Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thank you all for so many comments about those Shoreditch photos. That's really building up the background and this amount of interest is something of a pleasant surprise to me. More to come!

Yorkshire Dave. As ever very helpful. The photos of St Pancras are on the German films so entirely separate from those of Shoreditch. As far as the frame order is concerned I'll endeavour to pull the negatives. As you say, it's a part of London which has changed enormously since the 1980s - Tim also took a series around Kings Cross which is another area changed beyond recognition at a rather later date than these and in colour but they'll not be on these pages for while.

Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. I can identify C Class 31218 on the left and Standard Class 2-6-4T 80036 on the right. The C Class had been allocated to Ashford since at least 1948 and was withdrawn in May 1962. (SLS and BR Database). WHTS records it at Ashford Works on 11th June 1962 although BR Database suggests it was scrapped in April. I suggest that it was almost certainly scrapped at Ashford in June.

80036 appeared in the last post in exactly the position recorded in this shot judging by the water crane next to it. This had been a Watford engine since new in May 1952 and transferred to the Southern Region in January 1960 at Ashford. In May 1962 it moved to Exmouth Junction where it was withdrawn in November 1964. (SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped in March 1965 at Cashmore's, Newport. (BR Database).



West Country 34014 Budleigh Salterton at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. It was allocated to Bricklayers Arms on rebuilding in February 1958, moved to Brighton in June 1962 and then Salisbury in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in March 1965. Railway Observer reported the loco scrapped at Bird's, Bridgend, where it had been observed in January, February, May and June 1966 by either the Railway Observer or LCGB. The proposed scrapping date of May 1966 according to BR Database may be a bit previous. In fact WHTS suggests it was still there in August and at the beginning of September.



Two photos of West Country 34014 Budleigh Salterton, Q1 33035 and Schools 30937 Epsom at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961 with what is probably the C Class referred to above lurking on the left hand side of the second photo. Details for 34014 are in this post above, and for the Q1 and Schools are in the previous post.





For today's visit to Shoreditch in the 1980s (I'll get back to putting these in order if I can a bit later, Dave) I've identified this as being the junction of Clere Place and Tabernacle Street.



These remain in the Shoreditch Area in the 1980s but I have no further details. I can't find any reference to the companies represented on the shop fronts - probably not too surprising as it's at least 40 years ago. I've also tried to read the message in the cartouche in the final shot but it's just a tiny bit unsharp so is not readable (by me anyway!)





Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Pete - thanks so much for yours which arrived while I was crafting the above missive. You've cracked that without any doubt and despite the belief that these locations would have been redeveloped they clearly haven't been - well, at least up to 2009. In fact the whole street scene looks so much less derelict than it did in Tim's photos. I hope you enjoy those above.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Pete - thanks so much for yours which arrived while I was crafting the above missive. You've cracked that without any doubt and despite the belief that these locations would have been redeveloped they clearly haven't been - well, at least up to 2009. In fact the whole street scene looks so much less derelict than it did in Tim's photos. I hope you enjoy those above.

These areas are closer to Old Street - not quite as redeveloped as the area south and east towards Aldgate East.

These remain in the Shoreditch Area in the 1980s but I have no further details. I can't find any reference to the companies represented on the shop fronts - probably not too surprising as it's at least 40 years ago. I've also tried to read the message in the cartouche in the final shot but it's just a tiny bit unsharp so is not readable (by me anyway!)

These two are in Cowper Street EC2A which runs parallel to Leonard Street. Thanks to @Pete_S for narrowing the location to the area around Old Street the first photo shows the property numbering being unusually consecutive which means there is either an empty space or one large building opposite. It was a question of looking at the 1:1,250 and 1:2,500 OS maps which shows the property numbering.

As it turns out the building opposite is the Central Foundation Boys School which has the cartouche.

The comparative views today (from Streetview).



This is the Central Foundation Boys School.



And the cartouche (Charles Watson photo from Historic England website).



And here's an annotated NLS OS 1:1,250 1944-72 extract of the area (Old Street Underground station highlighted in green at top left) with the four photos superimposed.

 

[simond]

Well, the Datsun is “P-reg” so that makes it no earlier than August 75.

 

[oldravendale]

Just a quick question all. I've lost access to B R Database and Rail UK. If both these have shut down I'm in a difficult place as a lot of my background info is lost - as I've said previously my Locoshed Books collection is somewhat limited so there are significant gaps in my data. Does anyone now what's happened to these two sites? Maybe the originators have simply lost interest.

Brian

 

[Gadgie]

I accessed BR database earlier today, but it seems to be unavailable this evening (I just checked). There could be any number of reasons for this, and hopefully it is temporary.

Richard

 

[Arun Sharma]

Gottfried & Paul & Sons could apparently still exist and moved to 112-4, Gt Portland Street and was still involved in textiles - a quick search on the web suggests that the firm may not exist now but if so it's demise might not have been all that long ago.
The place on the opposite corner [Crosbie Marriner Associates] has since moved to 202 Blind Lane by Flackwell Heath Golf Cse [High Wycombe] but again may not now exist.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave. You are on a roll (again). Thanks for yours as well, Simon.

Arun. Having said I could find no reference to the names on the fronts of the buildings that was true - to a degree! In fact I missed the
Gottfried & Paul & Sons and Crosbie Marriner Associates in my rush to get these on to WT. Thank you - that's interesting and a search at Companies House may confirm whether they remain in existence or not.

I appreciate yours, Richard. It' confirms this is not "finger trouble" on my part. BR Database worked fine for me yesterday morning but later in the afternoon had gone. I very much hope it's temporary too. It's my regular starting point for loco histories and all the other info pretty much spins off from that. I miss Rail UK too - that was a good source of confirmation for information. In both cases they represent a huge amount of effort by the authors and it would be very sad if they've lost interest. In the case of Rail UK it seems the title has been taken over and I wonder whether the costs of a title which could clearly be of value to more commercial organisations has caused its demise. However, I guess there's always a silver lining and it will be a relief for all those who have no interest in loco allocations or scrapping dates etc. My own notes for each loco will be incomplete, though.

I'll use my Locoshed Books for allocation info for now - they are an incomplete set and can't provide everything I want but I'll try to buld up the collection to give a more complete picture. There are plenty on eBay at reasonable prices but they soon become expensive when the postage is added. There are quite a few on Abe books as well. Although we have reservations about WHTS I'll use the info there - IMHO the LCGB, RO and SLS data should be reasonably accurate and I'll quote sources, including those from contributors to WHTS where nothing else is available.

No pics yet today - I have other tasks and may not get to the photo files. Just watch this space in case I can add some new ones a bit later.

Brian

 

[mickoo]

These areas are closer to Old Street - not quite as redeveloped as the area south and east towards Aldgate East.



These two are in Cowper Street EC2A which runs parallel to Leonard Street. Thanks to @Pete_S for narrowing the location to the area around Old Street the first photo shows the property numbering being unusually consecutive which means there is either an empty space or one large building opposite. It was a question of looking at the 1:1,250 and 1:2,500 OS maps which shows the property numbering.

As it turns out the building opposite is the Central Foundation Boys School which has the cartouche.

The comparative views today (from Streetview).

View attachment 211184

This is the Central Foundation Boys School.

View attachment 211183

And the cartouche (Charles Watson photo from Historic England website).

View attachment 211185

And here's an annotated NLS OS 1:1,250 1944-72 extract of the area (Old Street Underground station highlighted in green at top left) with the four photos superimposed.

View attachment 211186

Damn, I used to go to the PO training school just east of here in Garrett Street, as our friends across the pond would say, two blocks east

I know Old Street well and used to walk it toward Farringdon and then head north toward Kings X and the Mount Pleasant hotel (now Crown Plaza) twice a day.

Interestingly, our building was adjacent to a stables complex for a brewery that still used horse drawn carts to transport the casks to local establishments, they used to be lined up in the street first thing ready to head out.

Frighteningly, that was all 40 years ago

 

[LarryG]

Your friend may have shot the London street scenes in order to use the film up on his return from the Germany. Haven't we all dun it haha.

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

Anyone got any idea why 34014 in post 3241 has a 3 link coupling on the hook?

Tim

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Anyone got any idea why 34014 in post 3241 has a 3 link coupling on the hook?

Tim

Probably left on by the shed pilot/shunter after the shunting move.

It was not uncommon for shunting locos to carry an additional 3 link coupler on the hooks in order to increase the gap (albeit slightly, but just enough) between itself and whatever it was hauling to accommodate sharp curves in and around yards.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for yours Mick. Now here's a coincidence... Tim was a PO Engineer until he retired in, probably, the late 1980s. He may have been attending a course at the training school when he took this set of photos. In fact one of this set of photos appears to be in a canteen of some sort - it's well out of focus but I intended to include it anyway in the hope that someone may recognise it - it'll be in the next tranche of photos.

Larry - the Shoreditch film is separate from the German films so it's unlikely a "use it up" series. In fact Tim took himself off on occasional photo safaris and in this case I wonder whether Mickoo has the reason. A lunch time stroll, perhaps?

Tim and Dave. Excellent question (again an aspect I'd not noted) and response. Another bit of minutiae to add to the encyclopaedia.

I'm now going back to making up sets of instructions. Bad choice of words there - I should say "assembling".

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

BR Database is back!!!

 

[oldravendale]

Class N 2-6-0 31413 on Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. It was at Dover Marine from June 1959 and theoretically transferred to Eastleigh at the end of May 1961 but is, I suspect, another of the book transfers which didn't happen until a little later. From Eastleigh it went to Guildford in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in mid-June 1964. (SLS). It was then observed at Eastleigh on 12th September 1964 and then at Norwich Trowse awaiting transfer to King's, Norwich, on 21st November 1964. (Both RO). It was finally observed in King's yard on 3rd January 1965. (WHTS). BR Database reports it as scrapped in December 1964.



H Class 31307 on Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. It was put in to store at Hither Green in September 1955 and reinstated at Ashford in December the same year where it was withdrawn towards the end of August 1961. (SLS). It was observed in store at Ashford on 13th August 1961 (WHTS) and then in Ashford Works, cut up 9th September 1961 (RO). BR Database agrees with the scrapping date.



E1 4-4-0 31067 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. To my mind it looks as though it's in store and the chimney being uncovered probably for the last time. The Locoshed Book for the period 26 November 1959 shows an allocation of Nine Elms. However, in May 1960 it moved to Stewarts Lane and was withdrawn in November 1961. (SLS). Thereafter it's a bit foggy as WHTS advises simply Ashford Works undated and verification required. However, BR Database confirms it was scrapped in December 1961.



Moving on to the bonus pictures the first two remain identified by Tim as Shoreditch Area in the 1980s but I've done my own bit of research and identified the building in the next three photos as the Leysian Mission which I believe is in Islington. Actually identifying the building was a cheat by me as it's clearly signed as such. I question whether the the third of these photos shows Old Street Station in the foreground - possibly the second does as well.







Within the same series of photos is this one. I had it down as a works canteen and I wonder whether it's the Post Office training school. Hopefully Mickoo will enlighten us. Apologies on behalf of Tim (bless you my son) for its poor quality.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Moving on to the bonus pictures the first two remain identified by Tim as Shoreditch Area in the 1980s but I've done my own bit of research and identified the building in the next three photos as the Leysian Mission which I believe is in Islington. Actually identifying the building was a cheat by me as it's clearly signed as such. I question whether the the third of these photos shows Old Street Station in the foreground - possibly the second does as well.

Definitely Old Street Station. Since rebuilt and no longer in the middle of the roundabout now the north western corner is now pedestrianised and closed to traffic. Old Street (C&SLR) opened in 1901, redeveloped in 1968 - the building seen in Tim's photos and sat in the middle of a roundabout accessed by stairs and ramps from City Road and Old Street. Then redeveloped again in 2014.

The Leysian Mission Hall still stands on City Road but the 1960s-70s office block to the left on Old Street seen in the photos has long gone - replaced by another glass structure.

Within the same series of photos is this one. I had it down as a works canteen and I wonder whether it's the Post Office training school. Hopefully Mickoo will enlighten us. Apologies on behalf of Tim (bless you my son) for its poor quality.

This looks like a cafe probably near the Post Office Engineering Training Centre. The training centre itself was in Paul Street - the street running from left to right in the photo with the Texaco garage.

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Brian,

many thanks for posting the photo of 34014 Budleigh Salterton, such photos were like hens teeth when I built my version from a David Andrews kit, JPL wheels.



kind regards

Mike

 

[mickoo]

I didn't frequent that cafe, we had lunch in the main PO building canteen which was either on the roundabout (Brian's tall building) or the previous crossroads. We had no facilities in the engineering school as it was quite small, so it was a short walk to the canteen and I'm desperately trying to remember where it was 40 years ago.

It was along Old Street heading east and then turn right and it was the next or next but one building, having said that, I have this niggle it may have actually been on Old Street somewhere between the roundabout and Garrett Street.

At far right is the first set of photos Tim took then the second set at the roundabout, Garrett Street training school was at far left and the two possible PO Offices with canteen shown between.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Within the same series of photos is this one. I had it down as a works canteen and I wonder whether it's the Post Office training school. Hopefully Mickoo will enlighten us. Apologies on behalf of Tim (bless you my son) for its poor quality.

Never mind the trains.... this is more interesting .

Telephone House - the Post Office Engineering Training Centre was on the corner daigonally opposite the Texaco garage behind Tim's left shoulder. Based on @mickoo 's reply it would appear there were several Post Office Engineering Training centres dotted around London.



This is a 2008 street view with the garage on the left and a cafe in Victoria Chambers on Paul Street.



At the other end of the building there is also a cafe which may be the one in Tim's photo as there is a chimney breast on the left which could match.

This is a 2008 view.


As you zoom in on the sandwich bar it retained it's inset single door.

 

[76043]

Going back to the trains, LOL, 31067 gets a mention in Dick Hardy's book as it was a Stewart's Lane engine when he was there from 52 to 55. He specifically says they were on borrowed time and got relegated from the boat trains to two particular trains, on a Saturday, 11.50 from Victoria and the 14.02 from Dover. The 11.50 became a celebrity turn for railwaymen from other regions to come a see them haul 280 ton trains at the end of their careers.

Seems like it wasn't electrification that saw them off, the trains were getting heavier.
Tony