Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

To elucidate on the headcodes. As stated above it is for:

Waterloo or Nine Elms and Plymouth
Feltham to Salisbury via Chertsey

The loco could have come off or is being prepared for either of these two workings starting or terminating at Salisbury as @AJC has indicated.

I would suspect a Salisbury starting or terminating service as I do not recall reading about locomotives being changed en-route on the Southern with the same regularity as the London Midland or Eastern Regions. Southern trains, I believe, were ordered to stop at Salisbury after a serious accident in LSWR days which in turn would allow time to take on water. I think Southern locos tended to work all the way through to the destination as their journeys were shorter. Perhaps someone can enlighten.

Disc headcodes, like the GE and others regions using them (Scottish region around Glasgow I think), were used to indicate the route. They could have the same starting point and destination but it was the route they took to get there.

For example on the Southern: London Bridge or Bricklayers' Arms and Portsmouth. The top one is via Redhill and Horsham and the bottom one is via Mitcham Junction.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

My pug is bigger than yours Martin!

And one of my Grandfather's photos of a Whitelegg 'pug' approaching Southend in the 1920's.

Apologies for the extra hi-jack Brian.

 

[AJC]

Thanks Dave - I think it's unlikely that the WC was on a turn to Feltham (which must have been a freight duty making an S15 more probable). There certainly were engine changes, however, though as you say, I'm not sure about Salisbury. At Exeter, for example though that often involved reformation and the removal of dining cars, and for the Devon Belle, at Wilton, for reasons I don't quite understand but that at least is well recorded.

Adam

 

[Martin Shaw]

Dave, Adam
There were virtually no journeys on the Southern long enough to need engine changes en-route, your correct in respect of Salisbury and the accident in 1906, and the lack of troughs west of Salisbury was one of the principal reasons for the high capacity tenders behind some of the Bulleid pacifics. Merchant Navies were barred west of Exeter, as I believe were rebuilt WCs which explains engine changes at Exeter for through trains to the withered arm. The change of engines on the Devon Belle was done at Wilton rather than Salisbury purely so the SR could advertise it as a non stop service, so a publicity and marketing device rather than any technical reason. I understand that on a good day it took only two or three minutes which is shifting a bit.

The Scottish region, or rather the former Caledonian section of it used a bow tie indicator rather than dics for routing purposes, but in general this only applied to services that began or ended at Glasgow Central, St Enoch, and Edinburgh Princes Street, it got somewhat forgotten towards the end of steam and standard BR lamps became more common place.

Nice pic Dave, I wouldn't thank the man on top of the gantry for the job. I have often wondered about Mr Whitlegg and baltic tanks, none seem to have been overly successful, and quite what the Brighton with a 60 mile main line was thinking I really don't know. They were collectively one of the blind alleys of locomotive development. I suspect an over long boiler, inadequate heating surface, with too small a grate area limited steam generation, a problem that often occurred when a 4-4-0 or Atlantic was stretched, most railways were guilty of this to a greater or lesser degree.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

In respect of engine changes, it's surmise, but I wonder if the West Country at Salisbury had been on a local working. There were so many of the West Countries/Battle of Britains that their use on two or three coach trains wasn't at all unusual. As we had family near Bournemouth I've travelled behind them on really long trains from Waterloo in the 'fifties and they could shift - the issue was usually getting them started. Clearly super power for a small train when on a local though. We usually alighted at New Milton and it was common in the summer for the train to have to pull forward to get the rearmost carriages in to the platform.

Anyway, enough of reminiscing..... Today we have another Salisbury picture, 6915 Mursley Hall with 30855 Robert Blake, Salisbury MPD 30th November 1957. The Lord Nelson was a Nine Elms engine in January 1949 and was withdrawn from Eastleigh where it was allocated in February 1950 at the end of September 1961. (SLS). It was noted at Eastleigh awaiting Works in early September 1961 (SLS) and recorded as cut up at Eastleigh in week ending 10th February 1962. (RO).

From October 1956 the Hall was living at Bristol Bath Road (the shed plate is indecipherable), then Didcot in October 1958, Shrewsbury in February 1961 ending up at Banbury in August 1964 to be withdrawn in February 1965. (SLS). It was photographed in store there in April 1965 (WHTS) and reported by the Railway Observer as despatched from Banbury for G Cohen, Morriston by 15th May. It was photographed being cut up on 20th May. (WHTS). BR Database report a scrapping date of June 1965 which fits quite well.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

In respect of engine changes, it's surmise, but I wonder if the West Country at Salisbury had been on a local working. There were so many of the West Countries/Battle of Britains that their use on two or three coach trains wasn't at all unusual. As we had family near Bournemouth I've travelled behind them on really long trains from Waterloo in the 'fifties and they could shift - the issue was usually getting them started. Clearly super power for a small train when on a local though.

From my reading of various publications about the Southern modernisation plans, and if the second world war hadn't intervened, they were planning to convert their main West of England routes to diesel traction and maintain the electrification of the Kent, Surrey, Sussex and Hampshire routes. They also intended to reduce their steam locomotive classes to around four or so for feeder/local/goods services with the Merchant Navy, West Countries/Battle of Britains (hence so many) and Q1s being in the forefront.

It would have not been uncommon to see powerful locomotives at the head of smaller trains as electrification progressed with the requirement to keep up/fit in with the tighter electric train schedules as they drew closer to London.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Nice pic Dave, I wouldn't thank the man on top of the gantry for the job. I have often wondered about Mr Whitlegg and baltic tanks, none seem to have been overly successful, and quite what the Brighton with a 60 mile main line was thinking I really don't know. They were collectively one of the blind alleys of locomotive development.

Shame we did not look to Robert Garbe's T18 (BR78) of the Prussian State Railway.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Dave - I think it's unlikely that the WC was on a turn to Feltham (which must have been a freight duty making an S15 more probable). There certainly were engine changes, however, though as you say, I'm not sure about Salisbury. At Exeter, for example though that often involved reformation and the removal of dining cars, and for the Devon Belle, at Wilton, for reasons I don't quite understand but that at least is well recorded.

Adam

Hi Adam.

Clearly West Countries on freights at Feltham were far from unknown. I have a photo of one which will appear on these pages in due course......

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

A decent portrait of a "Q" - not the most attractive of classes but couldn't hold a candle to a "Q1" - with some nice accidental touches like the wagons and wheelbarrow, doubtless for the char being shovelled out of the smokebox. This is "Eastleigh MPD Yard 30th November 1957." 30534 was a Norwood Junction loco from he end of August 1950, so probably appears here straight out of works. It was reallocated to Brighton in May 1961 and Stewarts Lane in November 1962 where it was withdrawn the following month. It was observed at Stewarts Lane in April 1963 and March 1964 (LCGB) then by Railway Observer at Settle Speakman and Company Ltd, Queenborough, where it was observed on 7th April. BR Database report a scrapping date of May 1964.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

Given the location and cleanliness of the engine, I suspect it's ex works and having some final items refitted to the smoke box before returning to service; cinder guards or some tweaks after a test steaming?

There is no debris on the ground to suggest this is a regular clean up or service area.

The wheel barrow is probably for the fitters tools or to convey the items he has come to refit.

 

[Martin Shaw]

It also displays Eastleigh's total inability to apply any aesthetic considerations to the placement of the number and motif, at least they are both on the same horizontal line. B*****y awful.
Yours in regret
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

That's a good call, Mick. It would also account for the absence of coal in the tender, although I suppose it could be low enough to be below the tender top.

I'd actually not considered the aesthetics of the location of number or totem previously, Martin. But certainly not the most inspiring "look".

Now here's another "not great" photo but from my perspective particularly has to be included. It's described as "Believed to be Bricklayers Arms 1957". With the benefit of a good deal of belief on my part I think this is 30919 "Harrow". I'd really like it to be. It has the correct chimney and the pipework immediately in front of the cab goes under the handrail as it should. The reason for my liking of this particular loco is simple. It was the first model railway kit I ever built, from "Rosebud Kitmaster". I remember to this day my father bringing the kit home in about 1959 and handing it to me as an "unbirthday present". It was built to the best of my (not very good) ability and painted accordingly. Subsequently I've owned several. The Kitmaster kits became popular Christmas presents and one way or another I had at some time most of those produced in OO or HO. My Beyer Garratt is in the workshop right now as an unfinished rebuild project. I also had the Ariel Arrow although I don't think that was Kitmaster and probably still have the box for that somewhere.

If this is 30919 it was one of the first to go to the scrapyard at Ashford where it was reported in the scrap road on 20th February 1961. (RO). In 1957 it was shedded at either St Leonards or Ramsgate. It moved from one to the other in the June. It was one of the earliest withdrawals from the class, being withdrawn from Brighton in February 1961. BRDatabase advises that 30919 was scrapped in March 1961, just previous to my visit - 30932 was also withdrawn in Feb 61 and I saw that loco in Ashford Works Yard on 5th April 1961 along with 30933 which also appeared to be withdrawn, carrying no nameplates although it wasn't officially withdrawn until November the same year. The SLS report 30932 and 30933 still being in the works yard on on 28th July 1961.



Brian

 

[76043]

The slope sided mineral behind the Q is also in fine condition, I guess it was less than ten years old in 1957. I've been thinking that the new steel minerals introduced in the fifties would similarly also be a reasonable condition, so modelling them in the total rust bucket state might not be a good idea.

The wooden bodied mineral also appears to be a wooden chassis mineral with recent repairs. I thought a lot of these were on their way out by then? Assuming it is a wooden chassis and the white diagonal stripe is a white diagonal stripe.

Tony

 

[DougT]

The slope sided mineral behind the Q is also in fine condition, I guess it was less than ten years old in 1957. I've been thinking that the new steel minerals introduced in the fifties would similarly also be a reasonable condition, so modelling them in the total rust bucket state might not be a good idea.

The wooden bodied mineral also appears to be a wooden chassis mineral with recent repairs. I thought a lot of these were on their way out by then? Assuming it is a wooden chassis and the white diagonal stripe is a white diagonal stripe.

Tony

Completely agree re mineral wagons and their condition through the 50s and 60s. I’m always amazed at how often I see colour photos from that period which includes minerals and how often they are in decent condition, dirty and work stained yes, but not 80%+ rust.
I think for modellers it’s the challenge of replicating the rust condition in the weathering, despite the condition not really reflecting reality. Of course, from the 70’s as they aged and colour photos became much more widespread we see far more pictures of them in this extreme condition. I’ve actually de-weathered one of my minerals for that exact reason.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Now here's another "not great" photo but from my perspective particularly has to be included. It's described as "Believed to be Bricklayers Arms 1957". With the benefit of a good deal of belief on my part I think this is 30919 "Harrow".

I believe this loco is backing out Cannon Street which would indicate why there is no headcode present. Direct SE section Hastings services ran from either Charing Cross or Cannon Street. I came across this early photo taken from Cannon Street looking south on t'interweb and it's the asymmetrical gable ends and the chimney in the backgrond which match. The level luffing cranes on the right in Tim's photo indicates a river wharf and would be Red Lion/Ceylon Wharf.



The 'new' office block on the right of Tim's photo may be on Southwark Bridge road and be a bit more difficult to trace as it could have been demolished in favour of a newer office block or completely refurbished and thereby altering the facade in the process.

 

[oldravendale]

That all fits remarkably well, Dave. I'm sure you are correct - and the direction of the steam suggests that the loco is backing.

I always thought of Cannon Street as a small London Station.......... I've never travelled from there although been to that part of London many times. The trouble is that the railway is way above ground level when viewed and clearly all impression of scale is lost. That's a lovely bit of trackwork.

B

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

It was the wharf cranes, the number of tracks and the fact the latter were electrified which didn't look right for the vicinity of Bricklayers Arms. The Schools class indicated a Hastings line train which narrowed the search to Cannon Street and Charing Cross.

Charing Cross was ruled out as there would have been more open spaces where the 1951 Exhibition buildings stood, the building style of Hungerford Bridge and the Shell Centre Building would have been visible as my own late 70's early 80's unprocessed photo shows.



Bricklayers Arms is set more in a cutting and not on a viaduct or near river wharves. However, it was close to the now filled-in Grand Surrey Canal.

Both Cannon Street and Charing Cross were ex-SER stations whereas Victoria (Eastern), Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct were ex-LCDR.

 

[Ressaldar]

Is it possibly running tender first towards London Bridge station already lined up to go to Cannon Street on the northern side of the lines ? Are the cranes on the south bank of the river behind Tooley Street?

Just a thought.

regards

Mike

 

[Pannier Tank]

To my eye the 2P was one of the most elegant of locos. There were a couple at Watford which used to head a local parcels train through Harrow every day.

40657, 40659, 40672, 40683 were all Shedded at Watford circa 1960/62. 40672 (a long term resident) was my favourite.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
It looks very much like 19, there is no sign of the AWS bang plate under the front buffer plank and it was one of the class not fitted. It was also one of the four not repainted from black to BR green, difficult to tell under the light. Depending on the month it was either a Dover or Ramsgate allocation, it looks rather cleaner than Dover normally managed so prob Ramsgate which means after 12th June that year, neither had a patch on the Arms when they bothered. I'd also agree re Cannon Street but it looks as though it's in forward gear, there is no tail lamp so I don't think its going anywhere. I wonder if it is arriving to take an ECS working to Charing Cross and then work a subsequent trip to the coast? It was cut up at Ashford in Jan 62.

Mike, Tooley Street ran essentially from Tower Bridge to Southwark Cathedral, so not as far west as this, I believe it would be Bankside.

Of course by any definition the Schools were the finest 4-4-0 made in the UK, not unreasonably since they were the last of the type, feast your eyes gentlemen you'll see nothing finer.
Kind regards
Martin