes (sandkasten) on the leading drehgestell (bogie) as shown in the photos posted by @mickoo .

Hasenkasten Steuerwagen (bottom photo) have four sand boxes on the leading bogie (just above each axlebox).

Karlsruher Kopf (top photo) also have four sand boxes on the leading bogie (just above each axlebox).

Wittenberg Kopf (below) have two (on the leading axle only) of the leading bogie.

I cannot find a single photo of the cardan drive alternator (I know exactly what you mean though), not just driving coaches but any DB coach? More annoying, I know they had them on all DSB coaches as I saw them in the 80's, but again cannot find a single photo of one fitted.

Yes the cardan shaft dynamo was a feature Minden-Deutz bogies on all coaches however I would have to do more research to find out when this equipment was removed. Found an image though.

 

[oldravendale]

I'm back! So is BR Database so there can be no more excuses.

There's quite a lot to catch up on so firstly thanks.

Mick and Dave for all your input about the Shoreditch, Cafe and GPO photos and the extras from Simond about the awful SD1 and Gary re the GPO.

Then Barry and Martin - suddenly the Cuckoo Line and Brighton pops up again.

Mike for 34014.

Tony for the info about 31067.

Super to see some info here from Ben and the enlargement of the subject again by Mick and Dave.

All this extra stuff has been carefully collected and collated and appears now in the "collected information".

H Class 31500 on Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. By November 1959 it was allocated to Tonbridge where it was withdrawn in June 1961. (SLS). The Railway Observer reports it was cut up at Ashford week ending 1st July 1961.



E4 Class 0-6-2T 32512 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. It went in to store at Redhill in September 1955 but was reinstated at Brighton in October the same year where it was withdrawn at the end of May 1961, so it was already withdrawn when photographed here. The Railway Observer records it as on the scrap road at Ashford on 25 May 1961 and then cut up week ending 22nd July1961.


Here's E1 4-4-0 31067 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961 which was in very recent post #3255. In May 1960 it moved to Stewarts Lane and was withdrawn in November 1961. (SLS). Thereafter it's a bit foggy as WHTS advises simply Ashford Works undated and verification required. However, BR Database confirms it was scrapped in December 1961.



Q1 33029 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. It had been allocated to Tonbridge since December 1947, moved to Feltham in May 1962 and then Tunbride Wells West towards the end of September the same year where it was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). The LCGB reports it was despatched from Three Bridges for Eastleigh on 6th June 1964 and then was observed at Gloucester en route to Bird's at Morriston on 12th July 1964. (WHTS). BR Database reports a scrapping date of October 1964.


Here's our fix of Shoreditch in the 1980s. First the junction of Leonard Street and The Angel at 73 City Road. Nice F Registration Triumph 1300 - I had an E reg one of those!


All we have here is that it's Shoreditch Area again. M Reg Ford Cortina Mark III - I had two of those in succession - wonderful cars both.



Two at the same location again in Shoreditch and this time the works of H Bates but I don't have detail.





Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

E4X Class 0-6-2T 32512 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. It went in to store at Redhill in September 1955 but was reinstated at Brighton in October the same year where it was withdrawn at the end of May 1961, so it was already withdrawn when photographed here. The Railway Observer records it as on the scrap road at Ashford on 25 May 1961 and then cut up week ending 22nd July1961.

The loco is an ex-LBSCR E4 (E4X had a larger boiler). 32512 retains it's original LBSC smokebox door while 32515 behind has an Ashford smokebox door.

 

[oldravendale]

I've just found two more Shoreditch photos which identify the location of H Bates as Chequer Street. Further research will follow...

Brian

 

[mickoo]

The Angel still exists for the thirsty.



The Cortina is in Bunhill Row look south. It would be parked roughly where the bins are on the left.

Technically this is St Lukes, part of the Borough of Islington and outside of Shoreditch (which is part of Hackney)



I'm not sure (pretty confident) H Bates is Chequer Street, none of the buildings match that at all, whilst some may be new, others are moderinzed old structures. I'll keep digging as it'll be in the area somewhere.