Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Here's the third...

J39 0-6-0 64768 at Witham North of the Bridge on an up fast goods on 14th March 1959 which appears to be mainly containers but with a cattle wagon immediately behind the engine. Allocated to Stratford since September 1949 the loco was withdrawn in May 1959 (SLS) and was cut up at Stratford in September the same year. (BR Database).

 

[oldravendale]

...and the fourth. Hopefully normal service will be resumed tomorrow.

Aah. WT clearly doesn't like the commentary on this one for some reason. I wonder why? I'll try reposting tomorrow or maybe later today.

So here's the amended paragraph:
Named B1 61004 Oryx again at Witham North of the Bridge on an up fast goods on 14th March 1959. Home at the time was Parkeston Quay where it had been allocated in February 1959. It then moved to March in December 1959, Sheffield Darnall in January1960, Mexborough in October and Canklow in December 1962 where it was withdrawn in December 1964 according to the SLS - 28 December 1963 according to Yeadons. BR Database and Yeadons suggest it went in to Darlington Works on 21st March 1964 for disposal. It was seen in the stripping shop in Darlington on 25th January 1964 (RO) and cut up in March 1964. (BR database).




Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Brian, 70039 is carrying express head lamps so cannot be an empty stock working. The reversed headboard is perhaps because that wasn't the named train but the loco was carrying it from a previous working?
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for you advice there Dave @Dave Holt. It looks as though Tim's original description was correct and all I've succeeded in doing is dragging a red herring across the path. I'll try to deal with the issue by way of an edit but if that doesn't work I'll add your comments to the picture file.

I'm at a loss to know what to do to apply the commentary to post #4582 of the B1 so I'm splitting the paragraph in to a number of sentences which you can apply as you see fit! I've also sent Adrian a PM to see if he can suggest what might be the problem. The only difficulty there is that I can't even attach the relevant paragraph to the PM! Anyway, breaking the commentary down here goes:

Named B1 61004 Oryx again at Witham North of the Bridge on an up fast goods on 14th March 1959. Home at the time was Parkeston Quay where it had been allocated in February 1959. It then moved to March in December 1959, Sheffield Darnall in January1960, Mexborough in October and Canklow in December 1962 where it was withdrawn in December 1964 according to the SLS, or December 1963 re-WHTS.

 

[oldravendale]

OK. So that part worked. I'll now try the next sentence. There is clearly an issue with this second part of the message:

BR Database suggest it went in to Darlington Works on 21st March 1964 (23rd January 1964 according to Yeadons) for disposal. WHTS comes to the rescue confirming the withdrawal date.

 

[oldravendale]

So the issue appears to be in the penultimate sentence which I'll try to attach here:

Clearly a slip of the BR Database finger.

 

[oldravendale]

The issue is, believe it or not, in that sentence and as I originally wrote it after Database in brackets otherwise amazingly reliable finger. So rebuild the paragraph if you can and explain why I can't send it all in one go.

BTW, the final sentence reads:
It was seen in the stripping shop in Darlington on 25th January 1964 (RO) and cut up in March 1964. (BR database).

 

[oldravendale]

For completeness here's the entire paragraph leaving out the offensive item which was only to say that I've found BR Database a pretty good source, on the whole:

Named B1 61004 Oryx again at Witham North of the Bridge on an up fast goods on 14th March 1959. Home at the time was Parkeston Quay where it had been allocated in February 1959. It then moved to March in December 1959, Sheffield Darnall in January1960, Mexborough in October and Canklow in December 1962 where it was withdrawn in December 1964 according to the SLS, or December 1963 re-WHTS. BR Database suggest it went in to Darlington Works on 21st March 1964 (23rd January 1964 according to Yeadons) for disposal. WHTS comes to the rescue confirming the withdrawal date. Clearly a slip of the BR Database finger. It was seen in the stripping shop in Darlington on 25th January 1964 (RO) and cut up in March 1964. (BR database).

I'll add this paragraph to the photo by way of an edit.

 

[oldravendale]

I've spent the last couple of afternoons reviewing some of Tim's 8mm movies ready for a show of his and mine that I'll be presenting for the GCR Leicestershire Area Group in a pub at Quorn (good vibes there!) in March. The last time these were seen was in the very early '70s when the Southern Area of the Main Line Preservation Group, as it was then, ran a monthly film show at the Abbey Community Centre, Westminster through the winter as a part of a much wider publicity machine. What gems! North East steam in the mid 1960s, Cricklewood, Willesden and Southall Sheds, Staveley Iron Works, Waterloo, the Bowaters Paper Railway, Steam at Southampton and Eastleigh, including a steam hauled Pines Express skidding it's way out of Southampton Central and Bushey Troughs. There's also three years of the Steam on the Met not to mention the very first train on the now preserved GCR. Regrettably the continuity girl seems to have gone on holiday for most of them and sometimes the exposure is less Freddie Francis and more Buster Keaton. However the list is considerable and the items listed above incomplete. I should really get all these digitised.

I don't have any means of getting these on to WT and don't want them on one of the wider platforms so they'll stay with me, at least for now.

Just thought you'd like to know.

Brian

 

[timbowales]

Brian, you're doing a wonderful job coserving all Tim's stuff. Long may you prosper.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
Re 61004 Oryx, my copy of Yeadon has a withdrawal date of 28/12/63 and into Darlington for cutting 21/3/64. May I respectfully suggest you have misread that date as 23/1/64.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for describing the conflicting info about 61004, Martin @Martin Shaw. I've checked everything I wrote and it's my references which have made the transposition of numbers. Without original documents it is, of course, always difficult to go back to source - in fact I don't have access to all the original sources - and to do so would take hours for each individual photo so I rely on BR Database/SLS and WHTS which may refer to any number of sources. In this case WHTS refers to Yeadons Vol 6 as the source of the report of the loco going in to Darlington on 23rd January 1964. This is a transposition of numbers by WHTS which in ignorance I've perpetuated. BR Database gives the correct date as reported in my commentary. The SLS references in BR Database, usually pretty reliable, reports the loco being withdrawn in December 1964 and as recorded in the commentary that was challenged by the BR Database record - clearly something was wrong with the date somewhere as we know the loco went in to Darlington in early 1964 and was cut up in the March so it could not have been withdrawn as late as December.

Hope all that makes sense... I'll correct the commentary with an edit. This in no way excuses my use of incorrect information but helps to explain, I hope, how such errors creep in. You'll be aware, of course, that I state my sources.

A2/3 60514 Chamossaire on the up West Riding at Wood Green on 27th March 1959. This was previously in posts #2539 and #2946. It had been on the New England allocation since 1948 and was withdrawn from there in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in June 1963. (Rail UK).



A3 60059 Tracery at Wood Green with a down express on 27th March 1959. This loco has previously been seen in posts #2554 and #2671. 60059 had been a GC engine and allocated to Leicester since March 1951. It moved to Kings Cross in April 1957 and left Doncaster Works in September 1961 with smoke deflectors and was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in the same month at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).



WD 2-8-0 90151 at Wood Green on a down freight on 27th March 1959. This was a New England engine from March 1947 and was withdrawn in May 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in July 1963. (BR Database).



Another at Wood Green was N2 0-6-2T 69581 on a Kings Cross to Hatfield local train on 27th March 1959. The loco was based at Kings Cross from at least January 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in December 1960. (SLS). It was seen at the Doncaster Works Scrap Road on 19th December 1960. (SLS).



J50/1 68891 hauling the empty stock of a Fred Olsen Line special at Wood Green on 27th March 1959. The J50 was a Hornsey engine from October 1952 being withdrawn in July 1961 although there is a suggestion that it was reallocated to Kings Cross a week or so later. (SLS). The Railway Observer confirms a withdrawal date of July 1961 and Yeadons advises it went to Doncaster Works for disposal.



Brian

 

[Lyndhurstman]

I agree about the 9F photo, Tony @Osgood. A modellers picture for sure and, I suspect, another "grabbed" and unplanned.

Thanks for the geography info, Dave @Yorkshire Dave. That's very helpful in defining the precise location of that and other similar photos on the day. Also regarding the coping stones Tony @76043 which I'd failed to notice. But I suspect Tim @timbowales may be right and it'd be better to assume they were actually all there.

A very satisfying picture of B1 61329 at Witham described as North of the Bridge on 14th March 1959. It was a Stratford engine from May 1953, went to March in October and then Doncaster about three weeks later in 1962 and withdrawal in April 1966. (SLS). It was sold in May 1966 to Cohen’s at Kettering and BR Database advise that it was scrapped in the same month.

View attachment 232407

Brian

Hello

Me and my wagon fixation again.... Moses. the tablets, please..

That second wagon in from the left; painted metalwork and bare wood? I'm not sure. But another one for the collective calumny that is Watkins Wharf to "have a go" at.

Cheers

Jan

 

[Dave Holt]

Brian.
Looking at the WD and N2 photos, they look to be taken from the same location, so they must both be either up or down direction. Assuming it's down, then the N2 must be on a Kings X to Hatfield service, rather than the other way round?
Dave.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Looking at the WD and N2 photos, they look to be taken from the same location, so they must both be either up or down direction. Assuming it's down, then the N2 must be on a Kings X to Hatfield service, rather than the other way round?

It will be a KX-Hatfield service as the bridge, from right to left, carries the line from Wood Green to the Hertford Loop.

This annotated NLS 1:1,250/1:2,500 OS 1944-1974 series shows the location. The photo directions are the blue arrows from the footpath and Wood Green station is at the bottom of the map.

 

[oldravendale]

Jan @Lyndhurstman - I'd never have recognised anything unusual about that wagon in a month of Sundays so I'm delighted that this thread continues to provide prototype inspiration.

Dave @Dave Holt and Dave @Yorkshire Dave - yep. You've corrected the error which I'd failed to pick up. Another commentary to be corrected by way of an Edit, when I do my house keeping and info clearing up. I have to be in the right mood (and have a couple of hours to spare) to work the additional info in to the commentaries and to store everything on the individual photo files.

An unidentified L1 2-6-4T at Wood Green on an up outer suburban train on 27th March 1959.



Class A2/2 60506 Wolf of Badenoch at Wood Green on 27th March 1959. The A2 had been allocated to New England since November 1949 and was withdrawn in April 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works (BR Database) and reportedly cut up in the month of withdrawal. (WHTS).



A B1, 61363 at Witham on a Clacton to Liverpool Street stopping service on 28th March 1959. The loco was allocated to Colchester in January 1957, then March in December 1959, Cambridge January 1960 and Stratford in June 1962 where it was withdrawn three months later. (SLS). It was sold in June 1963 to Central Wagon Co, Ince, Wigan where it was scrapped in January 1964. (BR Database).



In the first photo K3 2-6-0 61942 was at Witham on a down goods on 28th March 1959. At the time it was allocated to Parkeston Quay where it arrived in March 1958. It moved to March in July 1960 where it was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was at Central Wagon, Ince, Wigan by 2nd July 1963 (RO) and was scrapped by the year end. (BR Database).

In the second photo Britannia 70039 Sir Christopher Wren approaches on the up Hook Continental with the K3 still in shot. Seen previously in posts #2017 and #4126 the loco lived at Norwich Thorpe from February 1959, Immingham from December 1960 and in December 1963 went to Carlisle Upperby on loan ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in March 1964 where it was withdrawn in September 1967. (SLS). It then went to J Mc Williams at Shettleston where it was scrapped by the end of January 1968. (BR Database).





Brian

 

[AJC]

Nice shots of Witham - presumably a minute or so apart? - can the goods and the Brit' both be on down workings? They are travelling in opposite directions... The wagon behind the K3 is a German (I think?) ferry van which implies origin or destination as Harwich. I'd love to be clearer on that, but I've only ever seen Witham at high speed through a train window.

Adam

EDIT - Assuming I've read this right and that up and down can't be bidirectional (per Exeter St Davids and Plymouth), then the Brit' is on a down working - did the Hook Continental actually have an up working? - and the K3 an up, ex-Harwich.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Adam/Brian
"The Hook Continental" had both an up and down working as did its balancing service "The Day Continental", however you've got the orientation of Witham 180 deg out. The K3 is facing in the Harwich direction where it probably is bound, and is a down train, the Britannia is on an up service. I presume the goods is awaiting a line clear from Kelvedon signal box or some other out of course reason has intervened.
Martin

 

[AJC]

Adam/Brian
"The Hook Continental" had both an up and down working as did its balancing service "The Day Continental", however you've got the orientation of Witham 180 deg out. The K3 is facing in the Harwich direction where it probably is bound, and is a down train, the Britannia is on an up service. I presume the goods is awaiting a line clear from Kelvedon signal box or some other out of course reason has intervened.
Martin

Thanks Martin - I was trying to use the captions of the other Witham pictures up thread as a reference so clearly something's awry more generally with my understanding or the other captions (but as a former resident of Norwich, this was a bit of line I generally only saw at speed 40 odd years later, a different world).

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The wagon behind the K3 is a German (I think?) ferry van which implies origin or destination as Harwich.

It's a DB Gmbhs 51 fährbootwagen.

Most of the UK-Continental rail freight traffic went via Harwich-Zeebrugge rather than Dover-Dunkerque.