Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

timbowales

Western Thunderer
Those pictures of St Pancras are wonderfully atmospheric.
We’re in an inner city but those street lamps would be equally at home in suburbia. Think of how tall current ones are. Also the small projecting illuminated pub signs, Trumans & Whitbred, brings back memories
Tim T
 

Roger Pound

Western Thunderer
Thank you for the inclusion of the German series, very enjoyable to me and recalling my very limited experience of DB steam which was at Bochum-Dalhausen Museum open day in September 1994. I had the pleasure of seeing two preserved locos, DB Br23 2-6-2 no.23 071 and ex KPEV P8 4-6-0 no.38 2287, which were giving cab rides up and down the length of the site. I believe the Br 23 was operated by a Dutch group. Class 41 241 was also in steam and left the yard with its train for a 'plan-dampf' working. I was able to photograph these activities but only have 6"x 4" prints and transferring these to reproduce as a worthwhile image on this forum is not a skill I have yet mastered :(. However, I did have an illustrated article published about my visit in 'Continental Modeller', I believe it was the following year when it appeared. It should be possible to find if you have access to the site, should anyone be interested.

Roger.
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Tuesday 5th
I was quite surprised to find that the twenty U1s all had a spell on the SE Division post war and as Brian said most, I haven't checked them all , went to Nine Elms on 26/5/61, and then Norwood Junc on 10/10/61, both I suspect book transfers for storage as we have discussed earlier. Some were reinstated at Central division sheds, Stewarts Lane and Brighton figure but the majority of them were withdrawn en-masse on the 29/12/62, and cut up at Eastleigh works during 63. Certainly 31907 followed that pattern. I've found pictures of the class on Oxted trains and one running on a Brighton-Tonbridge train through Groombridge so it's entirely possible that the train is for the TWWest direction.

Wednesday 6th
The P&P set 652 is rather interesting, originally formed in Feb 1935 as the first of four sets (652-655) for services on the Allhallows branch. It consisted of ex LSWR coaches, the driving brake composites S6428 -S6431 46' 6" x 8' 3" being conversions of dia 18 emigrant thirds, the thirds S1 - S4 58' x 8' being conversions of LSWR 50' thirds with an additional compartment and a void mid coach mounted on a SR standard 58' underframe. They were all used on the SE division, principally Hawkhurst, Paddock Wood - Maidstone, Gravesend West Street, Eastbourne - Hailsham, Brighton - Horsham, and later Oxted - T Wells West. Between 1945 and 1949 set 652 was used on Bentley - Bordon services. The third in set 652 was replaced in June 1958 with S1074 an ex SECR 60' 10 compartment 100 seater, possibly one of the most uncomfortable type of passenger vehicles on the SR. Sets 656 -658 which dated from 1937 were visually very similar but had the ex SECR 60' thirds from P&P conversion. From this info I believe Adam's inclination that the train is for Tunbridge Wells West, it make sense. I have an unsubstantiated feeling that June 61 saw the end of P&P working on the SE division except for the Westerham branch whose closure had been delayed and utilised a Maunsell P&P set for the last year.

31904 Tonbridge 14/6/59, Exmouth Junc 26/5/61, Norwood Junc 10/10/61, Wdn 24/11/62, Cut up Eastleigh works w/e 2/2/63

Martin
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
Last edited:

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
The third in set 652 was replaced in June 1958 with S1074 an ex SECR 60' 10 compartment 100 seater, possibly one of the most uncomfortable type of passenger vehicles on the SR.

The 60' 10 compartment 100 seater coaches were built in mind for the proposed SECR surburban lines electrification (1,200v - 1,500v DC third rail side contact) but this never came to fruition due to WWI and its aftermath. However, the SECR suburban lines were some of the first electrified by the SR and a fair number of these coaches were converted into trailers for the SE sections EMUs.
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Dave
I'm sorry but I'm going to correct you in the interests of historical accuracy. The SECR had 66 of these numbered 1372 - 1437. 20 (1372 -1391) in August 1921 BRCW bodies on Gloucester underframes, 10 (1392 - 1401) between Aug and Nov 1921 completely by Birmingham, 20 (1402 - 1421) Ashford bodies on Birmingham underframes between April and Dec 1922, 16 (1422 - 1437) built completely by Ashford during 1923. There were at least three distinct variations in the bodywork styling.
They were as you say originally built to be ultimately used in EMUs and during the 1923 carriage renumbering nos 1372 -1430 were allocated numbers 9058 - 9116 in the electric trailer thirds list, the last six were to remain as steam hauled vehicles and were allocated numbers from the steam list S968 - S974 which they carried until withdrawal. The SR changed their plans and therefore not using these 60 carriages in EMUs so they were given steam list numbers S1054 - S1112, which again they carried until withdrawal.
They were pretty grim vehicles to ride in and considering Lynes had made dramatic improvements to SEC stock its surprising they lasted so long however they were useful because of their high capacity, quite a few were on the loose vehicle list as strengthening coaches, approx 13 were converted for air control P&P sets and the remainder formed in sets. They were all withdrawn between 1958 and 1962.
Martin
 
Last edited:

LarryG

Western Thunderer
Regarding the ex-Ambulance and other LMS conversions to 57' Full Brakes, it is unlikely two were alike. It says much for R. W. Reids celebrated mass-production techniques that coach body frames could be easily altered to accommodate standard window pans and doors.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AJC

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Yorkshire Dave. :)) Hope you enjoyed the German photos too, and thanks so much for all the info. And I'll thank Mickoo for his input at the same time. I've created a pdf of all the collected data which would be attached but the whole file is apparently too large. Nevertheless it exists and is available as a single point of reference.

Tim and Simon. Thanks for your comments about St P. I so agree with you although I have to say that in the late 1950s to 60s it was a gloomy god forsaken place when compared with Kings Cross next door.

Roger. The German photos were a pleasure to display. I'm delighted and not a little surprised at the positive reaction.

Martin and Dave. Thanks for so much detail about those pictures at Tonbridge. Added to those images.

Larry and Adam. That info builds up the details for that picture, so thank you. I particularly like those photos.

For today we'll continue the Southern theme but our extras will be a bit of architecture/local London, period vehicles and streets. As previously comments and corrections will be valued, particularly from anyone who may have lived or worked in the area and has reminiscences to share.

Q1 33035 and Schools 30937 Epsom at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. The Q1 had been allocated to Tonbridge since April 1948. It was transferred to Guildford at the end of May 1961 but that may have been the date of a paper transfer which was followed by actuality. It was withdrawn from Guildford in June 1964. (SLS). It was recorded at Eastleigh in September 1964 and then in transfer from Eastleigh to Norwich in October. (RO). The LCGB record it in sidings at Thetford in December 1964 and it then went to Kings of Norwich.

The Schools was allocated to Bricklayers Arms at the end of May 1961, then Nine Elms in November the same years where it was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). The Railway Observer then recorded the loco at Eastleigh in February/March 1963 then in the scrapyard in May 1963 (SLS) and finally the Railway Observer records the loco being scrapped at Eastleigh week ending 15th June 1963.

img2687 TM Neg Strip 30 34a 33035 & 30937 Ashford Shed 3 Jun 61 copyright Final.jpg

Class D1 4-4-0 31749 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. This had been allocated to Stewarts Lane since June 1953 where it went in to store in May 1954 and was reinstated in June 1955. It moved to Bricklayers Arms (it's carrying a 73B shed plate) in June 1959 where it was withdrawn in December 1961. (SLS). According to the Railway Observer it was scrapped at Ashford Works week ending 13th January 1962.

img2688 TM Neg Strip 30 35a D1 or L1 4-4-0 Ashford Shed 3 Jun 61 copyright Final.jpg

Standard Class 4 2-6-4T 80036 in Ashford Shed Yard on 3rd June 1961. This had been a Watford engine since new in May 1952 and transferred to the Southern Region in January 1960 at Ashford. In May 1962 it moved to Exmouth Junction where it was withdrawn in November 1964. (SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped in March 1965 at Cashmore's, Newport. (BR Database).

img2689 TM Neg Strip 30 28a 80036 Ashford Shed 3 Jun 61 copyright Final.jpg

This two are described as Shoreditch Area in the 1980s but I have no more information. Others will follow.

img4183 TM Shoreditch Area 198- copyright Final.jpg

img4184 TM Shoreditch Area 198- copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 

Dangerous Davies

Western Thunderer
Note the Opel Kadett estate in an otherwise British line up of cars in the shot above. The newsagent in our village replaced his mark 1 Cortina estate with an Opel like that in 1969.
 
Last edited:

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Brian
The two London street scenes have cars with L reg plates which was 1972 so definitely no (later) earlier than then.
Martin
Edited for tense
 
Last edited:

simond

Western Thunderer
Road signs. Rabbit hole alert!



it doesn’t help dating the pictures, but the “STOP” sign is some time after 1963.

upper photo

Range Rover mk1 (production 1970-81)
Mercedes ? “L- reg” so no earlier than 1/8/1972
i can’t identify any of the motorbikes, unfortunately.

lower photo from the right.

Opel Rekord “CaraVan” model D (production 1972-77, replaced by E in 77)
Ford Cortina Mk3 (production 1970-76)
Ford Esvort mk1 van (production 1967-75)
Austin Morris “LandCrab” Mk3 (production 1972-77)
two more Cortinas (one or both of which probably used the same key as the first one)
Morris Marina Van (production 1971-80)

so, assuming my identification of the Opel model D is correct, I conclude “no earlier than August 1972 and given the unlikeliness of having 3 brand new cars in the same street scenes, probably a year or two later”
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Of the two photo of 'Shoreditch' they could be anywhere between Liverpool St, Fenchurch St and Whitechapel. The problem in locating these is the whole area has been considerably redeveloped with new buildings and in some cases street closures.

In the first photo it's a shame we can't read the direction sign on the building to the left of the 'No Entry sign' as there appears to be a company name. It also appears the building behind the Texaco garage may be a Church, Church Hall or Synagogue judging by the clerestory windows.

In the second photo one possible clue is the Church, Church Hall or Synagogue (as there is what appears to be the Star of David - albeit non-geometric - at the top of the arch window facing the photographer). however the building style is too 'rustic' for want of a better word.

@oldravendale - Brian - where do these two negatives sit in the sequence of those taken around St Pancras. Are they in the same strip, is it possible to post these views in frame order as it may start to provide an itinerary from one which could be identified?
 

Pete_S

Active Member
This two are described as Shoreditch Area in the 1980s but I have no more information. Others will follow.

View attachment 211135

View attachment 211136

Brian

The first is the junction of Leonard St. & Paul St. Looking east towards Great Eastern St.:—

1710082674737.png

The second is the junction of Leonard St. & Tabernacle St. EC2 looking west towards Moorgate/City Rd.:—

1710080420139.png
(both earliest views c.2009 on Streetview)

Bishopsgate Goods, Broad Street & Liverpool Street are/were all an easy walk from this area.

Pete S.
 
Top