spikey faz
Western Thunderer
Those hornblocks/guides look good. Do you mind me asking what make they are, as I might need to obtain some.
Thanks
Mike
Thanks
Mike
simond
Western Thunderer
These wagons could be very reasonably represented in etch brass. I don’t know if Scorpio (or anyone else) makes a kit, but my experiments with the Mica vans led to a discussion with @magmouse about the old Cooper Craft iron loco coal wagons, which have the wrong size doors, and square corners, but are otherwise great
and it then became a “can this be done?” challenge.There’s a chap on RMW who has already done the N6, his wagons appear to be good scale representations and lovely models, they are printed in two pieces (using a white resin iirc), with separate floors and chassis. I didn’t know this when I started!
GWR N6 Loco Coal Wagon in 7mm, a 3D beginner's first attempt
GWR N6 Loco Coal Wagon in 7mm, a 3D beginner's first attempt
I wanted to do it in a single print, and having hopefully got there, and I'm going to refine the CAD slightly, and print a few more (assuming the current print confirms that the previous one was not a fluke).
And then I’m going to design and print some 20T ones, different to those that are available as Peco Parkside kits, so at some point, I’ll be able to run a varied train of loco coal wagons, and Nick will have a couple more wagons for his collection..
Fraser @Overseer has scratchbuilt an exquisite brass coal wagon. I’m guessing he’s not going to build a train of them, and the thought of trying to a) do what he’s done, and b) build a number of the same wagon in brass fills me with dread, whereas a repeatable process is, to me at least, quite attractive.
I lost count of the number of rivets on the N6, and whilst I wouldn’t claim to have every one, I think I’m close, and they’re all the same, and properly aligned and spaced. If I were scratchbuilding, I’d fail to get that right, and I haven’t the patience anyway, and would end up frustrated, so it’s probably not a way of modelling that suits me. That others can and do get superb results is a joy to behold.
It’s a hobby, you tend to do the bits you like…
simond
Western Thunderer
magmouse
Western Thunderer
…and are too narrow, and have the wrong brake gear, and lack the correct flange along the top of the body side, and….
But are otherwise great.
The real driver behind my persuading Simon to try a 3DP version of an N6 wagon was the need for some empties. Even in etched brass I don’t see how you do the internal rivet detail, unless you do a double skin for the sides and ends. The rivets are a defining feature of these wagons, and being able to get them right is vital to capturing their character - which is always my principal objective.
I’m very grateful to Simon for being prepared to go on this journey, which I suspect has been more work than either of us anticipated at the beginning. Anyway, as Simon has said, if fun is being had, it’s all good!
Nick.
David Waite
Western Thunderer
With the waste that is generated, could it be melted with a solvent and poured into moulds like rock moulds / wagon loads or such to give it a new life or just softened and used as a filler?
David.
David.
adrian
Flying Squad
I would totally agree - to paraphrase a quote "just because you can doesn't mean you should". Alternative idiom - "when all you have in your toolbox is a hammer everything looks like a nail". Don't get me wrong 3D printing opens up a brilliant new avenue for modellers but I've seen it numerous times. When etched brass kits kicked off absolutely everything was built from etches when in certain circumstances white-metal castings were much more appropriate. I view 3D printing as a brilliant replacement for white-metal castings but nothing more. Some of @mickoo work in making 3D prints with built in recesses for strengthening and fixings etc is something we should all learn from.
michael080
Western Thunderer
Seen from the prototype side: 2-dimensional structures like sheet metal can be prototypically modelled in etched sheet. 3-dimensional structures like cast parts are suited for /brass/white metal/3D-printed representation.
But then, for a one time project, things are shifting towards 3d-printing.
Michael
simond
Western Thunderer
My Mica project languishes in a box file…. You may recall, I attempted to emulate the Peco Wonderful Wagons of my youth, by printing full colour body sides and ends, to be laser cut, and glued to a laser cut MDF body core. This was to be mounted on a 3DP chassis, fitted with home turned buffers, Premier couplings and Slaters wheels and wheel bearings.
There were/are some problems, which may yet be overcome.
3DP using FNG resin is somewhat brittle, and I think it’s safe to conclude that it’s better to use sheet metal for the axleguards, and for the link behind the axleguard that connects to the guitar string springing. Etches certainly, laser is better if possible, as there’s no cusp. (Model Engineers Laser only offer down to 0.9 brass which is too thick imo, 0.4 NS would be much better)
the MDF / card roof was disappointing, I am sure I can 3DP something better.
the registration of laser and printed body was not good, but Giles and others have provided guidance, and I think it’s just a step that needs to be re-taken. The corners might still need some development. The printed sides lack relief, eg plank lines, I’m not sure if this is unnecessary or insurmountable. I guess relief could be created by embossing the card, not tried this.
I wasn’t happy with the finish of light card I used, I would have to look for something with a partially glazed surface
I intended to, but had not tried 3DP for the locking bar, doorstops & end steps, but this should be possible.
Wire for handrails, grabs, etc.
my conclusions:
3DP produced exceptional detail on the solebars & buffer beams, and I would certainly go down that route again (effectively copying what Adrian Swain created in whitemetal) but without the W irons. I’m sure the roof would be easy, and much better as a 3DP, and the small body details are surely practical, with spigots to plug into holes in the body.
Would I manufacture a coach this way? No way, but I’d do bogie side overlays and ends, along with seats pax and other internal details for sure. And I’m printing cylinders, brake hangers and shoes, brake cylinders and other details for locos, because I can do it more quickly, closer to scale and repeatably using this technology.
The loco coal wagon project is similarly a bit of experimentation. The chap on RMW created very nice versions of the same N6 vehicle on a different machine, using different resin, and a different design. It’s all part of a collective learning, which is happily informed by the kind of process learning that @mickoo has kindly shared.
I have not yet tried alternative resins, or resin mixes. I’m sure there’s some mileage in that but in the same way that I’m more inclined to buy a ready mixed paint than to mix my own, I don’t want an expensive bottle of “the wrong colour”, good for neither use nor ornament.
What none of us know is whether the models were making will still be around in fifty years, or will have turned to dust…
Atb
Simon
There were/are some problems, which may yet be overcome.
3DP using FNG resin is somewhat brittle, and I think it’s safe to conclude that it’s better to use sheet metal for the axleguards, and for the link behind the axleguard that connects to the guitar string springing. Etches certainly, laser is better if possible, as there’s no cusp. (Model Engineers Laser only offer down to 0.9 brass which is too thick imo, 0.4 NS would be much better)
the MDF / card roof was disappointing, I am sure I can 3DP something better.
the registration of laser and printed body was not good, but Giles and others have provided guidance, and I think it’s just a step that needs to be re-taken. The corners might still need some development. The printed sides lack relief, eg plank lines, I’m not sure if this is unnecessary or insurmountable. I guess relief could be created by embossing the card, not tried this.
I wasn’t happy with the finish of light card I used, I would have to look for something with a partially glazed surface
I intended to, but had not tried 3DP for the locking bar, doorstops & end steps, but this should be possible.
Wire for handrails, grabs, etc.
my conclusions:
3DP produced exceptional detail on the solebars & buffer beams, and I would certainly go down that route again (effectively copying what Adrian Swain created in whitemetal) but without the W irons. I’m sure the roof would be easy, and much better as a 3DP, and the small body details are surely practical, with spigots to plug into holes in the body.
Would I manufacture a coach this way? No way, but I’d do bogie side overlays and ends, along with seats pax and other internal details for sure. And I’m printing cylinders, brake hangers and shoes, brake cylinders and other details for locos, because I can do it more quickly, closer to scale and repeatably using this technology.
The loco coal wagon project is similarly a bit of experimentation. The chap on RMW created very nice versions of the same N6 vehicle on a different machine, using different resin, and a different design. It’s all part of a collective learning, which is happily informed by the kind of process learning that @mickoo has kindly shared.
I have not yet tried alternative resins, or resin mixes. I’m sure there’s some mileage in that but in the same way that I’m more inclined to buy a ready mixed paint than to mix my own, I don’t want an expensive bottle of “the wrong colour”, good for neither use nor ornament.
What none of us know is whether the models were making will still be around in fifty years, or will have turned to dust…
Atb
Simon
mickoo
Western Thunderer
That's disappointing to read, someone has to try, someone has to take the lead and experiment.
If I hadn't experimented and thrown tens of litres of resin effectively in the bin, I wouldn't be where I am now and I suspect a lot of other people who have benefited might also be poorer off.
In 50 years time it won't be your problem
In 20 years it'll definitely not be a problem because technology will have advanced and what you make today will not suit your needs.
In 10 years time you'll probably not care as resins will have advanced and you'll just reprint, if you're even bothered.
There's a lot of wailing and voodoo about how long prints will last, I hear it all the time at shows, looks lovely but how long will it last, I'd never put that on my model until it's a proven material. Several shows later, oh did you hear so and so just passed away, terrible news.
Stop worrying about what might never happen in the future and enjoy what you can today.
As an aside, if some of the white metal I've been working with recently from kits 15-20 years old is anything to go by, then they won't last 50 years either. That's not to say good quality white metal won't; but on the whole, most isn't.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
On the whole there appears to be very little thought given to the effective joining of the different materials, perversely in model railways we're sticking plastic to metal, in other genre's (AFV, ships, aircraft) they're sticking metal to plastic.
The fragility of 3D comes down to one basic point, touch-ability, if you can touch it or it can get knocked then there's a risk of it breaking. Not so much an issue with big blocky objects like sand boxes, domes, tool boxes, ash pans etc, but for springs and other details it can be. The Buffalo springs are on the fragile side but they are secured with metal wire in the three key places and are tucked in behind the splashers and therefore reasonably out of harms way.
The beauty is that this aspect is advancing so quickly, in 3-5 years there will be much fewer concerns and greater durability I suspect.
Last edited:
simond
Western Thunderer
Well, maybe, but I have tried a load of other things and some of them even work…
I’m really very interested by what we can achieve by the application of computers to our hobby, but there’s only so many hours (available for modelling) in the day.
Regarding mixing resins, I didn’t really consider this as an option until you mentioned it a few posts back - I’d like to think that the manufacturers are much more knowledgeable, better informed and equipped to do the chemistry than I am - and I’d honestly prefer them to do it. I spent much of my professional life designing & developing bits of cars, diggers and trains, and I have some respect for the processes that go into the development of vehicles. I always find it a bit daft when somebody in the pub or on the www says “oh yeah, for only fifty quid I can rechip your car and improve its fuel consumption, top speed, acceleration, driveability etc” - I wonder whether the punters who buy these snake oil products ever consider that the vehicle manufacturer could have done whatever the “improver” did, and why they decided not to, given how easy it appears.
Like mixing paint, I’m not saying it can’t be done, but my fear is that I’m likely to end up with mud, rather than GWR stone #3, so I simply haven’t gone there.
Cheers
Simon
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Valid point, but corporate giant has to account for all drivers, where as re-chipping is specific to a particular need, therefore it will be better for that individual but not necessarily for all. It's important to distinguish the two demands and two outcomes.
I've seen/tested/written crane software that has a distinct improvement on the cycle time, but it's been switched out in the final version, primarily because the company wouldn't pay for, didn't need it. But the machine still has to be tested with it and proven to work with it in case it's needed later.
Now I'm not expecting youngsters to drag race container cranes, but the software in there (and I suspect cars) is a toned down version to cover the corporate arses or suit general use over a wider spectrum.
My Golf Mk IV has been mapped, it's a little quicker than spec but better mileage than spec, close to 65 mpg on a long careful run which is pretty good for a car very close to 250K miles and 21 years old. Of course I was warned it would blow up in a few years, that was 12 years ago.
Must be good snake oil
they put in mine then At the end of the day it's what people are comfortable with, what isn't comfortable is all the naysayers knocking on the door of those that do want to try, and there are a lot of them, didn't say it was you, but they're out there and their war drums are getting wearisome
.Anyway, we digress, so onward with the modelling
Last edited:
Richard Gawler
Western Thunderer
Some visitors will have bought 3D prints in the past and been disappointed; and first impressions can last a very long time. Perhaps a range of small, low-priced but pleasing models using your usual technology would tease people with bad experiences into spending a few pounds and forming a better impression. I am thinking of models of small scenic items which might be sold as a whitemetal kit but where printing offers a clear advantage, like doing parts with undercuts.
simond
Western Thunderer
I think that ill always be the case, even with more established technologies - resin boilers, whitemetal, etched brass and laser cut MDF have all had recent issues - but they're well known and well documented means of making models.
There will always be good, bad, and indifferent kits on the market.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Yeah and those cowboys (probably the same ones Simon has seen in the pub doing engine mapping
) are doing the hobby no good at all, I’ve seen the dog chewit’s and quite frankly they’re a disgrace.But, and it is a big but, some people have no issue with them and think they’re great, that aspect I don’t have an issue with because they’re having fun. So if you take that aspect on board who am I or anyone else to knock them.
Personally I think it’s a shame as it costs very little more, and probably less, to get a better quality.
I don’t have the time/inclination or build plate time to do scenic items, I tend to just do stuff I need, which is O gauge models and HO scenery…..when I get around to it.
simond
Western Thunderer
indeed, we have already had the discussion when @Nick Dunhill was building a model based on an Ace kits scrapbox.