Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

To add to Mick's post, there was a motive power crisis on the ECML in the early 50's and to sort it the A4s at Grantham were reallocated to Kings +, and in exchange were sent A3s and other things. This allowed regular crews for the Kings + locos with a commensurate improvement in reliability, timekeeping, and cleanliness, together with enthusiasm from Peter Townend the Cross shedmaster, I know Haymarket had a similar approach, fairly easily achieved there, and I presume Heaton must have fallen into line. In my early days at the railway one of the drivers was the late Harry Knox who was a fireman at Haymarket and had forgotten more about enginemanship than I will ever know, the chief traction inspector was Louie Gracie, at one time a ScR royal train driver who I remember with fondness, not least for his stories of firing A3s on the Waverley route, always helpful but you didn't want to be on his wrong side, he knew all the tricks. The hardware of the railway is absorbing but in my experience it is the men and occasionally women who are the most interesting.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Fascinating, Martin.

I loved steam railways but knew nothing of the men - except for my Uncle Ted who drove on the Isle of Wight. His son was his fireman.

When I left school in (about) 1963 the railways were already rather in decline and the writing was on the wall for steam. I made the right decision, with the help of my father who worked for Kodak, and the rest is history. I've learned more about proper railways since I joined WT than I did for a lifetime previously.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Continuing the Kings Cross theme.

A2 60533, "Happy Knight" at what we'll all know now as Bottom Shed (thanks Mickoo) on 31st May 1958. 60533 was a Grantham engine at the time and had been since October 1957. It moved to Kings Cross in June 1958 and made several more changes before ending up at New England in October 1962 from where it was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works where it was cut up in September 1963. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Keith Phillips]

I do work on the proper railway and have learned so much more since joining WT. The depth of knowledge available on here never ceases to amaze me.

 

[AJC]

Interesting collection of mineral wagons behind the A2, too - three, seemingly new to traffic, Minfits (note the different approaches to end door stripes, suggesting different builders) in front and a very fresh looking riveted 21 tonner with pressed end door behind.

There's also a nice clear view of the construction of the foot crossing in front of shot too. Thanks again for these, Brian.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

This time it's two different scans of the same neg. As I'm unsure which I prefer I proffer both for your delectation.

Quite obviously St Pancras at the time when it could best be described as a gloomy, black hole, although the old hotel outside was still magnificent. Unfortunately inside the train shed there was very little to recommend the Victorian architecture which was all the same hade of grime. However, the light relief was provided by the Midland Compounds, which I just saw before they were all withdrawn, and the Jubilees. This photo is "St Pancras. October 1957." and is of 45614, Leeward Islands. At the time it was a Kentish Town loco and had been since at least 1948 although it moved around the system returning to Kentish Town twice more before being withdrawn from Derby in January 1964. It was seen in Chaddesden Yard near Derby on 10th February 1964 (SLS) and 15th February 1964 (RO) and finally Crewe Works at an undefined date. (WHTS). BR Database records a scrapping date of April 1964.




Brian

 

[mickoo]

Continuing the Kings Cross theme.

A2 60533, "Happy Knight" at what we'll all know now as Bottom Shed (thanks Mickoo) on 31st May 1958 which was a Grantham engine at the time. It moved to Kings Cross shortly afterwards and made several more changes before ending up at New England from where it was withdrawn in June 1963.

View attachment 133236

Brian

Technically it should apparently be called 'Passenger Loco' but I think that name refers to the original shed before Top shed became established, bottom shed seems more grass roots level.

 

[oldravendale]

"Euston. August 1956." This is 46229, Duchess of Hamilton, in proper "semi" mode on the Royal Scot. My memories of the Royal Scot are of it regularly being hauled by the LMS Twins, but at the time of this photo (I've not checked) I suspect that they were still on the Southern. The shed plate confirms this as a Camden engine at the time where it had been allocated since July 1952. It went to Crewe North at the end of October 1960 and then Edge Hill where it was withdrawn in February 1964. (SLS). It has spent more than twice as long in preservation as it did in service. For its life in preservation see 46229 Duchess of Hamilton (LMS 6229, LMS 6220 & BR 46229)

Strangely, as it was a line I used not infrequently, I have few memories of the old Euston except for the late lamented Doric Arch, some of which, if not all of which, has been found dumped in the New River, I believe. (Subsequent research says it was in the "Prescott Channel", not the New River.)



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
The LMS twins went to the Southern in March 53 but came back to the LM in the spring of 55 along with the trio of SR diesel locos. It is a matter of regret than neither of them were preserved given they were the start of the main line diesel era in the UK.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Martin. I should have checked for myself!

I saw all five of those diesels in around 1958/9. As I mentioned, the "Royal Scot" was a regular daily duty for the LMS locos - very occasionally a Duchess when, I assume 10000 or 10001 were being serviced. At that time the Southern diesels were usually on locals. A couple of years later and all five of the first generation diesels were on Euston locals.

I agree - there was plenty of opportunity to preserve one of them - 10001 lasted for years. However, is there not a clone being built, using a class 37 as the base?

Brian

 

[Steph Dale]

Dad,

The Baby Deltic repro is Class 37 based. The 10000 project is using a Class 58 for the frame and a set of ex-EM2 (NS 1500) bogies; they even manged to find an original spec engine from somewhere!

Steph

 

[AJC]

Dad,

The Baby Deltic repro is Class 37 based. The 10000 project is using a Class 58 for the frame and a set of ex-EM2 (NS 1500) bogies; they even manged to find an original spec engine from somewhere!

Steph

Here's the project website: https://lms10000.co.uk/. As Steph says, they have quite a good collection of bits, but it's a long way from 'all over bar the platework! The Baby Deltic project is rather more advanced (and also interesting): Baby Deltic Project

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Both interesting projects - but why on earth would you want to recreate an early utter failure?

Having said that the Baby Deltic project looks very well advanced. and all these projects start with a collection of rusty bits. I hope the LMS project are able to make some substantial progress soon.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Both interesting projects - but why on earth would you want to recreate an early utter failure?

I dare say these will be more reliable than the originals.

 

[oldravendale]

I dare say these will be more reliable than the originals.

Rather like 71000.....

Brian

 

[adrian]

This time it's two different scans of the same neg. As I'm unsure which I prefer I proffer both for your delectation.

If I had to choose between the 2 I would pick the second one, I can't define why though!

 

[mickoo]

If I had to choose between the 2 I would pick the second one, I can't define why though!

I agree and was going to post exact same, for me the second works as it shows a broader view, the first is neither a broad view or roster shot and fails in both genres.

 

[mickoo]

Dad,

The Baby Deltic repro is Class 37 based. The 10000 project is using a Class 58 for the frame and a set of ex-EM2 (NS 1500) bogies; they even manged to find an original spec engine from somewhere!

Steph

Fairly sure the 10000/1 engines were used in export engines, Rhodesia had some 1-co co-1 which might have the same prime mover and maybe Egypt, South Africa, Australia too, anywhere we basically exported to in the late 40's to early 50's.

They may also have been industrial (power plants, stand by generators etc) or marine applications.

 

[Steph Dale]

Mick,

Yeah, that's true - the thing I can't quite get my head around though is that there can't have been many of those engines built with Brown Boveri turbos. 10000, 10001, 10201 and 10202 we all know about, but even by the time 10202 rolled out the engine had been uprated to 2000hp and was later used in the EE Type 4 (class 40 to us youngsters)...

That's a really small production window, and they were prototypes too, so 'production' of the engines was almost certainly in low numbers and for uses other than rail.

Edit: yep, MOD standby generators according to the Ivatt Diesel engineering overview, so there we go...

Edit2: the same engine block eventually kicked out 3250bhp in the class 56, which gives an indication of where we are in the development of the technology in c.1947!

Steph

 

[Overseer]

Fairly sure the 10000/1 engines were used in export engines, Rhodesia had some 1-co co-1 which might have the same prime mover and maybe Egypt, South Africa, Australia too, anywhere we basically exported to in the late 40's to early 50's.

They may also have been industrial (power plants, stand by generators etc) or marine applications.

The same EE 16SVT 1,600hp "pressure charged" engine was used in the 12 1A-Do-1A Egyptian State Railways locos in 1948-49. The Southern Region locos had the 1,760hp version, as did the 10 South Australian Railways built 900 class in 1951-2. Not sure about others.