Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

Arun Sharma

Western Thunderer
Arun
Iis not Shrewsbury, the buildings are wrong for there. The GW was responsible for the signals and the signal gantry above the train is pure LNW as is the partially hidden signal box in the background. It also looks as though there is at least one bi directional platform road. 45003 was a western division engine since 1935 so somwhere on that division, the lack of signs of resignalling or electrification may narrow things a bit.

I have some slight variation in the locomotives later allocation dates,
Rugby 5/6/43, Willesden 31/10/53, Crewe N 14/4/56, Crewe S 20/10/56, Crewe N 5/1/57, Crewe S 23/11/57, Stoke 20/6/59, Crewe N 12/9/59,
Stoke 10/6/61, Wdn w.e. 27/5/67.

Martin
Thank you
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Black 5 45003 at an unidentified location probably in September 1958. It was allocated to Crewe South in November 1957 and stayed there until July 1959 when it moved to Stoke and back to Crewe South in September the same year although it ended up at Stoke in July 1961 where it was withdrawn in May 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen’s, Kettering, in February 1968. (BR Database).

img3588 TM Neg Strip 6 45003 copyright Final.jpg

Longsight, Manchester. Longsight engine and carriage sheds are behind the signal box. It's on the four track section from Man Piccadilly (London Road) to Stockport (Edgerley (Stockport)).
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
I think there's some confusion around the locomotive sheds in the Manchester area and only one - 42647 - was taken at Agecroft as the the tops of the water columns match.
For the remainder the geography doesn't quite fit, however the locomotives are all recorded as being allocated to Newton Heath and in the case of 44686, Longsight.

Aspinall 3F Class 11 52278 at Agecroft in September 1958. It was allocated to Newton Heath in December 1956 and withdrawn from there in July 1959. It then went to Horwich Works (WHTS) where it was scrapped a month or so later. (BR Database).

img3582 TM Neg Strip 6 52278 Agecroft Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

Another Aspinall 3F Class 11, 52161, at Agecroft in September 1958. This was allocated to Newton Heath in April 1958 but went immediately on loan to Stockport where it was withdrawn in October 1960. (SLS). It was scrapped at Horwich Works (WHTS) later the same month.

img3583 TM Neg Strip 6 52161 Agecroft Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

Barton Wright Class 23 0-6-0ST 51458 at Agecroft in September 1958 which was (as I read the history) a Class 25 0-6-0 until converted to a saddle tank. Shed Bash on 14th June 1959 records it as present at Agecroft although withdrawn at the time and carrying a Newton Heath shed plate. Agecroft 1936 - 1966 According to the SLS the loco was allocated to Newton Heath from December 1949 and was withdrawn – whether from there or Agecroft is uncertain – in May1959. It went to Central Wagon Works, Ince, Wigan for disposal (RO) although I can find no reference of a date when the deed was complete.

img3584 TM Neg Strip 6 51458 Agecroft Sept 58 see Shed Bash in 1959 for Agecroft - loco record...jpg

I read this as Fowler 7F 0-8-0 49667 which from the allocation seems likely. Here it’s at Agecroft in September 1958. It’s another recorded on 14th June 1959 at Agecroft as withdrawn on Agecroft 1936 - 1966 although being allocated to Newton Heath. It was on the Newton Heath allocation from November 1953 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in May 1959. (SLS). It was scrapped at Central Wagon, Ince, Wigan (RO) in September 1961. (BR Database).

img3585 TM Neg Strip 6 poss 49667 Agecroft Sept 58 copyright Final NEW.jpg

This is Fowler 7F 0-8-0 49511 at Agecroft in September 1958 although allocated to Newton Heath from December 1955. It’s recorded as having been seen withdrawn at Agecroft on 14th June 1959 – see Agecroft 1936 - 1966. Newton Heath was it’s final shed, having been withdrawn in May 1959 after a period in storage from August 1958. (SLS). It was scrapped at Central Wagon, Ince, Wigan (RO) in September 1961. (BR Database).

img3586 TM Neg Strip 6 49511 Agecroft Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

These five are at Newton Heath as the shed roof profile matches. Although Manchester Patricroft and Stockport Edgerley have similar roof profiles.
As shown in the earlier link above, Agecroft shed roof profile is quite different.

In the first of the last two of the Fowler 0-8-0s the large building on the right was a hostel on Warden Lane - since demolished.


Caprotti Black 5 44686 at Agecroft in September 1958. It was new to Longsight in April 1951 (BR Database) then Monument Lane April 1960, Llandudno Junction May 1960 and Southport in October 1963 where it was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). It then went to Wards, Beighton, Sheffield (RO) where it was seen on 30th January and 8th February 1966 (WHTS) and scrapped in September 1967. (BR Database).

img3587 TM Neg Strip 6 44686 Agecroft Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

This one is at Longsight as the roof ladder/walkway hand rail matches that of the south shed modernised in 1957 for dieselisation - you have to scroll down a bit. History of Longsight Station and Railway Depot
 
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oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thank you for all the efforts to locate the Black 5, Arun, @40057 and Dave @Yorkshire Dave and it looks as though Dave has it! Then there's all the info about Agecroft vs Longsight. Your evidence is pretty compelling, Dave, and I think my easiest way through the quagmire is to edit my commentary and the brief descriptions applied to the photos on file. I'll think about that... It's actually probably easier than keeping a separate file with your details, but then again your references are valuable as is the reference to the hostel.

I'm so grateful to have your advice on all these photos without which history would have to be rewritten, although in fairness none of this sequence of photos is likely to find its way into publication.

There’s very little to go on as far as this photo is concerned. The only info I have is that it’s Gorton Shed in September 1958 but I suspect it might be the Works. Although I’m far from a specialist in such matters I suspect this is a row of withdrawn GCR 9K and/or 9L 4-4-2T locos, LNER C13 or C14. It’s the first photo I’ve seen of locos with a white cross panted on the side - indication, I assume, that they are withdrawn. Maybe GCR custom and practice I guess.

img3589 TM Neg Strip 6 Gorton Shed Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

Class 04/3 rebuilt to 01 63780 at Gorton Shed in September 1958. It was allocated to March in February 1957 and withdrawn in July 1963 (SLS) arriving at Doncaster on 13th August 1963 to be scrapped. (BR Database). It was in Gorton from June to August 1958 for a General Overhaul and boiler change so, judging by the general cleanliness this photo is probably of the loco soon after release from the works.

img3590 TM Neg Strip 6 63780 Gorton Shed Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

Built as an 04/3 2-8-0 but became an 04/8 by the time of the photo is 63631 at Gorton Shed in September 1958. It was allocated to Gorton in February 1958 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It went in to Gorton Works for cutting up in November 1962. (BR Database).

img3591 TM Neg Strip 6 63631 Gorton Shed Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

Two photos of 04 2-8-0 63705 at Gorton Shed in September 1958. The loco was allocated to Staveley in February 1952 and was withdrawn in April 1963. (SLS). It looks pretty clean for a 2-8-0 and the SLS record tells us that it was in Gorton Works for conversion to an 04/8 between early June and early August 1958 which fits in nicely with a photograph in September which itself suggests it’s fresh out of works. It went in to Doncaster Works for cutting up on 2nd December 1962. (BR Database).

img3592 TM Neg Strip 6 63705 Gorton Shed Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

img3593 TM Neg Strip 6 63705 Gorton Shed Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
I have found another pic of Longsight that shows rather more readily the four tracks through the station, what I thought to be three tracks in Tim's photo was a mistake, the up slow is almost lost in the gloom behind the loco. The four visible dolls on the gantry apply to the down fast, the signals for the down slow are hidden by the platform canopy. The signal box was Longsight station and there was no reversible road and I have amended my earlier post.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
The main Gorton loco shed was next to the ex-GCR Gorton Works (also known as Gorton Tank).

This annotated NLS OS 1:1,250/1:2,500 1944-1973 series shows the relationship between the two locomotive sheds, Gorton GCR works and the Beyer Peacock Foundry/Works.

For a useless fact - during this small piece of research I found out that Richard Peacock was chief engineer for the MS&L (later GCR) at their Gorton Locomotives Works. He resigned in 1854 to become one of the founders of Beyer Peacock with Charles Beyer.

Gorton.jpg
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks, Martin @Martin Shaw and Dave @Yorkshire Dave for "further and better particulars". Also for your pub quiz detail about Messrs Beyer and Peacock, Dave.

A rather less than stellar set of photos today - the A5 is way under exposed and the King Arthur and West Country suffer from the view finder issue we've seen previously. Nevertheless these are included as these rather crappy pictures seem to create more reaction than the others. The one of the E6 is rather nice though...

A5 4-6-2T 69813 at Gorton Shed in September 1958. The loco was allocated to Gorton in February 1958 and was withdrawn in March 1960. (SLS). It was scrapped the following May at Darlington Works. (BR Database).

img3594 TM Neg Strip 6 69813 Gorton Shed Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

Judging by the lack of a shed plate the E6 32418 here at London Bridge on 5th September 1958 on a Parcels train is stateless! A couple of years later it was quite normal to see steam locos with no allocation but in 1958 that was a bit of a rarity. However, 32418 was allocated to Bricklayers Arms in April 1958, moved to Brighton in May 1961 and withdrawal in December 1962. (SLS). It was seen along with other withdrawn locos at Hove Goods Yard on 29th December 1962 (SLS) and was recorded there from December 1962 until May 1963 (WHTS) and was cut up at Eastleigh Works week ending 6th July 1963. (RO).

img3596 TM Neg Strip 6 32418 London Bridge Parcels 5 Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

King Arthur itself, 30453, light engine at Clapham Junction on 6th September 1958. Note the small “D” on the diesel shunter D3465 closer to the camera. King Arthur was at Salisbury from at least 1948 (BR Database) and was clearly stored from time to time as the reinstatements are recorded in the SLS allocations which show the loco to have been withdrawn in July 1961. It went to Eastleigh Works for disposal (RO) which was completed in October 1961. (BR Database).

The diesel shunter was built at Darlington and went to Hither Green when new in July 1957. (SLS). It became 08380 in December 1973. (BR Database). After Hither Green allocations were Norwood Junction in October 1957, back to Hither Green in May 1962, Faversham in June and Hither Green yet again in December 1963 and finally Ashford in July 1967 where it was withdrawn in August 1982. (SLS). It was cut up at Swindon Works on 21st May 1983. (BR Database).

img3598 TM Neg Strip 6 30453 Clapham Jnctn local to Basingstoke 6 Sept 58 Note small D on 08 c...jpg

Seen previously in post #3672 is Rebuilt West Country 34093 Saunton at Clapham Junction on a Waterloo to Exeter train on 6th September 1958. 34020 was allocated to Nine Elms in June 1958 and moved to Eastleigh in September 1964. It was withdrawn in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in March 1968. (BR Database).

img3599 TM Neg Strip 6 34093 Clapham Jnctn Waterloo to Exeter 6 Sept 58 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 
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Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
I fear some geographical confusion has crept in "sarf of the river",
However, 32418 was allocated to Bricklayers Lane in April 1958
Errmm, Bricklayers Arms, although what use they had for these antique throwbacks from Brighton is open to question given the general superiority of the Ashford produced machines.
 

timbowales

Western Thunderer
Once again with Tim's photos, it is the stuff behind the loco that raises a question in this viewer's mind.
Is that a Stove R behind the E6 at London Bridge?
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
I fear some geographical confusion has crept in "sarf of the river",

Errmm, Bricklayers Arms, although what use they had for these antique throwbacks from Brighton is open to question given the general superiority of the Ashford produced machines.
I simply can't account for that! The fingers were clearly not doing what passes for a brain told them. Mind you I wrote that after a couple of double scotches which may be the total explanation. Thank you for picking it up - now corrected by way of an edit.

Once again with Tim's photos, it is the stuff behind the loco that raises a question in this viewer's mind.
Is that a Stove R behind the E6 at London Bridge?
I couldn't possibly comment, Tim - because I simply don't know.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
A rather less than stellar set of photos today - the A5 is way under exposed and the King Arthur and West Country suffer from the view finder issue we've seen previously. Nevertheless these are included as these rather crappy pictures seem to create more reaction than the others. The one of the E6 is rather nice though...

Although not publication quality the 'crappy' images are worth publishing here as quite often it's the backgrounds which are interesting as they may capture something unusual, or not often seen and/or buildings, skylines and scenes extant prior to the 1960s brutalist redevelopments.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Errmm, Bricklayers Arms, although what use they had for these antique throwbacks from Brighton is open to question given the general superiority of the Ashford produced machines.

Ashford machines may be generally superior, however I've read that shunting crews preferred the Brighton machines as their air braking was sharper and more responsive than vacuum brakes.
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Ashford machines may be generally superior, however I've read that shunting crews preferred the Brighton machines as their air braking was sharper and more responsive than vacuum brakes.
At a basic technical level I certainly wouldn't disagree with you however there are a number of conflicting issues. Firstly on a Westinghouse fitted loco by the time the driver has reduced the train pipe pressure and the triple valve has operated the response time isn't much quicker than a vacuum braked light loco. I know in preservation Fenchurch was made into a straight air brake version which improved things stopping wise, whether the SR or BR did this I don't know. I believe after the SR made vacuum the standard the only use of air brakes for steam working was by the IoW, and those locos fitted for P&P working where even then the braking was by vacuum. The SR had very little loose shunting of unfitted wagons so there was concommitantly little need for them, in many ways I'm somewhat surprised that so many Brighton radials lasted as long as they did, Ashford rules.:cool:
 

76043

Western Thunderer
Certainly in a couple of GE memoirs I've read, they seemed to rate the Westinghouse for the smart timing on the suburban services. I've no idea if this is relative to the SR version.

The van behind the E6 looks like an LMS all steel 50' full brake, @LarryG would be able to confirm or deny.

The 08 shunter has the style of lettering between the black 13xxx numbering and the later style of D series lettering, which makes it an early green loco.
Tony
 
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Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
I would imagine that the pattern of equipment supplied by Westinghouse to both the GER and LBSCR would be to all intents and purposes the same. It was of course the royalty payments to Westinghouse that deterred more railways for using it in preferrence to the vacuum brake, both simple and automatic. A staggeringly short sighted decision that we have only managed to rid ourselves of in the last twenty years or so. Make no mistake the air brake is far superior to the vacuum for train running both in application and release, the greater pressure differentials ensure that, but just not for shunting where frankly a steam brake would be the best option. Once the cylinder is warmed up it's almost instantaneous and if it has a graduable control valve as opposed to an on/off tap is very flexible in operation.
Martin
 

John Palmer

Active Member
Once again with Tim's photos, it is the stuff behind the loco that raises a question in this viewer's mind.
Is that a Stove R behind the E6 at London Bridge?
We can be confident that this is a LMS bogie full brake rather than a Stove R by reason of the presence of eight torpedo venys on the roof; the Stove Rs sported only six. The vehicle dates from the Stanier period and before fitting of beadings strips above and below the windows was discontinued. Wouldn 't want to hazard a guess at a more exact construction date.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
(I quite like Brighton's 0-6-2Ts, old-fashioned though they no doubt were)

although what use they had for these antique throwbacks from Brighton is open to question given the general superiority of the Ashford produced machines.

Sitting here thinking about it, most (but not quite all) of the British Railways inherited small engine fleets were antiquated Victorian or Edwardian designs.
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
Sitting here thinking about it, most (but not quite all) of the British Railways inherited small engine fleets were antiquated Victorian or Edwardian designs.

Yup. Something only the LMS were really serious about tackling (hence the small Ivatts). The Southern, while still running quite a few, had electrified a lot of them out of existence, I suppose, and saw off most of the rest with the Kent Coast scheme.

Adam
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for yours again, Dave @Yorkshire Dave . I'll continue to post the less good images as they seem to create interest and discussion. Thanks too for your further comments about vacuum vs air brakes and the contributions to the discussion by Martin @Martin Shaw , Tony @76043 and Adam @AJC . Then the "is it or is it not a Stove R" - thanks here to Tim @timbowales , Tony @76043 again (together with the additional info about the diesel shunter) and John @John Palmer .

King Arthur 30449 Sir Torre at Clapham Junction on a train from Waterloo to Southampton on 6th September 1958. It was at Salisbury from January 1948 and probably previously too (BR Database) and remained at Salisbury thereafter, going in and out of store and reinstatement until withdrawn in December 1959. (SLS). It then went to Eastleigh Works where it was cut up week ending 2nd January 1960. (RO).

img3600 TM Neg Strip 6 30449 Clapham Jnctn Waterloo to Southamptonr 6 Sept 58 Final.jpg

Seen previously in post #3513 is S15 30839 which features in both the following photos at Clapham Junction on 6th September 1958. It was a Feltham engine from 1939 and was withdrawn in September 1965. (BR Database). WHTS advise it then went to Bird’s at Risca and BR Database confirms scrapping in May 1966. In the first photo the original West Country behind the S15 is 34102 Lapford which was on the Bournemouth allocation in February 1958, moved to Eastleigh in September 1964 and was withdrawn in July 1967 and was then seen at Salisbury MPD in the company of other withdrawn SR locos on 12th August 1967. (SLS). After Salisbury it went to Buttigieg’s at Newport where it was observed being cut up on 31st August 1968 with the job reportedly complete by 25th September 1968 (RO) although BR Database reports a scrapping date of May 1968.

In the second photo M7 30245 is travelling towards the camera and is probably on empty stock. This was a Nine Elms engine from February 1954 and was withdrawn in November 1962. In October 1964 it was seen at Stratford Works in the Old Erecting Shop alongside LYR1008, 30245/587, 850, 925, 33001, 70000 (not 71000 as shown by SLS), 63460 and 63601. There’s a note that the GWR locos were still at Swindon. (All SLS). It escaped the cutter’s torch and was preserved for the National Collection. See here for details: 30245 (LSWR 245, SR E245, SR 245 & BR 30245)

img3601 TM Neg Strip 6 30839 & 34102 Clapham Jnctn coupled light 6 Sept 58 Final NEW.jpg

img3602 TM Neg Strip 6 30839 Clapham Jnctn coupled light 6 Sept 58 Final.jpg

Another regrettably "droopy viewfinder" shot. J19 0-6-0 64652 at Witham on 19th September 1958. This was a Colchester engine in November 1957 and was still there in May 1958 (Contemporary Locoshed Books) and was a Parkeston Quay engine from February 1959 (SLS). The December 1959 Locoshed Book advises it was still allocated there and the SLS show it as having moved to Stratford in January 1961 where it was almost immediately withdrawn. It was seen at Stratford Works on 8th August 1961. (RO).

img3603 2nd Neg TM Neg Strip 7 64652 Witham 19 Sept 58 Final NEW SCAN PREVIOUSLY UNSCANNED.jpg

The last of these postings for the year. Thanks to all those contributors who have made the presentation of these photos such a joy and such a lively site with feedback comments and (at times) friendly but justified criticisms. I still have enough photos to be continuing for a while yet so see you in 2025. Above all else a Happy, Prosperous but above all else Healthy New Year to all on WT.

Brian
 
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