Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Hall Class 4909 Blakesley Hall outside the shed at Old Oak Common on 25th March 1961. It had been allocated to Westbury since November 1957 and moved to Exeter in November 1961. (SLS). It ended up at Swindon in March 1962 where it was withdrawn in September the same year. It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, in April 1964. (BR Database).



Looking immaculate Modified Hall 6990 Witherslack Hall at Old Oak Common on 25th March 1961, previously seen in post #2243. It was allocated to Old Oak Common in December 1951 and didn't move to St Philips Marsh until November 1963. In June 1964 it went to Bristol Barrow Road where it was withdrawn in December 1965. (SLS). It is currently working on the GCR at Loughborough where it arrived by way of Woodhams, Barry. See 6990 Witherslack Hall



Castle Class 5015 Kingswear Castle in one of the roundhouses at Old Oak Common with 57XX pannier tank 8757 on 25th March 1961. The Castle was allocated to Old Oak in January 1961, moved to Cardiff East Dock in October 1962 and was withdrawn there in May 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Sheffield, in January 1964.

8757 was last in post #2541 and had been an Old Oak Common engine since 1946. It was withdrawn in September 1962 (SLS) going to A King and Sons, Norwich, where it was scrapped at the end of January 1964. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[DougT]

Mick... Here's a "warts and all" JPG enlargement from the original TIFF, so a bit underexposed and sparkly but it may show what's through the bridge to better effect. Remarkable work if you can identify the location.

View attachment 217769

The wall ought to be the give away as unless there’s been some major civils work done then it should still be there, even if the bridge has been replaced. Working on the basis that this is 4 track then it’s not south of Bushey unless anyone can make a case for there being an extra pair of lines to the right of the train which I don’t think there are.

I’ve now watched Northampton to Euston and back cab rides on the tube of you and can’t see any location that fits the bill, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t just missed it.

 

[mickoo]

Mick... Here's a "warts and all" JPG enlargement from the original TIFF, so a bit underexposed and sparkly but it may show what's through the bridge to better effect. Remarkable work if you can identify the location.

View attachment 217769

Okay that's better, I was just hoping for a closer crop of the bridge but this one shows that in the background it's actually another bridge so there are two bridges (the second looks like a larger bridge width wise) in close proximity with three OHLE headspans between, that narrows it down quite a lot. The hut is not a signal box but looks like a shed in someones garden.

 

[mickoo]

Got it, knew it was 'comfortable', I train spotted here in the evening whilst doing PO engineering training courses at Yarnfield in the 80's.

It's Norton Bridge which would have been electrified in Jul 62 and it's heading north, a lot has changed but here's an aerial of the location.



The first bridge is Smithy Lane and the second bridge is Station Road, Tims train and photo location is circled red.

Some flesh on the bones, here's a couple of street views, note low retaining wall on the RH side and how it drops down after the third gantry.



You can't see the actual drop in the photo as the gantry hides it, but following the top line of the wall shows a distinctive drop, the old concrete fence has been replaced with a modern (vast improvement) metal picket fence, it looks quite new in 2009 street views.

An interesting feature is that the civil's notched the brick retaining wall and inserted a concrete base for the OHLE portal.



Next note the gantries, there are three before the bridge in Tims view, one is very close to the bridge and has a much shorter distance to the ones either side, this is often called an intermediate portal and is frequently used when there are structures of limited clearance, essentially to stop the overhead wire bouncing or getting too close to the structure.

Looking north from Smithy Lane you can see the second bridge, but no building....



However, if you dig back in time, and courtesy of LNWR Historical Society copyright, you'll find there was a railway cottage (probably track related staff) tucked up close to the rails next to Station Road bridge.



I'll wager the building still stood in 62 if not in use or was soon to be demolished, a small part of the low wall appears to just remain today but it's hard to tell in all the undergrowth from Google street view.

Finally the track layout, the train left Euston on the down fast, between Stafford and Crewe the lines are 2+2 with the fast lines to the eastern side and not the western side much further south. In Tims view looking north from left to right you have, down slow, up slow, down fast and up fast which ties in with an express from Euston.

That's all made my day rather nicely.

 

[Dave Holt]

Excellent detective work, Mick. The railway at Norton Bridge is now completely different from steam days.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Doug - thanks for keeping on trying to identify a likely location for "that" photo but as we now know @mickoo has now identified the location. An amazing bit of work yet again, Mick, and thank you. Of course it does call in to question where Tim was going and what images we are missing but we'll have to satisfy ourselves with what we have - and there are still about 1500 black and white images to go!


41XX 2-6-2T 4128 in the shed at Swindon on 26th March 1961 looking freshly overhauled. In fact the SLS notes that this was seen in Swindon Works A Shop shortly before the photo, on 19th February 1961. It had been a Taunton engine since June 1958 and moved to Severn Tunnel Junction where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It was seen at Bird’s, Risca in August 1964 and several dates thereafter, the final sighting being in November . (WHTS). BR Database give a scrapping date of December 1964.



Three photos here of 1361 Class 0-6-0ST 1365 variously described as Stored or on the scrap line either at Swindon Shed or near Swindon Works on 26th March 1961. It was allocated to Swindon in April 1955 and the withdrawal date was November 1962 (SLS) so was clearly still in capital stock at the time of the photo. It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in September 1963. (BR Database)






.
14XX 0-4-2T 1410 stored at Swindon Shed on 26th March 1961. Note the adjacent gas tank wagon. 1410 was allocated to Swindon in July 1957 and withdrawn at the end of June 1961. (SLS). It was noted by the SLS in the Stock Shed Yard at Swindon in February 1961. The Railway Observer noted it at Wolverhampton Works on 11th June 1961 and it was cut up on 12th August 1961 (WHTS) although BR Database record the scrapping date as October 1961.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

42XX 2-8-0T 4203 on the scrap line near Swindon Works on 26th March 1961. BR Database report this as an Ebbw Junction, Newport loco since at least June 1947 where it was withdrawn in January 1961. (BR Database and SLS). Furthermore the SLS record this loco as being in Swindon’s Gas Works Sidings in February 1961 and again in May the same year, then the Works Yard in July 1961 and C Shop in September 1961. It was cut up at Swindon Works on 7th October 1961 (WHTS) although BR Database report the scrapping date as September 1961.



Three here of 2884 2-8-0 2892 on shed at Swindon on 26th March 1961. A Severn Tunnel Junction engine which had lived there since February 1959 it was withdrawn on 1st June 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Swindon Works on 10th August 1963. (BR Database and WHTS).







Some coincidences here – this is 43XX 2-6-0 6384 at Swindon 26th March 1961. It was also a Severn tunnel Junction engine, but since June 1956 and withdrawn at the end of June 1963. (SLS). BR Database gives no scrapping information but WHTS advises it was scrapped at Swindon Works also on 10th August 1963.



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Is that a cartoon of a Frenchman on the side of the tender?

 

[Vaughan45]

I thought it was possibly Dr Beeching??

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your thoughts, chaps, about the chalked "artwork"... You may both be correct but I suspect it's more likely to be some wag who is taking the mickey out of a member of the shed staff. Rather like having comments about the bosses carved in to loo doors.

1361 Class 1364 with 14XXs 1433 and 1454 at Swindon works on 26th March 1961. 1364 was allocated to Swindon in February 1960 and withdrawn a year later. (SLS). The SLS also report the loco in the Stock Shed Yard in February 1961, then the Triangle in May 1961 and finally the Dump in July 1961, all at Swindon Works. 1364 was cut up on 9th September 1961. (WHTS). BR Database agree with a September date.

1433 had been allocated to Gloucester Horton Road since February 1960 where it was withdrawn at the end of January 1961. It was then reported by the SLS as in Swindon Works Stock Shed Yard in February 1961 and then the Triangle in May 1961. Finally it was seen in the Dump in July, September and November 1961. (SLS). WHTS report it as being cut up at Swindon on 30th December 1961 – BR Database advises the month as November.

1454 had also been on Gloucester Horton Road’s allocation but since August 1959 where it was withdrawn at the end of December 1960. (SLS). It was reported at Swindon in the Stock Shed Yard in February 1961 and then in the Dump in the following May. (SLS). It was cut up at Swindon on 9th September 1961 (WHTS) – BR Database record this as happening in August.





Ex works Hall Class 6953 Leighton Hall apparently coupled to an alien tender (although probably not!) at Swindon Works on 26th March 1961. The Hall was allocated to Oxford from October 1950 where it was withdrawn in January 1966. (SLS). The SLS also report it as in Swindon Works (Works Yard) in February 1961 so probably immediately before this overhaul. It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in May 1966.



King 6029 King Edward VIII ex works at Swindon on 26th March 1961. It had belonged to Old Oak Common from July 1959 where it was withdrawn in July 1962. (SLS). The SLS report it in Swindon A shop in February 1961. It was sold for scrap to Cashmore’s, Newport in November 1962. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Dean Goods 2516 outside Swindon Works on 26th March 1961. Its last shed was Oswestry where it was withdrawn at the end of May 1956. (SLS). It was then reported by the SLS in the Works Yard in February 1961, May 1961 and July 1961 before being reported in A Shop in March 1962, presumably for restoration. See 2516



The chalk graffiti artist has been at this one too. Quite what the message means remains a mystery to me although I’ve noticed it on other photos of the loco in Swindon Works Yard. No respect, some people!



Standard Class 2 2-6-0 78008 with 42XX 2-8-0Ts 5207 and 4229 outside Swindon Works on 26th March 1961.

78008 appears to be the only one of these three to go through works. It was shedded at Worcester in July 1953, then Stafford Road in March 1962 and Oxley in November 1962 where it was withdrawn in October 1966. It spent a long time kicking around the works before it was overhauled being recorded by the SLS in the Works Yard in February 1961, then in “The Field” in May, back in the Works Yard in July, the Works Sidings in September and again in November so it looks as though they really didn’t know what to do with it! It was scrapped at Cashmore’s Great Bridge in January 1967. (BR Database).

5207 was allocated to Cardiff Canton in December 1953 where it was withdrawn at the end of January 1961. (SLS). It was reported in Swindon Works Triangle in February 1961 and then Swindon Works C Shop in May 1961. WHTS report it as scrapped at Swindon on 17th June 1961 although BR Database report this as being in May 1961.

4229 had been allocated to Ebbw Junction, Newport, in August 1960 and withdrawn from there on 22nd March 1961. The Railway Observer reports it as being in the Works Sidings/Yard on 26th March 1961 – possibly on the same trip as Tim – and WHTS that it was cut up at Swindon on 20th May 1961 although BR Database report the scrapping date as April.



Something here for a long time supporter of this thread - so here you are @Scanlon . The first of a number of photos taken in and of this train is Lord Nelson 30856 Lord St Vincent at the head of the LCGB The Solent Ltd at Waterloo on 30th April 1961. It was allocated to Eastleigh from February 1950 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it was scrapped at Eastleigh on 17th November 1962.

I’m currently scanning Tim’s slides and by coincidence have come across a set which were unidentified but turn out to be of this train. So far they don’t appear to be of great quality and will require a lot of processing but colour pictures will doubtless be of interest. It’ll be a while before they are seen on here, though.



Brian

 

[AJC]

Interesting re: 78008 - that’s certainly a Standard 2 tender parked up behind Leighton Hall.

The alternate is shown nicely here (note the unlined green finish):

https://flic.kr/p/n1jVNx

Image linked from Flickr: dated 7 January 1962, taken by F.G. Steinle.

Adam

 

[timbowales]

Even though I'm confirmed Swindon fan(atic) there's something about a Nelson that attracts me.
Tim T

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Ex works Hall Class 6953 Leighton Hall apparently coupled to an alien tender (although probably not!) at Swindon Works on 26th March 1961. The Hall was allocated to Oxford from October 1950 where it was withdrawn in January 1966. (SLS). The SLS also report it as in Swindon Works (Works Yard) in February 1961 so probably immediately before this overhaul. It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in May 1966.

Could have been temporarily coupled to minimise the number of shunting movements by the works pilot between the workshops and the yard.

 

[oldravendale]

Adam - Funnily enough I thought the same as you, particularly when I saw the amount of time 78008 had spent kicking around the works. I wonder if there was a damaged tender somewhere and that from 78008 was "borrowed" to keep a working loco running. 78008 certainly looked fine in January 1962! And I agree, Dave, that a temporary coupling of the Standard tender to the Hall is notionally a possibility but would there not be issues with footplate heights and various loco and tender parts clashing? Personally I have no idea.

I agree about the Nelsons, Tim, although I am a devoted Southern fan so that's not altogether surprising!

Four shots from The Solent Ltd between Fareham and Southampton with T9 30117 on 30th April 1961. The T9 had been allocated to Eastleigh from October 1953 and was withdrawn in July 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh week ending 5 August 1961. (RO).









30117 again on The Solent Ltd at Southampton Station on 30th April 1961.



USA 0-6-0T 30073 in Southampton Station on The Solent Limited. 30th April 1961. It was a Southampton Docks engine and had been since at least 1948 but transferred to Eastleigh in January 1967. (BR Database and SLS). It was broken up at Cashmore’s, Newport, in the following June.





Brian

 

[oldravendale]

When tidying up these files last night I found the one below which had escaped being processed and therefore finalised for display on this august organ. My apologies as this should he been within the photos at Swindon - although as you'll see a bit later there's no rhyme or reason to the order of these files! However...

1361 Class 0-6-0PT 1364 at Swindon Works Yard on 26th March 1961. It was allocated to Swindon in February 1960 and withdrawn in February 1961. (SLS). The SLS also recorded the loco in Swindon Stock Shed Yard in February, then the Triangle in May and finally the Dump in July, all in 1961. BR Database give a scrapping date of September 1961 confirmed by WHTS who give the precise date as 9th September.



Four shots from The Solent Limited hauled by USA 30073 round Southampton Docks on 30th April 1961.









E2 0-6-0T 32108 and E4 0-6-2T 32556 photographed from The Solent Limited in Southampton Docks on 30th April 1961. 32108 was allocated to Southampton Docks in January 1957 and was withdrawn in July 1961. (SLS). The Railway Observer record it as being cut up at Eastleigh with indecent haste, during week ending 8th July 1961 and BR Database agree a scrap date of July 1961.

32556 was allocated to Eastleigh and was in and out of store there finally being withdrawn in October 1961. (SLS and BR Database). It was cut up at Eastleigh Works week ending 21st October 1961 (RO) and BR Database agree a scrap date of October.



Brian

 

[simond]

Thanks for the 1361 class photos, Brian. The kit is in the stash, and maybe when I’ve finished Chris’ pannier…

 

[Kier Hardy]

Great stuff Street lamp heaven.

 

[AJC]

Nice shots of Southampton. In reverse order: the shot with the (bomb damaged, and long gone) The Sun was on the way back towards Terminus station at the bottom of the High Street opposite Town Quay. More about the Sun here: Sun Hotel, Town Quay - Sotonopedia

The other shots are as interesting because I don’t think I’ve ever seen photos from those positions before. Working upwards and again on the return leg, the picture shows the main yard serving the Western Docks - the large structure in the background is the well known ‘Solent Mills’, only demolished the other year amongst much local controversy. I’m not quite sure what could have been done with it, but the loss of such a prominent waterside landmark is unfortunate.

Anyway, the picture was taken looking north east towards the back of the mills about halfway between Southampton Central and Millbrook. The funny looking thing on the second road from the left is probably(?) an early Matisa tamper (no buffers, tarp’ round the back, flat roof:

I’m less familiar with the dock geography of the next two shots above - that area had changed utterly by the time I lived in Southampton - but it’s well mapped so I’ll come back to that later. The pair of chimneys are the Corporation’s power station and that hints that the industrial buildings might be part of Pirelli’s cable works.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

It's a pleasure, Simon. I'm very happy to search out prototype photos from this collection for anyone who wants references. I noticed in those 1361 photos that the injectors are nicely visible and the detail across the photos is really quite reasonable. Doubtless they'll not show the single aspect you'll need as confirmation of a detail, though. Such is life!

Kier - I'd not noticed the street lamps but now you mention it... As has been remarked previously much of the value in this collection to us as model makers is the peripheral "non-train" information. There are, after all, plenty of books out there with lovely pictures of trains but rarely do we have photos of the lineside actually from the train, an aspect in which Tim excelled.

Adam - Wow and thank you. I must admit that I was hopeful that some flesh could be put on the bones of the Southampton Docks photos. Your information is very welcome. These photos demonstrate just how enormous that whole area was. As for demolitions - sadly all too often local councils are responsible for doing far more damage to the architectural and environmental history of a city than the second world war bombing ever was.

More photos of and from the train to come, but not in Southampton.

By the way, @2-Bil I note you lurking here! It was good to chat at Kempton Park. These photos are getting close to right up your street.

Brian