4mm On Heather's workbench - on a Holden to…Yarmouth?

[Heather Kay]

Things creep forward slowly, slowly.





I am starting to work on the roofs. Inside, the brass partitions are assembled, but need tidying. I’ve cut down the plastic seats (delivered a while back) to fit each compartment. I have to work out how to fit some kind of flooring, even if it’s just blocking holes left in the brass floor during construction.

We come now to questions of the GER Hive Mind:

• What colour were the seats. The instructions mention brown in passing. Was that for both classes?
• The handrail on the corridor sides: brass or wood? I can’t tell from the black and white photos of coaches right at the end of their lives.
• How were smoking and non-smoking compartments arranged? Does this have a bearing on the weird way the roof vents are laid out?

Any comments in those directions will be most welcome.

 

[Mick LNER]

What period iI presume LNER ?

LNER On new coaches, 1st Class Green/Blue 3rd Red. No idea re GER they may have been left in GER Colours till scrapping. Same issue with handrails, Brass in LNER On Corridor Coaches, no idea re GER .

Sorry No idea re Vents.

 

[76043]

I do have the GERS journals on the coaching stock up to grouping, I can take a look and see if there's anything in there on seating.
Tony

 

[Heather Kay]

What period iI presume LNER ?

Well spotted! I forgot to mention it. Mid to late '20s, so LNER stewardship.

Head says wooden rails, heart says brass. As I say, most photos are of the coaches at the ends of their service lives in the late 1950s. I have seen some works photos, but they seemed to concentrate on the compartment side! I have a notion most of the hand rails externally were painted black, so I do wonder if the expected bling of bright metal rails inside is a conceit.

I do have the GERS journals on the coaching stock up to grouping

I have several copies of the journal here, specifically those covering the Holden coach building programmes. I need to read them a bit more thoroughly, though they do tend to repeat themselves and cover batch and running numbers rather than details.

 

[Chas Levin]

Morning Heather, I can't better Mick's seating colours and would also concur on brass rails: I've never seen anything to suggest wooden ones and I think you're right to distrust your own idea of bright and blingy metal: once brass has been in the open air and - more importantly - has been handled by multiple people, it very quickly loses its shine. Likewise, I've never come across mention of black painted exterior handrails. There are pre-grouping examples of brown painted ones (ECJS from memory did so at times I think) but otherwise, I believe they'd also have been bare but tarnished metal.
Another point is how things appeared in the B&W photos of the time. Given the way teak panels appear very dark, when we know from other contemporary colour photos they were actually quite light, I shouldn't be at all surprised if brass is similarly darkened.
That being said, I fit my own coaches with untarnished brass wire for handrails, elevating aesthetic considerations (I love the look of them!) above prototypical accuracy!
The coach cohort looks very impressive by the way - not so much 'Harry Christophers and the sixteen', as 'Heather Kay and the sixteen'!

 

[Heather Kay]

Likewise, I've never come across mention of black painted exterior handrails.

My failing memory, I’m afraid. My client sent me a Hornby LNER Gresley suburban as a paint guide for the colour and livery he'd like. I just checked that and commode and door handles are dull brass. I’ll head that way.

As for the interior rail, I’m open to suggestions. If they were wood, I can install them now with solder, and paint them later in situ. If brass/nickel I’ll have to fit them after painting with glue. Either way, there's a lot of them with all the doors on the corridor sides!

More piccie peeping, I think.

 

[Peter Insole]

I don't want to be regarded as the awkward squad... but! I think the assumption that brass handrails would become dulled by multitudinous contact is actually quite the opposite! Whilst it is true that the merest touch by human digits on bare brass will quickly lead to a layer of tarnish, the quantity of handling then re polishes the surface. On our front door for example, we have a brass letterbox and a large knob - neither of which has any trace of lacquer remaining. The former has minimal daily contact - and requires frequent polishing, while the latter is almost dazzling in its natural brightness - to the point where it is almost wearing away! Corridor handrails, in such a narrow passageway, would not only be grasped on a regular basis - but would be almost constantly brushed by passenger's clothing as they pass and repass!

I have always been under the impression that corridor handrails - on most companies earlier rolling stock of the type anyway - were generally of polished timber, and the image below of ex GER stock seems to confirm that idea?!



The handrails visible appear to be of a notably brown shade - so I think it would be highly unlikely that they would have been made of any type of metal - apart perhaps from something with a deliberately "Bronzed" finish?! Incidentally, it has to be said that the latter was also quite common for many other carriage interior fittings - right up until "Chromium plate" became much more fashionable!

I would suggest therefore, without any other evidence to the contrary coming to light, that representing these in four millimetre scale with a brown colour would be the most likely, and best option Heather!

Pete.

 

[Peter Insole]

Stop press! I have just found R.C. Riley's superb photograph of E62445E at Haverhill in 1958!

It quite clearly shows a near profile view of the corridor side of a 1907, 50ft brake third - albeit just a month or so before withdrawal! (Sorry I cannot show the image as my scanner is kaput!)

From that I note, both the corridor handrails and the external commode rails are very thin specimens indeed - so much so, that with the former, wood is extremely unlikely to be the material (bearing in mind it's length)! The latter, even if cast in bronze, would lack strength also. I think it most likely that both are made in the foundry from wrought iron - with the commodes being painted - and the internal handrails sleeved with decorative tube - probably bronze. That method itself was a not uncommon feature in Victorian and Edwardian domestic appliances also! (Think ornate, brass and iron bedsteads, but also fire irons and dogs, as well as cooking ranges, utensils, etc.)

The image also reveals a distinct lack of shine - so I will stick with the same outcome as before; a brown shade of coating - just a different reasoning from my previous reply!

Pete.

 

[Chas Levin]

Very interesting points Pete. in reply to your first post, I too have seen brass fittings retaining a shine, as you say. I think it's different to the shine we see on either brand new brass or brass that's been polished, but it's certainly a common thing to see.

I would suggest though that there is also an appearance that some brass fittings take on through years of use (and where they're not being regularly polished to a shine with brass polish) which appears brown to the eye and which is composed of a thick layer of oxidation, tarnish or whichever term. I believ that's what we're seeing in photos where brass handrails or similar fittings appear brown.

I'm going to look through some books on LNER coaches though, to see if I can spot anything. I must admit I've usually looked through books like the Michael Harris ones with an eye on teak, lining or lettering and not the rails...

 

[Peter Insole]

Sadly, you are not alone Chas. It is not so much that you failed to take note of carriage interior details while concentrating on the outside... Rather, that as most publications on the subject are based on, or influenced by a modeller's perspective, those details are rarely there to miss in the first place! Even authors credited with having written "definitive" accounts on passenger rolling stock, more often than not choose to ignore the interiors. At best, such matters are reduced to basic footnotes, or might just get a brief mention in the appendices!

I do find this apparent lack of interest for decent research very frustrating, if not rather odd - bearing in mind that the whole point of a railway carriage is for the conveyance of passengers - with their comforts and sense of well being always being such an important focus for everyone involved in the specification, design and manufacture?!

But I suppose it must be me that is the truly odd one?

Sorry Heather, none of this is either news, nor of any help to you, so thread bomb with thoroughly negative attitude over! Please carry on as you were!

Pete.

 

[Heather Kay]

No need to apologise, Peter. I believe we are kindred spirits in the quest for internal detail correctness. See almost every carriage thread I’ve done. It’s something that afflicts my model aircraft as well - even though most of the detail will never be see again!

 

[Crimson Rambler]

Somewhere at the back of my mind I recall an enquiry into a railway accident wherein the Inspecting Officer criticised the use of brass corridor handrails because they had restricted escape. He recommended that wooden ones be used in future as these could be readily broken in an accident. Can't for the life of me remember which accident it was but odds on it was on the Midland with Hawes Junction or Ais Gill being most likely - Charfield early LMS possibly? Of course in all of these fire broke out through gas lighting so there was an added incentive for rapid escape.

Was the wood quietly dropped with the use of electric lighting?


Crimson Rambler

 

[76043]

I'd happily post something on the GERS forum for you Heather, if you want to outline the remaining questions?
Tony

 

[Heather Kay]

I'd happily post something on the GERS forum for you Heather, if you want to outline the remaining questions?

That’s very kind, Tony, but I think I now have enough info for the job at hand. I have to keep remembering the scale, and how little will actually be seen in the end!

 

[76043]

Ok, no worries. Cheers, Tony

 

[Osgood]

FWIW, some internal shots of a (restored) GNR Gresley corridor as running on SVR - although obviously brass from these views, I reckon you’d be hard pushed to work out from the outside if they are brass or wood although I would be amazed if wooden rails of this proportion retained their straightness.

 

[oldravendale]

I'm sure I remember them in wood on the Bulleids. But, then, I only have a forgettery nowadays.

Brian

 

[AJC]

I'm sure I remember them in wood on the Bulleids. But, then, I only have a forgettery nowadays.

Brian

Maunsells, too. Not a preservation change, so far as I know. There’s so few bogie GER vehicles in preservation (and only ‘specials’ actually restored), who can tell?

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

I'm basing my recollections based on memories of trips to New Milton behind Bulleid Pacifics in the late 1950sto mid '60s, Adam. But at this distance in time I'll bend to any challenge about that.

Brian

 

[Genghis]

But, then, I only have a forgettery nowadays.

Brian

Welcome to the club!