Tales from The Room of Doom. Dipping a toe in various bucolic backwaters.

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Captain Kernow

Captain Kernow

Western Thunderer
I've used Tortoise and Cobalt point motors (Callow Lane and Bethesda respectively) and self-latching Seeps on Bleakhouse Road and Engine Wood.

It's been a while since I last operated Callow Lane, but I think I used the centre off type position switches that Jonte describes, except that they are not sprung ones. It's definitely the same on Bethesda. I can remember that, as I only operated it last October.

What I can't remember, is how I wired it all up. I'm going to have to look it all up again, when I do the next layout project (whatever that is, whenever that is).

And then there's servos. Still can't get my mind around them. You might as well try explaining rocket science to me...
 
James Spooner

James Spooner

Western Thunderer
I know what you mean on servos! I originally used Fulgurex on Elmham Market for the scenic section and many are still operating seventeen years after being installed. As they fail, though, I can’t get new Fulgurex and I have found the Cobalts to be a more than satisfactory replacement. It even helps (because the layout is fixed in place and when a motor fails I have to crawl underneath) that the Cobalts require very little soldering because all of the joins can be made with a screwdriver.

You may well ask why I had Fulgurex in one part of the layout and Peco solenoids in another…. Good question and I was being a cheapscate in the fiddleyard. I bought a job lot of a dozen H&M point motors for six pounds on the bay of ease. Bad move! The switches started failing then the solenoids got unreliable. However, having then set the wiring up for solenoids it made sense to continue down that road. An experiment with the Seep motors wasn’t much better so I landed on the Peco solenoids and they have been impeccably reliable since installation.

Nigel
 
B

Bob Essex

Active Member
Could I just say that often being clumsy when operating I.e. running into points set against the loco/stock, and using DCC with a separate bus for the point/signal servos, I find that some method of switching off the track power bus to allow the short to be dealt with, re-set the points, is needed. Otherwise you have to push the stock back manually to be able to re-set which is rather poor. A separate power supply would eliminate this aspect.

Bob
 
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simond

simond

Western Thunderer
Bob Essex said:
Could I just say that often being clumsy when operating I.e. running into points set against the loco/stock, and using DCC with a separate bus for the point/signal servos, I find that some method of switching off the track power bus to allow the short to be dealt with, re-set the points, is needed. Otherwise you have to push the stock back manually to be able to re-set which is rather poor. A separate power supply would eliminate this aspect.

Bob
Click to expand...
I have taken the same view, and currently do not have control of my few points from DCC, however I will consider it for the extended layout when I can build it.

There is another solution, and it’s the key advantage of a “frog juicer”. Whilst compared to a microswitch, they’re an expensive steam hammer to crack a relatively small nut, they will protect the layout and locos from the frog-short issue.

atb
Simon
 
NHY 581

NHY 581

Western Thunderer
simond said:
I have taken the same view, and currently do not have control of my few points from DCC, however I will consider it for the extended layout when I can build it.

There is another solution, and it’s the key advantage of a “frog juicer”. Whilst compared to a microswitch, they’re an expensive steam hammer to crack a relatively small nut, they will protect the layout and locos from the frog-short issue.

atb
Simon
Click to expand...

Hi Simon,

Demonstrating my ignorance here....Mindful I am going analogue for point control and DCC for locos, what is a frog juicer and how would it fit in to what I'm planning ?

Rob
 
Jordan

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
NHY 581 said:
Hi Simon,

Demonstrating my ignorance here....Mindful I am going analogue for point control and DCC for locos, what is a frog juicer and how would it fit in to what I'm planning ?

Rob
Click to expand...
A frog juicer is a circuit board that takes power from the track bus & feeds it via a third wire to the frog itself. Naysayers don't like them because a) yes they are a bit expensive & b) they work by actually detecting a short circuit, but that happens in nano seconds & doesn't affect train running.
They are totally seperate to the method of point control - I use frog juicers and my points (switches, actually, as my layout is American) are thrown manually with ground throws (point levers in English).
The term "frog juicer" comes from the old joke 'What's green & turns red at the flick of a switch?"
Answer - Kermit in a food blender.....

The Tam Valley frog juicers I use have green & red LED indicators. ;)
 
NHY 581

NHY 581

Western Thunderer
Jordan said:
A frog juicer is a circuit board that takes power from the track bus & feeds it via a third wire to the frog itself. Naysayers don't like them because a) yes they are a bit expensive & b) they work by actually detecting a short circuit, but that happens in nano seconds & doesn't affect train running.
They are totally seperate to the method of point control - I use frog juicers and my points (switches, actually, as my layout is American) are thrown manually with ground throws (point levers in English).
The term "frog juicer" comes from the old joke 'What's green & turns red at the flick of a switch?"
Answer - Kermit in a food blender.....

The Tam Valley frog juicers I use have green & red LED indicators. ;)
Click to expand...

Cheers, J

Thicky moment. Are these okay for DC then ?

Oh and do you use these instead of or with the polarity switch ?



R
 
simond

simond

Western Thunderer
Jordan, thanks, you beat me to it.

Rob, no, they won’t fly on analog DC. They replace the polarity switching on DCC layouts. I’m one of Jordan’s naysayers :) (but only ‘cos they're much more expensive than a microswitch). Sorry for the diversion. I’ll go back thru‘ the thread tomorrow, and see that I’m not leaping to wrong conclusions again…

as an aside, YouTube “Will it blend?”
This does not involve cruelty to & the untimely but spectacular demise of amphibians, but is an amusingly silly way of promoting a rather capable American blender.
 
Jordan

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
simond said:
I’m one of Jordan’s naysayers :) (but only ‘cos they're much more expensive than a microswitch).
Click to expand...
See?? I tode yer, day I..??!! :rolleyes: ;) :))
I only used them on my American layout because I use manual ground throws next to the switch (point/turnout/whatever) so there was no under board linkage to operate a micro switch. On my previous, portable incarnation of Portway Center, I did use under board rods, and used connected micro switches for the frog polarity. I've never used point motors on any of my layouts.
 
B

Bob Essex

Active Member
Given my propensity to fail to throw points and cause shorts I did look into using frog juicers to help with the issue but discovered two downsides. The first as said is that they only work with DCC track so if you had a layout you’d like to run as either DC or DCC then of course they won’t suit, ( and I do like to have this option for testing new locos/ stock). The second is that although there will be no short then the stock will derail as it meets the incorrectly set points, thus also probably causing a short….

As my (hacked) servos are just powered off the DCC system I use a DPDT to cut track power when the inevitable happens!

Bob
 
simond

simond

Western Thunderer
Tony,

Juicers:

Juicers are simple relays, which will switch the polarity of the frog/common crossing of a turnout.

They can be used in place of the internal switch in a point motor, or a separate microswitch. The switch option is infallible if you never run into a trailing point set against your move. None of us ever make that mistake…

They only work on DCC (though part of me thinks that it should be possible with an analog dc layout, I’m not aware of any examples.)

They are needed to avoid the DCC booster tripping its overcurrent protection if there’s a short circuit, such as an incorrect frog polarity being bridged to an adjacent closure rail by the pickups of a loco. Given very thin pickup wires in some locos, they offer some protection to the loco too.

They work by detecting the short circuit and changing the polarity of the frog very quickly, so the booster doesn’t need to shut down.

Per the Gaugemaster instructions, they only need 3 wires, one to the frog, and one to each stock rail. The frog must be isolated at all four rails. Ideally the point blades are bonded to the adjacent stock rail. Obviously, to save droppers, the juicer can be wired to the frog and direct to the DCC track supply, which means you can group them all in an easy to access location.

just looking at the Gaugemaster one, there’s about £1.50 of components and £0.50 of PCB, so it might be worth copying if you’re going to need lots, I guess that would suggest making a board with eg 8 frog connections, would probably cost a bit more than a tenner.

hth
Simon
 
James Spooner

James Spooner

Western Thunderer
Rob,

As a strong believer in the KISS principle, and if you are staying DC for point control, forget about juicers and stick to micro switches. I’ve just looked on the Peco website and they offer two types of twist lock (I think that is what you were going for); one without a micro switch (PL 1000) and one with (PL1001). You really want the PL1001 for ease of use. Wire up the twist lock as Jonte described and then the micro switch will take three wires: one from each rail (+/-ve) and then one going into the frog. As the motor changes the point, the switch will then change the polarity on the frog and avoid shorts.

Nigel
 
NHY 581

NHY 581

Western Thunderer
James Spooner said:
Rob,

As a strong believer in the KISS principle, and if you are staying DC for point control, forget about juicers and stick to micro switches. I’ve just looked on the Peco website and they offer two types of twist lock (I think that is what you were going for); one without a micro switch (PL 1000) and one with (PL1001). You really want the PL1001 for ease of use. Wire up the twist lock as Jonte described and then the micro switch will take three wires: one from each rail (+/-ve) and then one going into the frog. As the motor changes the point, the switch will then change the polarity on the frog and avoid shorts.

Nigel
Click to expand...


Morning, Nigel.

I couldn't agree more. I have three of the PL-1001combinations ready to go.
Given that Storm Daragh is still playing up hereabouts ( leading to a late cancellation of my static grass demo day at Lord & Butler today ) I may well have the opportunity to further matters at some point ( ! )

Rob
 
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