3D Printing - whether to buy, what to buy and how to use it?
ICH60
Western Thunderer
I uses a Saturn 8K and have had no problems just running with the Chitubox setting and printing at 0 degrees, just change the thickness 50, 30 or 20 micron. The only issue I found is warping issues. over time. Some warping worse than others.
ianlbsc
Western Thunderer
I use a Saturn 2 with Sirayatec fast in the normal range of colours - currently grey as I can buy 2kg bottles from Amazon at a reasonable price. Usually I print flat to the build plate but ensure there are holes for reducing suction forces. I have been using the Sirayatec given settings put into chitubox and have been very happy. These are just the print with a bit of etched brass not yet fitted.
and these are a few more parts just printed and getting ready to assemble the etched chassis and rods and a few other parts for each.
Some issues with the first tender flares, middle left, cured when I put a hole in the top for the tender dome and water filler, middle top and bottom left.
These are early Stroudley or late Craven locos for the LB&SCR. I am using Slaters wheels and their SG29 motor gearbox which I find I can fit almost anywhere. Just starting to draw the tender for the 2-4-0 and the necessary transfers for which I use two layers - white first layer using a ghost toner and then normal toner colour for the other colours, onto very thin waterslide paper. Works a treat.
I ensure there are holes in the boiler to drain the resin from inside the dome, s/v etc and a through hole for the chimney. Printed all at 0.05 layer height as per the recomendations. I used to print at 0.03 but haven't really noticed any loss of definition. Cheers, Ian
and these are a few more parts just printed and getting ready to assemble the etched chassis and rods and a few other parts for each.
Some issues with the first tender flares, middle left, cured when I put a hole in the top for the tender dome and water filler, middle top and bottom left.
These are early Stroudley or late Craven locos for the LB&SCR. I am using Slaters wheels and their SG29 motor gearbox which I find I can fit almost anywhere. Just starting to draw the tender for the 2-4-0 and the necessary transfers for which I use two layers - white first layer using a ghost toner and then normal toner colour for the other colours, onto very thin waterslide paper. Works a treat.
I ensure there are holes in the boiler to drain the resin from inside the dome, s/v etc and a through hole for the chimney. Printed all at 0.05 layer height as per the recomendations. I used to print at 0.03 but haven't really noticed any loss of definition. Cheers, Ian
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simond
Western Thunderer
I needed to print some prototypes for moulded components for work this weekend and took the opportunity to find out the actual costs, compared with Chitubox’ estimates.
Chitubox 126.09ml / 138.7 g / 4.16089 $ / 9h8m30s
part full resin container 654g.
empty resin container 147g
Saturn initial time estimate 09h09m after 1 minute elapsed
Saturn revised time estimate 11h26m after 11 minutes elapsed (19 layers of 2501)
was still going when I went to bed… (no aurora when I checked
)
Filtered resin back into container 469g
I’ve just set it going again, 07:41 so it’ll finish some time around 7pm this evening. I’ll check that though it’s not really important.
so resin used, 654-469 = 185g.
There’s obviously some wastage when filtering & cleaning the print tank but 46g (24.8%) seems extreme. I didn’t weigh the wet filter paper, but the tank and yellow scraper were wiped down with no more than half a dozen sheets of something soft and beloved by Labrador puppies, again I didn’t weigh them before and after, and I’m not getting them out of the bin.
The density calculation suggests that Chitubox is using a density of 1.1 g/cm3 which is what’s printed on the Siraya FNG data sheet. They do specify this is liquid, I can’t imagine it changes very much as it solidifies, or the parts would come out at odd sizes, which they don’t.
The cost of resin seems to change with the weather, I recently bought 10kgs of FNG, but can’t find the reference. My previous purchase was 4kgs at $167.99 so $42/kg. Chitubox’ estimate is based on $30/kg, so I could update that.
I removed the supports whilst the parts were still green - they weighed 35g.
Part weight was 131g,
Hence total 166g.
I could believe 19g (10%) of wastage on the filter and loo roll, so my guess is that Chitubox does not allow for the supports when calculating resin use, which seems daft.
To check, I’ve gone back to Solidworks, the three parts have volumes of
32088.66 mm3
62350.47
13032.63
total 107471.76mm3 = 107.5cm3 which at 1.1 g/cm3 would weigh in at 118.2g.
That doesn’t tie in with Chitubox estimates, actual resin used or the final part weights!
Other costs - consumables - electricity will be negligible, as is bogroll.
Filter papers are £8.75/25 so £0.35 each, and I find I can use one filter about four times, by simply rinsing it. Say 10p per print.
Replacement FEP film is currently £6.10 for a Saturn. I’ve never needed but have some in stock, should I get a cut. There are recommendations to change the FEP every so often, but I’m in the “it ain’t broke” school of maintenance in this regard. When/if it becomes obviously opaque, I‘ll do it then. I’ve had the machine a couple of years now.
Isopropyl alcohol is £20/5 litres, and I’m guessing I might get 100 prints from a refill, which is about 6 litres in my wash tank. Say 25p per print.
If I assume a straight line allowance for the difference between Chitubox’ estimate and actual resin usage, I can simply multiply the actual resin cost per kg by a factor of 185/138.7 (ie 1.33) and put that in as the resin cost $56 or £47.90 if it’ll do GBP.
And add 35p for consumables. That makes this little job cost about £9.20 per run, and I’ll be doing three sets of bits, so I think I might want paying!
in any case it’s an interesting exercise to work out the likely cost of making something this way.
Chitubox 126.09ml / 138.7 g / 4.16089 $ / 9h8m30s
part full resin container 654g.
empty resin container 147g
Saturn initial time estimate 09h09m after 1 minute elapsed
Saturn revised time estimate 11h26m after 11 minutes elapsed (19 layers of 2501)
was still going when I went to bed… (no aurora when I checked
)Filtered resin back into container 469g
I’ve just set it going again, 07:41 so it’ll finish some time around 7pm this evening. I’ll check that though it’s not really important.
so resin used, 654-469 = 185g.
There’s obviously some wastage when filtering & cleaning the print tank but 46g (24.8%) seems extreme. I didn’t weigh the wet filter paper, but the tank and yellow scraper were wiped down with no more than half a dozen sheets of something soft and beloved by Labrador puppies, again I didn’t weigh them before and after, and I’m not getting them out of the bin.
The density calculation suggests that Chitubox is using a density of 1.1 g/cm3 which is what’s printed on the Siraya FNG data sheet. They do specify this is liquid, I can’t imagine it changes very much as it solidifies, or the parts would come out at odd sizes, which they don’t.
The cost of resin seems to change with the weather, I recently bought 10kgs of FNG, but can’t find the reference. My previous purchase was 4kgs at $167.99 so $42/kg. Chitubox’ estimate is based on $30/kg, so I could update that.
I removed the supports whilst the parts were still green - they weighed 35g.
Part weight was 131g,
Hence total 166g.
I could believe 19g (10%) of wastage on the filter and loo roll, so my guess is that Chitubox does not allow for the supports when calculating resin use, which seems daft.
To check, I’ve gone back to Solidworks, the three parts have volumes of
32088.66 mm3
62350.47
13032.63
total 107471.76mm3 = 107.5cm3 which at 1.1 g/cm3 would weigh in at 118.2g.
That doesn’t tie in with Chitubox estimates, actual resin used or the final part weights!
Other costs - consumables - electricity will be negligible, as is bogroll.
Filter papers are £8.75/25 so £0.35 each, and I find I can use one filter about four times, by simply rinsing it. Say 10p per print.
Replacement FEP film is currently £6.10 for a Saturn. I’ve never needed but have some in stock, should I get a cut. There are recommendations to change the FEP every so often, but I’m in the “it ain’t broke” school of maintenance in this regard. When/if it becomes obviously opaque, I‘ll do it then. I’ve had the machine a couple of years now.
Isopropyl alcohol is £20/5 litres, and I’m guessing I might get 100 prints from a refill, which is about 6 litres in my wash tank. Say 25p per print.
If I assume a straight line allowance for the difference between Chitubox’ estimate and actual resin usage, I can simply multiply the actual resin cost per kg by a factor of 185/138.7 (ie 1.33) and put that in as the resin cost $56 or £47.90 if it’ll do GBP.
And add 35p for consumables. That makes this little job cost about £9.20 per run, and I’ll be doing three sets of bits, so I think I might want paying!
in any case it’s an interesting exercise to work out the likely cost of making something this way.
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timbowales
Western Thunderer
for?????)
Don’t leave us in suspense.
Tim T
Don’t leave us in suspense.
Tim T
simond
Western Thunderer
Patience, dear fellow, patience…
Richard Gawler
Western Thunderer
I have just bought a printed model by accident. The seller described this as "resin" so I imagined it was a kit of parts cast from resin.
I don't know the technical details so I'm not sure whether this is helpful to people making their own prints; but the model is vastly better than the prints I have bought in the past i.e. five+ years ago.
I cannot see any traces of glue so I guess this was printed all in one piece. I am amazed!
From 'Narrow Minded Railworks', through eBay.
I don't know the technical details so I'm not sure whether this is helpful to people making their own prints; but the model is vastly better than the prints I have bought in the past i.e. five+ years ago.
I cannot see any traces of glue so I guess this was printed all in one piece. I am amazed!
From 'Narrow Minded Railworks', through eBay.
simond
Western Thunderer
And don’t forget that 3DP can do more than make models…
Almost anything that could be moulded
Might be cheaper, more convenient, home-made…
Fairly obviously it’s a challenge to photograph it with the phone fitted…
But it does!
For anyone not familiar with the mounting system, they’re called RAM mounts, and they clamp 1” balls fitted to whatever at any useful angle. I simply printed a widget that fitted the dashboard and a holder for the phone with the integral balls and bought a clamp on eBay, though I guess I could have printed one of those too.
I also recently bought a MIFI device, which didn’t come with a mounting kit. It’s got one now!
Printing objects is really very versatile. Please refer to my workbench thread for details of a 3DP soldering jig for slidebars.
Clearly the materials have their limitations, as does the printer, but I keep finding new jobs for it!
Almost anything that could be moulded
Might be cheaper, more convenient, home-made…
Fairly obviously it’s a challenge to photograph it with the phone fitted…
But it does!
For anyone not familiar with the mounting system, they’re called RAM mounts, and they clamp 1” balls fitted to whatever at any useful angle. I simply printed a widget that fitted the dashboard and a holder for the phone with the integral balls and bought a clamp on eBay, though I guess I could have printed one of those too.
I also recently bought a MIFI device, which didn’t come with a mounting kit. It’s got one now!
Printing objects is really very versatile. Please refer to my workbench thread for details of a 3DP soldering jig for slidebars.
Clearly the materials have their limitations, as does the printer, but I keep finding new jobs for it!
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Richard Gawler
Western Thunderer
This has just arrived from MS Models of Chesterfield, bought through their eBay shop.
The model is not perfect, and the string courses below the tank are curving downwards ever so slightly; but the angled copings and the curved corner bricks are so typical of 19th century workmanship.
As one who was very sceptical of 3D printing (and got his fingers burned too many times) the technology is beginning to look useful. I mean, just imagine making this from scratch.
Osgood
Western Thunderer
They have some really nice-looking buildings etc on offer.
Here's something that might be just a bit too late for @Tim Hale :
Here's something that might be just a bit too late for @Tim Hale :
Fuel Stage Model Railway Detailing/Scenery N/TT/00/O left hand/right hand TT:120 | eBay
Colour of resin may vary from what is shown in pictures. Usually grey or white. Supplied unpainted. 100% UK DESIGNED AND MANUFACTURED.
www.ebay.co.uk
Hayfield1
Western Thunderer
There are very interesting developments especially for 7mm+ scale modelers printing scale trackwork using only FDM machines. Using a Neptune 4 machine we are getting very good print, with the latest Templot update allows building a common crossings even easier
This B7 turnout was printed using the previous software version, it not only looks excellent but works as good as it looks
Printed on a Neptune 4 machine which have recently been reduced to £172 including delivery
Previously I have used my Kingroon printer, the print quality is not as good as it leaves a lot of strings, but the prints do clean up. The Neptune 4 not only prints at nearly twice the speed, but also has a bigger printing bed. This allows a 7mm turnout to be built in 3 sections where as the Kingroon with a smaller print bed needs splitting into 4 sections.
This B7 turnout was printed using the previous software version, it not only looks excellent but works as good as it looks
Printed on a Neptune 4 machine which have recently been reduced to £172 including delivery
Previously I have used my Kingroon printer, the print quality is not as good as it leaves a lot of strings, but the prints do clean up. The Neptune 4 not only prints at nearly twice the speed, but also has a bigger printing bed. This allows a 7mm turnout to be built in 3 sections where as the Kingroon with a smaller print bed needs splitting into 4 sections.
I'd agree that FDM printers have a place for the larger scales. With a smaller (0.2mm) nozzle it's surprising how god a detail you can deliver. Plus you don't have to deal with messy, smelly and potentially hazardous chemicals.
I'd suggest anyone thinking of buying into FDM, look very seriously at the Bambu labs printers, especially the A1 now it's been reduced a lot.
Whilst a little more expensive they have a lot of advantages over the competition;
Better design, build quality and reliability.
Larger build plate than most other similarly priced printers.
Clever flow calibration obviating a lot of boring testing.
Fast easy nozzle changes.
Good software package that has excellent presets, so it really can deliver great prints straight out of the box without lots of tedious testing.
Not perfect, but the small extra expense buys a much easier printer to use.
I'd suggest anyone thinking of buying into FDM, look very seriously at the Bambu labs printers, especially the A1 now it's been reduced a lot.
Whilst a little more expensive they have a lot of advantages over the competition;
Better design, build quality and reliability.
Larger build plate than most other similarly priced printers.
Clever flow calibration obviating a lot of boring testing.
Fast easy nozzle changes.
Good software package that has excellent presets, so it really can deliver great prints straight out of the box without lots of tedious testing.
Not perfect, but the small extra expense buys a much easier printer to use.
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magmouse
Western Thunderer
Another thumbs up for the Bambu printers from me - I have just bought an A1 mini, and I agree that you can get good results out of the box, with access to settings to fine tune things as you learn how it works.
This is a test piece, showing a length of T section with nut and bolt ends - the T section is just under 3mm each way:
FDM isn't ready to replace resin yet, and probably won't be ever for some tasks, but they are getting closer together, and FDM is certainly convenient, for the reason Paul mentions.
Nick.
This is a test piece, showing a length of T section with nut and bolt ends - the T section is just under 3mm each way:
FDM isn't ready to replace resin yet, and probably won't be ever for some tasks, but they are getting closer together, and FDM is certainly convenient, for the reason Paul mentions.
Nick.
simond
Western Thunderer
I have yet to invest in a home FDM printer, but will need to do so for work, our Ultimaker has been in the office for around 7 years, but has become much less reliable of late. It cost around £3k in 2017…. Times have changed.
At a supplier visit a few weeks back, I was looking at Bambu printers, they have half a dozen or so, and were very happy with them, so I suspect that’s the direction we’ll go.
At a supplier visit a few weeks back, I was looking at Bambu printers, they have half a dozen or so, and were very happy with them, so I suspect that’s the direction we’ll go.
It's revealing to follow some of the 3D printers groups on Facebook. My first Creality printer's group was full of people having problems with hardware, firmware, software and support issues. Moving to the Bambu group the vast majority of 'problems' were users failing to read the manual or make any effort to try to use them correctly. User failure, not kit failure.
magmouse
Western Thunderer
Or in this case, PICNIP.
Hayfield1
Western Thunderer
One of the 3 bricks (sections) of a 7mm scale B6, small amount of stringing which tends to remove itself when rail is threaded through
From my limited knowledge its not only the printer that's important but the tweaking of the print software, and in this case using PLA+ filament. I am in the situation of needing the knowledge and inspiration of others
Neptune 4 used which at the moment is being sold for £172 inc postage