Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thank you for your confirmation of the location, Dave. I thought I recognised it.

Coming up are the remaining three images taken at the same time.

Although I can't identify the specific loco it's most certainly a 61XX large prairie. However, of greater interest is the train which would make an interesting subject, perhaps, for a small layout. I'm guessing that these are new cars for delivery and I'm a bit surprised that they have no covers on them, although that was, perhaps, the norm.


Next another unidentified loco, this time a Hall on a considerable probably parcels train.



And finally a County in Old Oak Shed yard, with a condensing pannier behind. 1006, County of Cornwall, is complete with name and number plates which suggests a date early in the 1960s. The figures 82 can be determined on the shed plate, and 1006 was shedded at 82C Swindon from mid December 1962 - it's previous sheds had been in the 83 series so this dates the photo quite well as it was withdrawn in September 1963 giving us a nine month window for this and the previous five photos. It went to Coopers Metals, California Sidings, Sharpness where it was scrapped at the end of June 1964.



Brian

 

[LarryG]

Real Counties always look good. I say this because I have yet to see a model County look good. They always look stubby. I put this down to real locos being of a considerable size and we mortals only see them in perspective

 

[Nigel Smith]

Real Counties always look good. I say this because I have yet to see a model County look good. They always look stubby. I put this down to real locos being of a considerable size and we mortals only see them in perspective

Hi Larry,

Here's a couple of shots of mine, any good?

Cheers

Nigel

 

[Mick B]

Please never apologise for taking a thread of mine off piste. I really enjoy the variety, although how anyone would find these Honda CD 175 references if doing a search I've no idea!

Here's the last of the Elsenham photos.

View attachment 148226
View attachment 148227

I have no idea of the spec for these wagons but doubtless a photo in this detail of the end will be of value. I'll be grateful if some kind reader will advise the wagon type Tim has photographed here.

View attachment 148228

A short freight here with what I believe to be an unidentified Class 25. Closer inspection shows these to be Ferry wagons. Again, further info to expand these details will be most useful.

View attachment 148229 View attachment 148230

I take this to be inside the box at Elsenham which appears in the photos above. Just visible through the windows is a Class 47. More info can be gained from the neg with darker printing but the box interior is then too dark to see any detail.

View attachment 148231

Finally photos (or more correctly the full frame and a close up) of unidentified tankers. Further details, please, if possible.

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Brian

The two photos of the Class 25 and ferry vans was taken on the up line at Pinxton which is at the foot of the bank from Kirky (in-Ashfield) Summit, I suspect the ferry vans had come from the Metal Box facility near to Kirkby Summit and no doubt been 'tripped' to Toton.

Pinxton was a 'fringe' box for Trent PSB and if you look closely at the cleared home board you can see the colour light 'back 'un' mounted lower down the semaphore post. The first Trent signal was a short distance in advance towrds the erstwhile Sleights Colliery siding.

Regards, Mick.

 

[oldravendale]

Hi Mick.

I appreciated our chat last night and thanks for the info about Pinxton. That's perfect as, without this, they would have been "location unknown".

Nice pictures, Nigel. Thanks for sharing.

We're on to rather firmer ground with the next four, all identified as Paddington 1963.

The first is a nice classic portrait of a Castle, but frustratingly I can't identify it. Amusingly some wag has cleaned up the 84A shed plate to read 34A, Kings Cross. 84A was Wolverhampton Stafford Road which closed on 9th September 1963 so this photo must have been taken at some time in the first nine months of that year.



Next are two shots of Modified Hall 7904 Fountains Hall, the first running in to the terminus. In the second, at Platform 6 at Paddington the 81A, Old Oak Common, shed plate can easily be read. It was definitely an Old Oak engine in 1961 as it's recorded as such in Shed Bash UK. Strangely, though, there's a dearth of information about the loco's allocation before 1964 when it was recorded at Reading in January and back to Old Oak in the April. Although I can find no records to support it I believe that Fountains Hall was an Old Oak loco in 1963. It was ultimately at Bristol Barrow Road from where it was withdrawn at the end of 1965 going to Cashmore's Newport where the deed was done in June 1966.



Finally for today the "Flying Bomber", Hawksworth 0-6-0PT 1504 in Platform 2, having brought in the empty stock. Is that an inspection saloon I spy behind the loco? It was always an Old Oak engine, being withdrawn during May 1963, narrowing down the date of these photos even further. It went to T W Ward, Briton Ferry where it was scrapped in May 1964.



Brian

 

[daifly]

I suspect that the mystery Castle is 7012 Barry Castle.
Reasoning - what little can be seen of the smoke box numberplate gives the first digit as a 5 or 7 as it has a flat top so not a 4. The second digit is a 0 (it’s a Castle!). Third digit has a ‘pointed’ top so 1, 4 or 6. Fourth digit has a round top so 0, 2, 3, 6, 8 or 9. It doesn’t have a double chimney or Hawksworth tender. The name is very short - the letter shadows suggest 5 characters. The only Castle I can find to fulfil all of these criteria and that was still in use in 1963 and Stafford Road shedded is Barry Castle.
Dave

 

[simond]

Trying to help with the Castle. The first is clearly a short word, four or five letters, and there are enough clues to be confident that the second word is Castle.

5024 Carew
5025 Chirk
5034 Corfe
5035 Coity
5059 Powis (renamed before photo)
5060 Sarum (renamed)
5062 Tenby (renamed)
5065 Upton (renamed)
5082 Powis (renamed)
5097 Sarum
7012 Barry
7019 Fowey
7024 Powis
7026 Tenby
7029 Clun
7034 Ince

I ignored Usk, as I think that’s too short. Leaves 11 possible, I think. If it ends in an ‘S’, it’s 7024.

Working on the very limited visible bit of the smokebox plate, I’d say the second digit is a zero (good…) and the third is a 1. That gives us 7012 or 7019, and I’d say that’s a better guess than the “S”.

either of them fit with the allocations?

 

[simond]

I see Dave beat me to it!

 

[Pete_S]

5063 Earl Baldwin

 

[daifly]

Under magnification, the secoend word on the nameplate is 'Castle"
5024 withdrawn May62 from Newton Abbott
5025 ran with Hawksworth tenders from 1959 to withdrawal
5034 withdrawn from OOC in Sep 62 with a double chimney
5035 withdrawn May 62 from Swindon
5059 withdrawn Jun 62 from Shrewsbury and renamed Earl St Aldwyn in 1937!)
5060/2/5 all renamed in 1937
5082 renamed in 1941
5097 double chimney from Jul 61
7019 double chimney from Sep 58
7024 double chimney from Mar 59
7026 this was a strong contender but I don't think the third smokebox number is a 2 or the fourth number a 6
7029 an OOC loco from Jul 62 to Oct 64. Double chimney from Oct 59
7034 double chimney from Dec 59
Which leaves 7012.......
Dave

 

[simond]

As Mrs Dove said (very loudly) “I agree with him!”

 

[Dan Randall]

5063 Earl Baldwin

Despite Dave and Simon’s most thorough reasoning, I’ll go along with that Pete.


Regards

Dan

 

[Heather Kay]

Despite Dave and Simon’s most thorough reasoning, I’ll go along with that Pete.

It may be confirmation bias, but I think I agree with Dan. I’ve zoomed into the nameplate, and the pixels certainly appear to arrange themselves to resemble Earl Baldwin.

 

[daifly]

Well, I've revisited this and have to say, I'm going to join the support for Pete_S's suggestion of 5063 Earl Baldwin. The GWR & BR could have made our lives a little easier as most renamed Castles - the Warplanes, Regiments and People had a "Castle Class" sub text on the nameplate but the Earls did not.
Frustratingly, I haven't yet found a late photo of the driver's side of 5063. Tim's photo shows a loco with the long cover over the superheater oil pipes which would be correct for the later 3- and 4-row superheater boiler fitted to 5063 (and 7012!).
It's been an interesting (for me) investigation and I've learned a lot about Castles in the process but I'm happy with 5063.

 

[simond]

I could go along with the “Earl” bit, and there’s something that could be an “L” in the right place in the second word, but I’m seeing an “S” in the middle of it too, and the end of the second word still looks like “LE” to me. Trouble is, it’s like seeing faces in the flames…

I rather fancy the first digit of the cabside is more likely a “5” than a “7”, however…

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks to everyone who's had a go at identifying that Castle. I've distributed some "Likes" accordingly. However, I'm not convinced - yet. Following all this background I've done a bit of homework. It seems, from all the images I've looked at of Castles in service neither those with "Castle" in the name nor those with "Earl" had the "Castle Class" subscript. Neither did those with names of Regiments. However the Abbeys and those named after aircraft did (as has already been pointed out). Therefore that could still be either a Castle or an Earl name. I then concentrated on the three contenders. As expected 7012 had no subscript and it was an 84A engine from 13th June 1961 to 9th September 1963. 7019 had no subscript either and was at 84A from either May or November 1961 depending on which reference you believe and left on 7th or 9th September 1963. 5063 also had no subscript and was at 84A from 16th April 1958 until 9th September 1963. All in all none of this moves us any further with a confirmation, and depending on which way the wind is blowing I can read "Earl" as the first word or "Castle" as the last.

I suggest that the best I can do when detailing this one is to give the options and let any subsequent viewer make up their own mind.

Moving on to the next batch, although still in the environs of Old Oak, these are dated April 1963, a date which could well apply to the three photos above.

The first is an unidentified "Grange" (I believe) on a parcels. That's a rather nice image of what I believe to be an LMS Full Brake and I know that if I'm wrong someone will quickly point out the error of my ways.




Next Modified Hall 7906 Fron Hall, a Reading engine from 1950 until June 1963 when it went to Oxford. It then went back to Reading but was finally at Oxford again from where it was withdrawn in March 1965. It was scrapped at Swindon Works at the end of May the same year. The first is Tim's original formatting and the second is a landscape version taken from the neg. I personally think Tim's version is more dramatic.





And this is a less than perky looking Castle, 7002 Devizes Castle. It was at Worcester at the end of November 1959 and stayed there until withdrawal in March 1964. It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge in June.



Brian

 

[AJC]

The LMS full brake is @LarryG's area - it's a Period I type, though it has lost/had plated over quite a decent proportion of the mouldings that characterise that era of LMS coaching stock. The Comet instructions for their 4mm kit suggest that this was built in 1929/30 (and they're probably lifted from Jenkinson and Essery): https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/m10.pdf

Adam

 

[LarryG]

Yup, a stndard D1778 LMS Period I 50' full brake. Note the later ducket. The earliest coaches built 1925-6 had the earlier rounded corner pressing. As AJC notes, quite a lot of the railsed panelling has been removed. These coaches were built with full length footboards, so it appears some or all were later converted to individual footboards as per the Period III variants.

Fron Hall looks very clean (recently ex-works repaint?).

 

[daifly]

Hi Brian. This is why 7019 was not a contender. Clue for non-GWR afficionados - it's the double chimney.

Fitted in September 1958 and still there in May 1963:

Dave

 

[Overseer]

5063 Earl Baldwin

I agree, based on the spacing of the visible bits of the numerals on the front number plate. It matches the previous photo of 5063. If the third digit was a 1 it would be centred between the adjacent digits. Also, the top of the chimney looks odd and the same in both the photo of 5063 and the mystery loco.