Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you, Dave, for the treatise on the Caprotti Class 5s. That's a really concise history.
Thanks also, Michael, for that evocative memory.
A nice picture of your Princess Coronation, @Ressaldar, despite Simon's comment about the livery.
Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73013 on a down freight in Tring cutting on 28th July 1962. We saw this last in post #2040. It moved to Willesden from Chester in May 1960 thereafter moving around the region before ending up at Bolton in May 1966 where it was immediately withdrawn. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped during August the same year. (BR Database).
Princess Coronation 46236 City of Bradford on the down Lakes Express at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. This has been in posts #1493 and #2595 previously. 46236 was a Carlisle Upperby engine at the time, moving to Carlisle Kingmoor in November 1962 from where it was withdrawn in March 1964. (SLS and BR Database). It went to Crewe Works for disposal where it was scrapped by the end of April 1964. (Rail UK)
Two here of Princess 46207 Princess Arthur of Connaught in store at Willesden shed yard with nameplates removed on 25th March 1961. This has previously been in posts #1404, #1742 and #3041. It’s looking in wonderful condition. Tim photographed this loco in the same location on 24th February 1962 as in post #1742 and 18th June 1961 in post #3041 so it was sadly in store for some time. 46207 was recorded as only a few weeks out of shops by the SLS when in store at Willesden and seen on 1st April 1961 where it had been allocated on the same day. In fact it had received a heavy intermediate at Crewe over 36 days, coming out of works on 3rd December 1960 and then a light casual over 31 days coming out of works on 11th February 1961. That's about six weeks between overhaul and going in to store. We expected to see a couple of years of work out of it at least but it was reinstated at Camden in August 1961 and back to Willesden in September the same year where it was withdrawn in November. It went to Crewe Works where it was scrapped in May 1962. See post #1404 for another photo of the loco at Euston. (All BR Database and SLS).
Black 5 45027 is behind. It was resident at Willesden at the time although moved away in June 1962. Thereafter it settled nowhere for long ending up at Stockport Edgeley where it was withdrawn in early May 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Beighton, Sheffield by the end of October. (Rail UK).
Brian
Thanks also, Michael, for that evocative memory.
A nice picture of your Princess Coronation, @Ressaldar, despite Simon's comment about the livery.
Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73013 on a down freight in Tring cutting on 28th July 1962. We saw this last in post #2040. It moved to Willesden from Chester in May 1960 thereafter moving around the region before ending up at Bolton in May 1966 where it was immediately withdrawn. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped during August the same year. (BR Database).
Princess Coronation 46236 City of Bradford on the down Lakes Express at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. This has been in posts #1493 and #2595 previously. 46236 was a Carlisle Upperby engine at the time, moving to Carlisle Kingmoor in November 1962 from where it was withdrawn in March 1964. (SLS and BR Database). It went to Crewe Works for disposal where it was scrapped by the end of April 1964. (Rail UK)
Two here of Princess 46207 Princess Arthur of Connaught in store at Willesden shed yard with nameplates removed on 25th March 1961. This has previously been in posts #1404, #1742 and #3041. It’s looking in wonderful condition. Tim photographed this loco in the same location on 24th February 1962 as in post #1742 and 18th June 1961 in post #3041 so it was sadly in store for some time. 46207 was recorded as only a few weeks out of shops by the SLS when in store at Willesden and seen on 1st April 1961 where it had been allocated on the same day. In fact it had received a heavy intermediate at Crewe over 36 days, coming out of works on 3rd December 1960 and then a light casual over 31 days coming out of works on 11th February 1961. That's about six weeks between overhaul and going in to store. We expected to see a couple of years of work out of it at least but it was reinstated at Camden in August 1961 and back to Willesden in September the same year where it was withdrawn in November. It went to Crewe Works where it was scrapped in May 1962. See post #1404 for another photo of the loco at Euston. (All BR Database and SLS).
Black 5 45027 is behind. It was resident at Willesden at the time although moved away in June 1962. Thereafter it settled nowhere for long ending up at Stockport Edgeley where it was withdrawn in early May 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Beighton, Sheffield by the end of October. (Rail UK).
Brian
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you, Adam and Barry, for drawing attention to the tube wagons which would otherwise have passed un-noticed.
Jubilee Class 45672 Anson at Willesden Shed on 25th March 1961. The loco was allocated to Willesden in early March 1961 and moved to Rugby in July. It was back at Willesden in January 1964 and finally Crewe North in the following September where it was withdrawn in November. (SLS). Thereafter the Railway Observer reported it at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield and BR Database that it was scrapped in April 1965.
8F 48725 with small tender on shed at Willesden on 25th March 1961. This had been a Bescot engine since October 1951 but went to Saltley in January 1966 and Crewe South in April 1967 where it was withdrawn in the following September. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it at Buttigieg’s, Newport and BR Database that it was scrapped in February 1968.
8F 48632 coupled to Jinty 47501 and 8F 48725 at Willesden Shed on 25th March 1961. 48632 moved around a lot. It went to Willesden in May 1960, Rugby in April 1964 and Mold Junction the following July. Then to Croes Newydd in January 1966, Mold Junction in March, Chester in May and back to Croes Newydd in November – all in 1966. It was finally at Northwich in April 1967 where it was withdrawn in March 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen’s, Kettering in July 1968.
47501 has been photographed and in these pages several times previously. It was a long term resident of Willesden having been there since December 1957. 47501 was withdrawn from Willesden in September 1964 (SLS) and was scrapped at Cohens Kettering in February 1965. (BR Database).
Details of 48725 are above.
Brian
Jubilee Class 45672 Anson at Willesden Shed on 25th March 1961. The loco was allocated to Willesden in early March 1961 and moved to Rugby in July. It was back at Willesden in January 1964 and finally Crewe North in the following September where it was withdrawn in November. (SLS). Thereafter the Railway Observer reported it at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield and BR Database that it was scrapped in April 1965.
8F 48725 with small tender on shed at Willesden on 25th March 1961. This had been a Bescot engine since October 1951 but went to Saltley in January 1966 and Crewe South in April 1967 where it was withdrawn in the following September. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it at Buttigieg’s, Newport and BR Database that it was scrapped in February 1968.
8F 48632 coupled to Jinty 47501 and 8F 48725 at Willesden Shed on 25th March 1961. 48632 moved around a lot. It went to Willesden in May 1960, Rugby in April 1964 and Mold Junction the following July. Then to Croes Newydd in January 1966, Mold Junction in March, Chester in May and back to Croes Newydd in November – all in 1966. It was finally at Northwich in April 1967 where it was withdrawn in March 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen’s, Kettering in July 1968.
47501 has been photographed and in these pages several times previously. It was a long term resident of Willesden having been there since December 1957. 47501 was withdrawn from Willesden in September 1964 (SLS) and was scrapped at Cohens Kettering in February 1965. (BR Database).
Details of 48725 are above.
Brian
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
WDs were not that common at Willesden but here WD 2-8-0 90554 is on shed at Willesden on 25th March 1961. It was allocated to Colwick and had been since May 1960. It was withdrawn from Colwick in September 1962 (SLS) and went to Crewe Works where it was scrapped in November the same year. (BR Database).
Stanier 2-6-0 42974 at Willesden on 25th March 1961. It was allocated to Aston at the time and had been since July 1948. It went to Bescot in June1962, Gorton in January 1965 and Heaton Mersey in the following June where it was withdrawn in September. It was scrapped in December 1965 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield. (Railway Observer).
Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75052 and Black 5 45288 on shed at Willesden on 25th March 1961. 75052 was allocated to Willesden in January 1960, Nuneaton in February 1963, Holyhead in July1965, Machynlleth in August 1966, Croes Newydd in December the same year and Stoke in June 1967 where it was withdrawn in August. (SLS). It was scrapped at Birds, Long Marton by the end of February 1968. 45288 moved around a lot after leaving Willesden where it had been allocated since November 1960. It went to Rugby in September 1963, Crewe North in June 1964, Bescot in September the same year, Banbury in October 1965, Colwick in February 1966 and finally Heaton Mersey in May 1966 where it was withdrawn in November 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull, at the beginning of April 1968. (WHTS and BR Database).
Brian
Stanier 2-6-0 42974 at Willesden on 25th March 1961. It was allocated to Aston at the time and had been since July 1948. It went to Bescot in June1962, Gorton in January 1965 and Heaton Mersey in the following June where it was withdrawn in September. It was scrapped in December 1965 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield. (Railway Observer).
Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75052 and Black 5 45288 on shed at Willesden on 25th March 1961. 75052 was allocated to Willesden in January 1960, Nuneaton in February 1963, Holyhead in July1965, Machynlleth in August 1966, Croes Newydd in December the same year and Stoke in June 1967 where it was withdrawn in August. (SLS). It was scrapped at Birds, Long Marton by the end of February 1968. 45288 moved around a lot after leaving Willesden where it had been allocated since November 1960. It went to Rugby in September 1963, Crewe North in June 1964, Bescot in September the same year, Banbury in October 1965, Colwick in February 1966 and finally Heaton Mersey in May 1966 where it was withdrawn in November 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull, at the beginning of April 1968. (WHTS and BR Database).
Brian
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
The picture of Anson is interesting as it reminds me that it is one of the batch of Jubilees [45639-45676] named, not after warships, but after 16-19th century British admirals. This batch is followed by a batch of engines named after sea battles and then, ships captained at Trafalgar by Nelson's 'Band of Brothers'. As things turned out, idc the RN would eventually name several warships [and shore establishments] after these same admirals but the Jubilees are named after the admirals and not the warships. There is one exception to this rule and that was the renaming of 45700 in 1951 as Amethyst following the Yangste Incident. This of course allowed 45700's original name to be used on the first of 999 'Standards' just in time for the Festival of Britain. The fact that Britannia was also the figure on the crest of the LNWR whose ex-premium apprentice [one Robert Riddles] designed the Standards was of course entirely coincidental.
45672 Anson was also the first Alan Gibson kit that I built [to P4 standards] having 'copped' the engine at Willesden so the picture brings back a few memories.
45672 Anson was also the first Alan Gibson kit that I built [to P4 standards] having 'copped' the engine at Willesden so the picture brings back a few memories.
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Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
The many groups of names used on the Jubilee class did, I believe, teach many of my generation certain elements of both History and Geography. Co-incidentally, these were two of my favourite subjects at school back in the mid 1940's/early 1950's. Now I have trouble remembering details from yesterday...
.
Roger
.Roger
DougT
Western Thunderer
…and yet somehow it seems a mystery to us that we never get votes in Eurovision!
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you, Arun. I loved those names but never researched their backgrounds.
Simon - fascinating. We should, most certainly, have maintained the original names. It'd have remained a source of irritation for many years....
I agree, Roger. Although I never went down the history/geography road my enquiring mind expanded as a result, at least in part, due to the names of these locos.
Eurovision, Doug. What's that??
I'm glad I brought back some memories for you, Larry.
Crab 2-6-0 42812 on shed at Willesden on 25th March 1961. It had been allocaed to Willesden for a long time – since May 1947 in fact – and moved to Lancaster Green Ayre in March 1962, Gorton in October 1962, Stockport Edgeley in June 1965 and Birkenhead Mollington Street in November 1965 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Long Marston, where it was seen on 30th October 1966. (RO). BR Database report the scrapping date as November 1966.
An unidentified 8F alongside Rebuilt Patriot 45529 Stephenson inside Willesden long house on 25th March 1961. It was allocated to Willesden in February 1961, going to Annesley in October 1963 where it was withdrawn in February 1964. (SLS). It was observed at Crewe Works (WHTS) and was scrapped in February 1964. (BR Database).
A “tanner-oner” as I remember them on shed at Old Oak Common on 25th March 1961. The adjacency of Old Oak and Willesden made visits to both on the same day normal practice! This is 6163, seen on ehe pages several times previously and which had been an Old Oak Common engine since 1960, moved to Southall in April 1964 and was withdrawn at the beginning of October 1965. (BR Database). It then went to Birds at Risca, Newport where it was scrapped by the end of February 1966. (Rail UK).
Brian
Simon - fascinating. We should, most certainly, have maintained the original names. It'd have remained a source of irritation for many years....
I agree, Roger. Although I never went down the history/geography road my enquiring mind expanded as a result, at least in part, due to the names of these locos.
Eurovision, Doug. What's that??
I'm glad I brought back some memories for you, Larry.
Crab 2-6-0 42812 on shed at Willesden on 25th March 1961. It had been allocaed to Willesden for a long time – since May 1947 in fact – and moved to Lancaster Green Ayre in March 1962, Gorton in October 1962, Stockport Edgeley in June 1965 and Birkenhead Mollington Street in November 1965 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Long Marston, where it was seen on 30th October 1966. (RO). BR Database report the scrapping date as November 1966.
An unidentified 8F alongside Rebuilt Patriot 45529 Stephenson inside Willesden long house on 25th March 1961. It was allocated to Willesden in February 1961, going to Annesley in October 1963 where it was withdrawn in February 1964. (SLS). It was observed at Crewe Works (WHTS) and was scrapped in February 1964. (BR Database).
A “tanner-oner” as I remember them on shed at Old Oak Common on 25th March 1961. The adjacency of Old Oak and Willesden made visits to both on the same day normal practice! This is 6163, seen on ehe pages several times previously and which had been an Old Oak Common engine since 1960, moved to Southall in April 1964 and was withdrawn at the beginning of October 1965. (BR Database). It then went to Birds at Risca, Newport where it was scrapped by the end of February 1966. (Rail UK).
Brian
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
It may just be wishful thinking but it would not surprise me if enlarging the 8F number [The unknown one next to 45529] showed it to be 48603 - one of the starred 8F at Wilesden with a Fowler type tender.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Brian,
These are both niggling me, the first is not Euston but Camden heading north.
The track on the left is off Camden shed, if you look hard in the background you can see the south portals for Primrose Hill tunnel.
Clearly Tim stopped at Tring on roll 71 to take photos so this next one is a bit of a mystery.....Darling, I do wish you'd post up the photos in order on the roll, it makes sleuthing locations so much easier
This means the second one is north of Tring a long way north I'm betting, it has full OHLE with wires which had only just reached Castlethorpe/Bletchley area in 63 so it's almost certainly north of there if the date is correct, interestingly in the background there appears to be a low slung building, typical of LMS signal boxes and a long building curving to the left so it's in town somewhere and that concrete wall to the left is the sort you see in towns and it looks like a lamp post up there as well, time for a Google fly.......
The only fly in the ointment is I don't know if it's still heading north or the return trip, the sun angle suggest heading back south.....
What is interesting is the weather, these (and the two of 46111 at Camden) are the only two on Roll 71 that are wet (that I've found), all of the others are bone dry so I think this trip is separate to all the others and not part of the Tring set.
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
You may well be correct about that 8F, Arun, but the number is rather too indistinct, even on the original scan, to be certain.
Oh dear! I hate to be niggling you, Mick. (At my age I've not had a niggle in a long time). I'll try to find time to get the negatives out of storage and check the order of those two photos. Due to Tim's somewhat original cataloguing of his photos film 71 does not necessarily follow on from film 70 so there'll be a measure of guesswork in deciding whether films 70, 71 and 72 are related. And, indeed, whether the dates attributed to them are entirely accurate. Nevertheless your suggestions of locations for those two photos are appreciated and in the case of the first one confirms the comment made earlier by @1BCamden . He couldn't positively identify the photo with the OHLE in it either although was positive it had nothing to do with the approaches to Euston.
A line of locos at Old Oak Common on 25th March 1961 lead by Castle 5020 Trematon Castle. This had been an Exeter engine since June1960, moving to Cardiff Canton in October 1961 and Llanelli in July 1962 where it was withdrawn in November 1962. It was seen in Swindon C Shop on 17th March 1963 (SLS) and was scrapped on 23rd March 1963. (WHTS).
Castle 5074 Hampden on shed at Old Oak Common on 25th March 1961. This had been allocated to Landore in July 1960, then Neath in June 1961, Llanelli in July 1962 and Cardiff East Dock in October the same year where it was srored in March 1963 finally going to St Philips Marsh in November 1963 where it was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s. Great Bridge, in July 1964. (BR Database).
Castle 5066 Sir Felix Pole on shed at Old Oak Common on 25th March 1961. It had been allocated to Old Oak Common since at least 1947 and was withdrawn there in September 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It then went to Cashmore’s at Great Bridge where it was scrapped in December 1962. (BR Database).
Brian
Oh dear! I hate to be niggling you, Mick. (At my age I've not had a niggle in a long time). I'll try to find time to get the negatives out of storage and check the order of those two photos. Due to Tim's somewhat original cataloguing of his photos film 71 does not necessarily follow on from film 70 so there'll be a measure of guesswork in deciding whether films 70, 71 and 72 are related. And, indeed, whether the dates attributed to them are entirely accurate. Nevertheless your suggestions of locations for those two photos are appreciated and in the case of the first one confirms the comment made earlier by @1BCamden . He couldn't positively identify the photo with the OHLE in it either although was positive it had nothing to do with the approaches to Euston.
A line of locos at Old Oak Common on 25th March 1961 lead by Castle 5020 Trematon Castle. This had been an Exeter engine since June1960, moving to Cardiff Canton in October 1961 and Llanelli in July 1962 where it was withdrawn in November 1962. It was seen in Swindon C Shop on 17th March 1963 (SLS) and was scrapped on 23rd March 1963. (WHTS).
Castle 5074 Hampden on shed at Old Oak Common on 25th March 1961. This had been allocated to Landore in July 1960, then Neath in June 1961, Llanelli in July 1962 and Cardiff East Dock in October the same year where it was srored in March 1963 finally going to St Philips Marsh in November 1963 where it was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s. Great Bridge, in July 1964. (BR Database).
Castle 5066 Sir Felix Pole on shed at Old Oak Common on 25th March 1961. It had been allocated to Old Oak Common since at least 1947 and was withdrawn there in September 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It then went to Cashmore’s at Great Bridge where it was scrapped in December 1962. (BR Database).
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
@mickoo - I couldn't stop myself investigating those two photos further, so here's the story in Tim's order of things. Film 70 is the one with photos at Tring and Tring Cutting dated 28th July 1962 which have already been on WT. Film 71 carries the same date and starts with neg 3A and the two frames in question are the last two in the folder, negs 13A and 14A, both identified as "View from Train Nearing Euston". 14A is the last frame and I have no idea what may have happened to frames 15A and beyond. (Negs 11A and 12A are of 46111 at Camden). There is no Film 72 which I can only assume is lost, and Film 73 is dated 25th August 1962 with pictures of Kings Cross, Haringay West and Hornsey.
Regrettably none of this is hugely helpful but the gap in the listings between film 71 and 73 suggests that these could have been taken on another trip so neg 14A may have nothing at all to do with the Tring/Camden photos.
Yours sincerely. Utterly confused of Buckland.
Regrettably none of this is hugely helpful but the gap in the listings between film 71 and 73 suggests that these could have been taken on another trip so neg 14A may have nothing at all to do with the Tring/Camden photos.
Yours sincerely. Utterly confused of Buckland.
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DougT
Western Thunderer
Hard to be 100% sure but it looks like both photos taken from the same door of the same train. That being the case, and assuming that this is heading south, then arguably the shot with the converging line from Camden shed should be the later of the two taken as I can’t think of anywhere south of Camden that looks remotely like the shot with the concrete fence to the left…which to my mind is taken with the train on the Up Fast…and therefore should be the first of the two shots taken not as appears to be the case the second.
Which way around are the shots on the negative?
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Yes, Doug, this gets more and more confusing. The first of the two we know is Camden going North (not South) and the second, unknown location is the next frame on the film... The best I can surmise, as I suggested to @mickoo, is that these frames precede another trip further north than Tring. That all assumes, of course, that Tim's date for the photos is correct.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
I didn't see 1BCamdens comments, apologies, but the first shot is definitely Camden, or more accurately Primrose Hill heading north.
The date of Jul 62 is reasonable, wires didn't go up around Euston until around 65 although infrastructure work started earlier.
Wires up is one of the last stages before services start and electric trains started working south with change overs as the OHLE progressed, Stafford, Rugby, Nuneaton were all change over points during the project.
Over the years I've collected a lot of photos of this period (60-66) from Crewe to Euston as this period I find most interesting with the mix of steam, diesel and electric, I'm trying to find how far south the wires were up in Jul 62 and it's not that far south of Stafford.
Having said that, if we ignore the date and assume it's sometime in the 60's, I still cannot fathom where the second photo is, the track is on might help as part of the WCML is 1+2+1 (slow, fast, fast, slow) but most is 2+2 (slow, slow, fast fast) with the fast lines being to the west side south of Stafford/Trent valley and east side north of Stafford.
What's really annoying is the second shot feels very 'comfortable' which generally means I know where it is and have been here, the ground level signal box (I'm sure that's what it is now) tends to suggest a junction and it does look like there might be a line merging from the right hand side.
A slightly larger close up of whats behind the bridge might help as there's some sort of structure there.
I will find it, there are only so many places with 4 tracks, a 90° span bridge on a rising grade with left hand curve.
The date of Jul 62 is reasonable, wires didn't go up around Euston until around 65 although infrastructure work started earlier.
Wires up is one of the last stages before services start and electric trains started working south with change overs as the OHLE progressed, Stafford, Rugby, Nuneaton were all change over points during the project.
Over the years I've collected a lot of photos of this period (60-66) from Crewe to Euston as this period I find most interesting with the mix of steam, diesel and electric, I'm trying to find how far south the wires were up in Jul 62 and it's not that far south of Stafford.
Having said that, if we ignore the date and assume it's sometime in the 60's, I still cannot fathom where the second photo is, the track is on might help as part of the WCML is 1+2+1 (slow, fast, fast, slow) but most is 2+2 (slow, slow, fast fast) with the fast lines being to the west side south of Stafford/Trent valley and east side north of Stafford.
What's really annoying is the second shot feels very 'comfortable' which generally means I know where it is and have been here, the ground level signal box (I'm sure that's what it is now) tends to suggest a junction and it does look like there might be a line merging from the right hand side.
A slightly larger close up of whats behind the bridge might help as there's some sort of structure there.
I will find it, there are only so many places with 4 tracks, a 90° span bridge on a rising grade with left hand curve.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Mick... Here's a "warts and all" JPG enlargement from the original TIFF, so a bit underexposed and sparkly but it may show what's through the bridge to better effect. Remarkable work if you can identify the location.
