Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
Vermillion was what was used on my Scot…not that you can actually see it. Worth the effort though.
Mike
Mike G's Workspace.
- Thread starter Mike Garwood
- Start date
Mike
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
I have to say I also think it looks a little startling when you see bright red inside loco frames, even though I know it's specified on painting diagrams (as you say Mike, vermilion being also specified on GNR paperwork).
The chassis's looking good Mike; sorry I can't offer any ideas on the coupling rod question...
The chassis's looking good Mike; sorry I can't offer any ideas on the coupling rod question...
Dave Holt
Western Thunderer
Not sure about the crack revealing argument. Indeed, on crack prone areas on engineering equipment I had dealings with, painting was avoided as it could risk hiding hairline cracks in the metal due to its plasticity. Brittle liqueur crack detecting coatings being an exception.
Dave.
Dave.
Crimson Rambler
Western Thunderer
The Midland painted the inside faces of the frames, including bogie frames plus the axles vermilion. This was both Derby practice and specified for contractor built engines. I believe the red was continued by the LMS. The inside motion was polished steel - as far as I am aware red rods etc was not Midland practice.
However, during its heyday it went further. Robert Weatherburn the 'King' of Kentish Town had the underside of the boilers on his crack express engines painted pale yellow to reflect light on the motion. If a passenger standing on a platform at St Pancras alongside one of these 'Yellow Bellies' glanced down he or she could see how clean it all was! The extract is of Belpaire 4-4-0 No 2788 (later No 717) sporting its yellow patch under the barrel.
Crimson Rambler
However, during its heyday it went further. Robert Weatherburn the 'King' of Kentish Town had the underside of the boilers on his crack express engines painted pale yellow to reflect light on the motion. If a passenger standing on a platform at St Pancras alongside one of these 'Yellow Bellies' glanced down he or she could see how clean it all was! The extract is of Belpaire 4-4-0 No 2788 (later No 717) sporting its yellow patch under the barrel.
Crimson Rambler
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
So frustrating that we don't have lots of contemporary pre-grouping colour photos! Life in those days must have been far more colourful than we realise.
I'm not very knowledgable about the LMS: may I please ask, what's the interesting looking diamond-shaped design on the splasher?
I'm not very knowledgable about the LMS: may I please ask, what's the interesting looking diamond-shaped design on the splasher?
Last edited:
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
Ah, thank you: the diamond shape looked quite unfamiliar. I'm used to the GNR and LNER ones which are round: clearly I need to broaden my horizons a bit...
Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
Back to the 43xx. Many thanks for the suggestions on getting the crossheads past the crank-pin on the first driver. I tried the Ultrascale crank-pins and I learned something that I didn't know before. The Dimension of the washer that the bush fits through is 0.06 mm deep, the Gibson bush the edge of the 'Top-hat' is 0.03 mm. So I went back to the Gibson arrangement. I reasoned that if the retaining nut could be used to run the connecting rod on, then the battle was just filing enough off the bush and enough off the locking nut so that they shared the connecting rod 50/50. So far the locking nuts haven't undone and the beasty still rolls along nicely.
But this still didn't allow enough for the xhead and con rod to pass. Nothing for it but to widen the etch. So I opened them up by 1 mm. There's some grinding coming from that area now. But some more careful filing and it should be all good.
One of the problems I found that the cylinders were moving around - which just complicated things. The spacer and and screw you can see purchased on top of the cylinders - is there to stop this from happening. When I'm happy with everything this will be soldered underneath the Cylinder etch.
It looks like some far distant cousin of Sonic the hedgehog! These have now been trimmed and tested so that when weight is applied to the chassis, all 8 pick-ups stay in contact with the wheels. I wish the job had taken the short amount of time it's taken to type that!
I've also added a washer or two under the screw that holds the G hanger etch. I had noticed that when the body was placed on the chassis it sat quite oddly. It was by chance that I noticed that this was caused by the G hanger etch being bent up (ever so slightly) when the screw was fully home, that would not allow the body to sit properly.
The brakes are now on as well.
There's still no weight in the body, and I still have to grind out some plastic from the footplate to allow the wheels to rotate without squeaking. Also have to add the lamp irons and the sand boxes under the cab steps, I also need to glue the whistles in place etc...
Getting there. It's been rewarding to overcome the problems.
Stay safe
Mike
But this still didn't allow enough for the xhead and con rod to pass. Nothing for it but to widen the etch. So I opened them up by 1 mm. There's some grinding coming from that area now. But some more careful filing and it should be all good.
One of the problems I found that the cylinders were moving around - which just complicated things. The spacer and and screw you can see purchased on top of the cylinders - is there to stop this from happening. When I'm happy with everything this will be soldered underneath the Cylinder etch.
It looks like some far distant cousin of Sonic the hedgehog! These have now been trimmed and tested so that when weight is applied to the chassis, all 8 pick-ups stay in contact with the wheels. I wish the job had taken the short amount of time it's taken to type that!
I've also added a washer or two under the screw that holds the G hanger etch. I had noticed that when the body was placed on the chassis it sat quite oddly. It was by chance that I noticed that this was caused by the G hanger etch being bent up (ever so slightly) when the screw was fully home, that would not allow the body to sit properly.
The brakes are now on as well.
There's still no weight in the body, and I still have to grind out some plastic from the footplate to allow the wheels to rotate without squeaking. Also have to add the lamp irons and the sand boxes under the cab steps, I also need to glue the whistles in place etc...
Getting there. It's been rewarding to overcome the problems.
Stay safe
Mike
paratom
Western Thunderer
Wonder if any modeller has replicated the Yellow Bellie on a model. Would imagine it would be quite difficult to do and would have to be done before assembling the boiler to the footplate. What services did these Yellow Bellies run on I wonder?
Crimson Rambler
Western Thunderer
I hope @Mike Garwood will permit me to answer @paratom regarding the 'yellow bellies' and yes I can recall seeing at leat one 7mm scale 4-4-0 so adorned.
As far as I know the practice was restricted to Kentish Town. Although other Midland sheds/outstations also displayed livery variations they did not extend to this, furthermore Robert Weatherburn is understood to have restricted it to particularly favoured express engines. It lasted for around ten years starting in the early/mid-'90s until the early twentieth century. Probably it stopped when Weatherburn retired or Deeley took over.
At that time the Midland had no water troughs and the saturated engines, given the speeds/loads they were hauling, were restricted to non-stop runs of around 100-120 miles or so. Hence the yellow bellies were essentially restricted to hauling expresses between St. Pancras and Leicester, Derb or Nottingham and Tilbury. I might be wrong but I think it is unlikely they ran further north at that time.
I will finish with another example:-
The engine is No. 2601 Princess of Wales - built in 1899 but seen here after winning her Gold Medal at the Paris Exhibition of 1900. You can get an idea of how effective the treatment was - on a clean engine! The driver's side crosshead and slidebars are clearly visible reflected in the boiler barrel, as is the lining on the top of the motion plate.
Crimson Rambler
As far as I know the practice was restricted to Kentish Town. Although other Midland sheds/outstations also displayed livery variations they did not extend to this, furthermore Robert Weatherburn is understood to have restricted it to particularly favoured express engines. It lasted for around ten years starting in the early/mid-'90s until the early twentieth century. Probably it stopped when Weatherburn retired or Deeley took over.
At that time the Midland had no water troughs and the saturated engines, given the speeds/loads they were hauling, were restricted to non-stop runs of around 100-120 miles or so. Hence the yellow bellies were essentially restricted to hauling expresses between St. Pancras and Leicester, Derb or Nottingham and Tilbury. I might be wrong but I think it is unlikely they ran further north at that time.
I will finish with another example:-
The engine is No. 2601 Princess of Wales - built in 1899 but seen here after winning her Gold Medal at the Paris Exhibition of 1900. You can get an idea of how effective the treatment was - on a clean engine! The driver's side crosshead and slidebars are clearly visible reflected in the boiler barrel, as is the lining on the top of the motion plate. Crimson Rambler
Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
Having gone down with another cold...modeling has slowed to a snails pace. Today I've added 150 grams of lead to the engine and also ground out the offending plastic to make sure the wheels actually turn.
I had to remove some from under the footplate to allow the chassis to move forward enough for the wheels to fir their arches. Interestingly I didn't have to touch the middle drivers, which makes me wonder just how much movement there was in the Mainline chassis?
This is how I arranged the lead - all the weight is over the drivers and it took an age to get the damn thing to balance. Which is why this looks a little scruffy. Once the glue had dried I slipped the chassis on - it had been on and off during this process to make sure nothing was causing sitting problems. There is space above the motor to add the chip in the firebox.
I can see a slight difference in the engine where the weight has activated the springs - which is what it's supposed to do. I'm not overly happy with the way the buffers are angled, but it's too late to do anything about that now.
Just cosmetics to add now. Shed plate, cab-side number and firebox number plus the pesky lamp irons.
Interestingly enough, for me, I was browsing through GB Jones and D Dunstones' book 'Vale of Neath Line' when I found a photo of a 43xx going across the viaduct in Hengoed...6361. Another project to add to the list for the layout.
The 43 goes into the queue for weathering in March. Bit of a list for weathering. Std class 5, 42xx, 43xx and a pile of wagons and coaches. I have the cl 37 diesel to strip and re-paint and an LMS coach to do the same thing.
The next engine build will be the GWR 51xx from Mr Finney. Chassis is already completed but smokebox and boiler need to be mangled into shape.
As soon as I've added all the bits to the engine and tender I shall post a final picture for this almost completed project...a video will have to wait till it's weathered.
Stay safe
Mike
Edited to correct info.
I had to remove some from under the footplate to allow the chassis to move forward enough for the wheels to fir their arches. Interestingly I didn't have to touch the middle drivers, which makes me wonder just how much movement there was in the Mainline chassis?
This is how I arranged the lead - all the weight is over the drivers and it took an age to get the damn thing to balance. Which is why this looks a little scruffy. Once the glue had dried I slipped the chassis on - it had been on and off during this process to make sure nothing was causing sitting problems. There is space above the motor to add the chip in the firebox.
I can see a slight difference in the engine where the weight has activated the springs - which is what it's supposed to do. I'm not overly happy with the way the buffers are angled, but it's too late to do anything about that now.
Just cosmetics to add now. Shed plate, cab-side number and firebox number plus the pesky lamp irons.
Interestingly enough, for me, I was browsing through GB Jones and D Dunstones' book 'Vale of Neath Line' when I found a photo of a 43xx going across the viaduct in Hengoed...6361. Another project to add to the list for the layout.
The 43 goes into the queue for weathering in March. Bit of a list for weathering. Std class 5, 42xx, 43xx and a pile of wagons and coaches. I have the cl 37 diesel to strip and re-paint and an LMS coach to do the same thing.
The next engine build will be the GWR 51xx from Mr Finney. Chassis is already completed but smokebox and boiler need to be mangled into shape.
As soon as I've added all the bits to the engine and tender I shall post a final picture for this almost completed project...a video will have to wait till it's weathered.
Stay safe
Mike
Edited to correct info.
Last edited:
Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
While I'm waiting for some needed replacements for the 51xx, I've had these coaches back to me to update and get them running nicely. This is a typical GWR 'M'set. I built these, some years back, for NewportRod. They were to run on Little Mill Junction.
The eagle eyed among you will have noticed that the third coach down has no steps under the doors. That's because I put them on the wrong side when I built the coach and didn't notice this when I handed the coaches over to Rod! Rod was probably too polite to tell me .. so that's been put right with a repaint of the under-frame.
All the coaches are Comet and have Bill Bedford sprung bogies they also use the BB coupling between the coaches. Normally I leave the brake detail off these, for one very good reason. They are a complete bu@@er to get right. And if you're viewing the coaches from 3 foot away, it would be difficult to see them.
There had been some damage to windows while they were in storage and this has been rectified as well. The other item(s) that needed replacement where the corridor connections.
As far as I'm aware there are only 3 places to get these. MJT, Modellers Mecca and Masokits.
It's a while since I looked at the MM range but these appear to have transitioned into a joining piece between commercial products, rather than a a pair of bellows. The MJT paper type are probably quite well known and to my mind are not particularly 'finescale'. The Mike Clarke product is a real finger burner, but with the one kit you can produce the single and double scissored variety of bellows.
As I was Googling away looking for alternatives to these 3 products, I found a new product from Mark Seward (you'll find Mark on Facebook). I won't boor you with the details of the build but this picture gives a comparison of MJT and the new ones.
There's still away to go to set these up properly but to my eye these look like the business. They do take a fair bit of time to build.
The back to backs have all been checked and the brakes have been eased to allow the wheels to move freely. To be honest, these really need an etch where the brakes are all part of the fold-up and not a separate etch to be soldered into place that is soldered to a pivot point.
Work with the 43xx has come to a complete stand still - I'm waiting for a DCC chip to arrive. Soon as it's here it'll get installed and that will be that - except for the weathering, and that's not far off from being started.
Stay safe
Mike
The eagle eyed among you will have noticed that the third coach down has no steps under the doors. That's because I put them on the wrong side when I built the coach and didn't notice this when I handed the coaches over to Rod! Rod was probably too polite to tell me .. so that's been put right with a repaint of the under-frame.
All the coaches are Comet and have Bill Bedford sprung bogies they also use the BB coupling between the coaches. Normally I leave the brake detail off these, for one very good reason. They are a complete bu@@er to get right. And if you're viewing the coaches from 3 foot away, it would be difficult to see them.
There had been some damage to windows while they were in storage and this has been rectified as well. The other item(s) that needed replacement where the corridor connections.
As far as I'm aware there are only 3 places to get these. MJT, Modellers Mecca and Masokits.
It's a while since I looked at the MM range but these appear to have transitioned into a joining piece between commercial products, rather than a a pair of bellows. The MJT paper type are probably quite well known and to my mind are not particularly 'finescale'. The Mike Clarke product is a real finger burner, but with the one kit you can produce the single and double scissored variety of bellows.
As I was Googling away looking for alternatives to these 3 products, I found a new product from Mark Seward (you'll find Mark on Facebook). I won't boor you with the details of the build but this picture gives a comparison of MJT and the new ones.
There's still away to go to set these up properly but to my eye these look like the business. They do take a fair bit of time to build.
The back to backs have all been checked and the brakes have been eased to allow the wheels to move freely. To be honest, these really need an etch where the brakes are all part of the fold-up and not a separate etch to be soldered into place that is soldered to a pivot point.
Work with the 43xx has come to a complete stand still - I'm waiting for a DCC chip to arrive. Soon as it's here it'll get installed and that will be that - except for the weathering, and that's not far off from being started.
Stay safe
Mike
Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
Just a quick update...
43xx has had its chip installed and goes to Barrow Road this evening for running trials.
I have nearly finished the M set refurb, Just one more coach to add corridor connectors to. Since this photo was taken I've also added the rain covering to the bellows, full picture of the set to follow. Well impressed with the CC's!
Both sets of buffers are sprung.
Stay safe.
Mike
43xx has had its chip installed and goes to Barrow Road this evening for running trials.
I have nearly finished the M set refurb, Just one more coach to add corridor connectors to. Since this photo was taken I've also added the rain covering to the bellows, full picture of the set to follow. Well impressed with the CC's!
Both sets of buffers are sprung.
Stay safe.
Mike
Mark Tatlow
Member
Mike,
I farted about with the Masokits working corridor connections and did not get on with them. A pain to make, rather delicate in use, don't look like the real thing (in several respects) and sometimes the pressure required to operate them started to cause operational issues (and I only had two of them!).
I thus concluded that fixed connections finished about 1/2mm inside the buffer rest position was the way to go with a small piece of black foam inserted in any fixed rakes to take away the daylight.
I thus designed my own etch that then uses black crepe paper as the bellows and bin liner as a hood over the top. I think they look rather better than Masokit's version or concertina paper. See a rather cruel enlargement below.
Or the etchings without the paper or bin liner in place. They are also conceived to be secured with nuts bolts or glue, so they can be retrofitted to existing coaches without too much damage - I suspect one of our members might recognise their handiwork in this picture.............
I have a fair number of etches if you want to try any? You can find them here British Standard Corridor Connections
I farted about with the Masokits working corridor connections and did not get on with them. A pain to make, rather delicate in use, don't look like the real thing (in several respects) and sometimes the pressure required to operate them started to cause operational issues (and I only had two of them!).
I thus concluded that fixed connections finished about 1/2mm inside the buffer rest position was the way to go with a small piece of black foam inserted in any fixed rakes to take away the daylight.
I thus designed my own etch that then uses black crepe paper as the bellows and bin liner as a hood over the top. I think they look rather better than Masokit's version or concertina paper. See a rather cruel enlargement below.
Or the etchings without the paper or bin liner in place. They are also conceived to be secured with nuts bolts or glue, so they can be retrofitted to existing coaches without too much damage - I suspect one of our members might recognise their handiwork in this picture.............
I have a fair number of etches if you want to try any? You can find them here British Standard Corridor Connections
AJC
Western Thunderer
Was the chassis ever marketed separately? I know the 45xx was, under the Churchward Models label (and Phoenix Precision will sell you one for what I'd reckon an eye-watering £72: Brass kits). David Geen had the rights to the Mitchell range in 4mm but since he's now retired I think that route is closed. There's a Comet kit, of course, and Brassmasters will soon be releasing one of their 'Easi-Chas' for the Dapol version which would probably be usable as a free-standing chassis.
Adam