Too good to ignore.
- Thread starter Renovater
- Start date
jcm@gwr
Western Thunderer
The porters, or the seagulls?
Sorry Colin, just a jest - I claim no additional knowledge. Just that so many "posed photographs" did end up in such uses. I would of course like to know the real reason a glass plate was expended on such a shot!
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
This is London Blackfriars. It's the electric stock, wooden platform and low overall roof which are the give away.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Looking at the photographs posted thus far it appears the photographer was interested in the human/workers aspect of railway operations with the odd one or two 'usual' railway photos such as the Marsh Atlantic on the Southern Belle. Which I suspect was shot between Balham and Streatham as there are no 6.6kV AC overhead wires - this section to Coulsdon North being completed by the SR as it had already been started by the LBSC. In late 1929 it was converted to the inferior 3rd rail system.
For the record.
Victoria - London Bridge via Brixton and Denmark Hill '.e. the South London Line' was electrified in 1909.
Victoria - London Bridge via Clapham Junction, Balham and Tulse Hill; and the line to Crystal Palace was electrified in 1911.
Osgood
Western Thunderer
And for the most part carefully planned and posed to achieve the desired images, rather than opportunistic snap shots.
I mean, when did youlast ever see a lady leaning out of a carriage droplight scoffing chips?
Access to the non-public areas of railway premises, but not just one railway company.
Intriguing.
I mean, when did you
Access to the non-public areas of railway premises, but not just one railway company.
Intriguing.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
It's not entirely unusual. I was bequeathed a friend's photo collection of subjects going back to 1920-ish and there are some glass negatives included. I was quite amazed as the dedication necessary to have the camera and ambition to take photographs on glass plates must have been considerable.
Brian
ianlbsc
Western Thunderer
This is the District Line B stock - I drew the etches for MARC models back in 2004! Temporary bogies at left so must be a general overhaul. Beautiful set of photos. Cheers
Renovater
Western Thunderer
Thanks, any idea on the stock to the far right ?....Colin.
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76043
Western Thunderer
Well, at the rear, it looks like F stock as it appears not be slab sided, with some form of tube stock in front.
Tony
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
There are several candidates for the tube stock, however I've counted the number of slats in the louvre panel and there are 18. This matches the Feltham built motor cars of the 1927/28 'standard stock' used mainly on the Piccadilly Line. 1923 'standard stock motor cars have 15 slats in their Louvre panels.
EDIT - having looked again at my references I agree with @Peter Insole and this is 1920/22 Watford Joint Stock.
From the photograph angle it's difficult to say whether the surface stock behind is 1913 E, 1920 F, 1923 G, or 1927 K stock. Taking the stock in turn:
E stock was vertical sided and its waist beading was carried around the car end. It was also non-clerestory also had an elliptical roof profile
F stock is a good candidate based on the end roof profile but it did not have cab corner hand grabs and the body side is quite angled inwards from the waist beading relative to the normal slab sided stock (E, G & K). Also F stock had 3 pairs of double doors down the car side whereas G and K stock had two pairs of double doors and single end doors on the car side. F stock waist beading was just carried around the corner on the car ends.
G stock has a vertical hand grab on the car end but the end roof profile doesn't display the clerestory.
K stock does have a prominent hand grab on the car end and the clerestory curves down at the car ends to leave an elliptical roof profile at the car ends.
I think we are either looking at E or F stock and would tend towards the latter as there appears to be an apparent upper bodyside inward taper.
Interesting photo overall as it would be Acton works under LER ownership prior to the formation of LPTB in 1933. And of course the Met had Neasden works.
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Haven’t looked on here for a looong time.
Acton Works Lifting Shop image – soon after opening. With extra edits and corrections from additional quick research, the Shop opened for business in 1928, and the car to right has body profile and general appearance that probably best suits LNWR & LER Joint Stock (colloquially “Watford Joint Stock”), with a further clue in the single centre door that looks to be of the swing door inset type.
For efficiency, another rapidly complied footnote, having now seen Post 21 on 24 February 2023:
The post’s upper image is assumed to be the same occasion as the District train in the lower image, and may be early 1930s.
Location is High Street Kensington, trains occupy Inner Rail platform (used by anti-clockwise Circle trains). Mid-platform foot bridge is the location clue, slightly helpful archive image available:
B/W print; View of a section of District/Circle line platform at High Street Kensington by Topical Press, 3 Dec 1936 | London Transport Museum (ltmuseum.co.uk)
Train in upper image is 4-car Metropolitan Railway stock, seems to be all clerestory cars, Motor Car at rear is probably 200Hp-motored for a Circle working. Train number 350 (looks like LT-style numerals) is not in a Circle series either Met or LT, may be an unusual service or a disrupted service temporarily displaying a Crew Duty number.
Leading car is Metropolitan Saloon Stock 1904 build (distinguished by narrow bodyside windows) First Driving Trailer (1DT), end vestibules with the most common small lookout windows arrangement (some other builds of 1DT had distinctive different). First Class car from new, one of 20 cars (1-20 in Driving Trailer series). Leading end only shoebeam confirms this. Gate-ended car when new, end vestibules added later, mostly 1906-7.
The (apparently light-colour) numeral 1 on bodyside door glass and some side lights indicates First Class – these numerals are relatively uncommon in 1930s images. Not visible but there will also be a white on black oval “First Class” on some side lights – a style added in the 1920s. Some cars of this type had improved interior finish, done around 1930 but unlikely here given the apparent older style of class designation. Other cars from the original group were re-equipped from around 1929 to run as Driving Trailers with M-V motor coaches. If not an Improved Interior car, leaves only a small number of candidates (I speculate 1DTs 7, 13, 14, 20 which faced the Down direction, as here,
Another small footnote to add.
The Acton image is typical of several taken in the early years of the Works. The Underground Group used picture agencies a great deal when needing images for record as well as publicity. Topical Press was one favourite. Maybe this image and others were copies either retained by a photographer or perhaps purchased from an agency for use? - much as we would purchase from the modern online agencies.
Acton Works Lifting Shop image – soon after opening. With extra edits and corrections from additional quick research, the Shop opened for business in 1928, and the car to right has body profile and general appearance that probably best suits LNWR & LER Joint Stock (colloquially “Watford Joint Stock”), with a further clue in the single centre door that looks to be of the swing door inset type.
For efficiency, another rapidly complied footnote, having now seen Post 21 on 24 February 2023:
The post’s upper image is assumed to be the same occasion as the District train in the lower image, and may be early 1930s.
Location is High Street Kensington, trains occupy Inner Rail platform (used by anti-clockwise Circle trains). Mid-platform foot bridge is the location clue, slightly helpful archive image available:
B/W print; View of a section of District/Circle line platform at High Street Kensington by Topical Press, 3 Dec 1936 | London Transport Museum (ltmuseum.co.uk)
Train in upper image is 4-car Metropolitan Railway stock, seems to be all clerestory cars, Motor Car at rear is probably 200Hp-motored for a Circle working. Train number 350 (looks like LT-style numerals) is not in a Circle series either Met or LT, may be an unusual service or a disrupted service temporarily displaying a Crew Duty number.
Leading car is Metropolitan Saloon Stock 1904 build (distinguished by narrow bodyside windows) First Driving Trailer (1DT), end vestibules with the most common small lookout windows arrangement (some other builds of 1DT had distinctive different). First Class car from new, one of 20 cars (1-20 in Driving Trailer series). Leading end only shoebeam confirms this. Gate-ended car when new, end vestibules added later, mostly 1906-7.
The (apparently light-colour) numeral 1 on bodyside door glass and some side lights indicates First Class – these numerals are relatively uncommon in 1930s images. Not visible but there will also be a white on black oval “First Class” on some side lights – a style added in the 1920s. Some cars of this type had improved interior finish, done around 1930 but unlikely here given the apparent older style of class designation. Other cars from the original group were re-equipped from around 1929 to run as Driving Trailers with M-V motor coaches. If not an Improved Interior car, leaves only a small number of candidates (I speculate 1DTs 7, 13, 14, 20 which faced the Down direction, as here,
Another small footnote to add.
The Acton image is typical of several taken in the early years of the Works. The Underground Group used picture agencies a great deal when needing images for record as well as publicity. Topical Press was one favourite. Maybe this image and others were copies either retained by a photographer or perhaps purchased from an agency for use? - much as we would purchase from the modern online agencies.
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Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
I've checked through my reference, and the "tube stock" on the right is certainly a motor car of the LNWR/LER "Joint stock". The Central London Railway, "Watford" cars only had a very small window between the switch compartment and the door - whereas the former had an additional large window there, and only three thereafter, towards the end vestibule.
Interestingly, they originally carried the full, LNWR carriage livery - and then later, were lined and marked LMS.
The "B stock" car in the foreground is possibly a former motor car, converted into a trailer? They were favoured for life extension as the motors had steel underframes - whereas the trailer frames were timber, and consequently had a somewhat shorter lifespan!
Pete.
Interestingly, they originally carried the full, LNWR carriage livery - and then later, were lined and marked LMS.
The "B stock" car in the foreground is possibly a former motor car, converted into a trailer? They were favoured for life extension as the motors had steel underframes - whereas the trailer frames were timber, and consequently had a somewhat shorter lifespan!
Pete.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
The 1920/22 Watford Joint Stock did initially spring to mind in my original searching and agree having looked again.