Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the additional info about Viscount Portal Martin @Martin Shaw and Simon @SimonT . The sources may differ but we have them as references so both will be included. As for the United Dairies, I think you are correct, Martin! That's the side of a vehicle rather than a building. Thanks for yours, Adam @AJC demonstrating a possibility. A Classic case of 2+2=5 as I made the geography fit my belief. I therefore think that Dave @Yorkshire Dave is probably correct about the location. Finally thanks for the extras about 65508.

Arun - I have no confirmation about the identity of the loco but having a detailed look at the photo I tend to agree that it's not Sun Castle. I'll add your thoughts to the file.

An A3 new to this thread is A3 60105 Victor Wild here at Kings Cross, possibly in July 1961. The allocation had been Grantham from as long ago as September 1951 and from where it was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It went in to Doncaster Works for cutting up on 22nd August 1963. (BR Database). As seen in the photo it was one of the A3s fitted with smoke deflectors which were applied with diagram 94A boiler number 27070 during a general overhaul at Doncaster in November/December 1960. (BR Database).



An unidentified Class N15 (or possibly an N10) 0-6-2T believed to be at Shettleston on 14th September 1961.



N15 0-6-2T 69126 at St Rollox Junction on 14th September 1961. The loco lived at Dawsholm from January 1958 and the SLS reckon it went in to store at the end of May 1959 and was withdrawn in February 1962 so it must have escaped between times to be in this picture! It was scrapped at Clarkston, Atlas Steelworks, Lanark in September the same year. (BR Database).



Another N15 0-6-2T, 69183 and here with the Queen of Scots Pullman stock at Glasgow Queen Street on 14th September 1961. This was an Eastfield loco from at least 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in November 1961 going to Arnott Young at Old Kilpatrick where it was scrapped in September 1963.



Brian

 

[Cransford]

I have some slightly varying info,
7000 Viscount Portal Newton Abbott 25/5/46, Gloucester 15/5/59, Worcester 14/8/62, Gloucester 30/8/62, Worcester 22/3/63, Wdn 28/12/63,
Cut up Cashmore's Great Bridge.

IMG#196 I've had a good look at NLS maps and frankly I'm still not certain exactly where. The "United Dairies" appears to be on a vehicle rather than a building. It may be beside an Underground station , there looks to be a possible LT roundel sign beneath the footpath lamp post. The most likely location I have come up with is Dudding Hill Lane where it crosses the line from Cricklewood to Acton Wells which of course is nowhere near an LT station. This is frankly a best guess.

65508 Peterborough East 11/00, March 1/9/30, Cambridge 14/10/38, Norwich 2/8/44, March 13/1/46, Stratford 29/6/47, Wdn 3/6/58.

Martin

I thought I'd throw my tuppence into the ring on this one (#IMG196).

Having spent many a happy day working in the area, I'll wager my hat that the train is, as surmised by Oldravendale, on the Down City Goods travelling from Kensal Green Junction towards Harlesden and Brent Sidings. I think picture was taken from footpath that ran from Willesden Junction Station to Harrow Road. There were no sidings on the other side of bridge that I recall (and not on any BR rating plans either from memory). I think the 'United Dairies' is actually written on a road tanker - looking at the slanted shape!

Cheers,

Paul

 

[76043]

So four wagon trains plus brake van did exist! Ricey was right all along. Nice.
Tony

 

[hrmspaul]

The types hint at engineers' spoil carriers, I think - only one of the five clearly visible has a steel underframe (GW?), while the others are two each of LNER six plank and LMS dia. 1666.

Adam

Adam

Sorry, I disagree about the wagon nearest the brake van. GWR opens had twin strapping on the door and door bangers, as did the SR. Not like an LNER open so I think it is an early steel framed MR or LMS open merchandise diag 1667. In support I think it is just possible to make out the half round strip that such wagons have on the cantrail below the door - although I admit that is a stretch with the kit I have available to view. I'll also admit I'm not convinced as the single door strapping appears longer than the early LMS designs.

Paul

 

[AJC]

Adam

Sorry, I disagree about the wagon nearest the brake van. GWR opens had twin strapping on the door and door bangers, as did the SR. Not like an LNER open so I think it is an early steel framed MR or LMS open merchandise diag 1667. In support I think it is just possible to make out the half round strip that such wagons have on the cantrail below the door - although I admit that is a stretch with the kit I have available to view. I'll also admit I'm not convinced as the single door strapping appears longer than the early LMS designs.

Paul

Paul - you've spent more time on this than I have and are more familiar with the minutiae of the types than I am (without additional research, in my case!). Happy to accept that.

Adam

 

[Martin Shaw]

The loco in IMG#733 is most definitely an N15, the NB shunters stepboard under the bunker is a giveaway and the lack of an elegant NER casing around the safety valves also mitigates against it being an N10. I suspect #733 and #734 are at the same location, the spear fencing on the railway boundary and the quasi gulag housing in the background point to this. The photos could be either St Rollox or Shettleston but the modernish semaphore bracket signal and my gut feel is the former. By 1961 there would have been some signs of electrifcation and modern signalling at Shettleston. It's probably the same engine in both pictures so,

69126 St Margarets 6/10, Eastfield 24/2/28, St Rollox 12/8/57, Dawsholm 3/1/58, Wdn 12/2/62, Sold for scrap to G.H.Campbell Airdrie 31/7/62.

69183 Eastfield 3/17, Wdn 13/11/61, Sold for scrap to Arnott Young Old Kirkpatrick 17/9/63.

Martin

 

[Barry37]

I thought I'd throw my tuppence into the ring on this one (#IMG196).

Having spent many a happy day working in the area, I'll wager my hat that the train is, as surmised by Oldravendale, on the Down City Goods travelling from Kensal Green Junction towards Harlesden and Brent Sidings. I think picture was taken from footpath that ran from Willesden Junction Station to Harrow Road. There were no sidings on the other side of bridge that I recall (and not on any BR rating plans either from memory). I think the 'United Dairies' is actually written on a road tanker - looking at the slanted shape!

Cheers,

Paul

Indeed it is. The building above the loco cab is 250 Harrow Road. In Streetview "See other dates", there is less "forest' at the side of the building, and its filled in panels can be seen, including the two that still have small windows in them.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Paul @Cransford and Barry @Barry37 for more confirmation of the location.

Yes, Tony @76043 - that's a lovely and manageable prototype for sure.

Adam @AJC and Paul @hrmspaul . Your advice about the wagon is much appreciated.

Martin @Martin Shaw - thanks for confirmation of the loco class and also for the details including the likely location.

B1 61140 on a Glasgow local train on 14th September 1961 and the location is believed to be Partick. So, noting that the OHLE is erected I suspect this might be during the period when the blue units were temporarily withdrawn and all manner of motive power was drafted in at short notice to fill the gap as the usual V1s and V3s had been withdrawn. I hope that @JimG will confirm this. The B1 was an Eastfield loco from June 1952 moving to Motherwell in November 1966 and being withdrawn in the following month. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston in February 1967. (BR Database).



On the same date and another location on the Glasgow Suburban network was Ivatt Class 4 43140 believed to be on a Ballock train possibly at Shettleston. At the time he loco was allocated to Parkhead where it arrived in July 1960. It moved to Dawsholm in November 1961, West Auckland in November 1963 and Thornaby a month later, then Darlington in June 1964, Blyth in November the same year, Stourton in June 1965 and finally Normanton in February 1967 where it was withdrawn in the following May. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull (RO) by 27th November 1967. (WHTS and BR Database).

Edit: The loco is confirmed to be a Standard Class 4 2-6-0 rather than an Ivatt 2-6-0.



Stanier 2-6-4T 42462 on a possibly Helensburgh train and possibly (but unlikely in my view) at Glasgow Charing Cross. Again it’s scratch motive power due to the failure of the blue EMUs. The loco was a quite recent addition to Scottish stock havng moved from Springs Branch, Wigan where it had lived since September 1953 to Parkhead in February 1961. It was withdrawn in May 1966 (All SLS) and went to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge where it was scrapped in August the same year. (BR Database)



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Brian,

Photos one and three look to be the same location....

 

[Dave Holt]

The "Ivatt 4 43140" is actually a BR Standard Class 4, 2-6-0 of the 76000 type.
Dave.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Photos one and three look to be the same location....

After some investigation all three in post #5188 are at the same location - Partick Hill (or Partickhill). This station closed in 1979 when the new one named Partick (Hill was dropped) was opened about 200m south in the block bounded by Dumbarton Road, Merkland Street, Beith Street and Hayburn Street partly on the site of the old tram depot.

 

[JimG]

B1 61140 on a Glasgow local train on 14th September 1961 and the location is believed to be Partick. So, noting that the OHLE is erected I suspect this might be during the period when the blue units were temporarily withdrawn and all manner of motive power was drafted in at short notice to fill the gap as the usual V1s and V3s had been withdrawn. I hope that @JimG will confirm this.

Stanier 2-6-4T 42462 on a possibly Helensburgh train and possibly (but unlikely in my view) at Glasgow Charing Cross.

The Glasgow Blue Trains were withdrawn from the newly started service in December 1960 after several explosions in their transformers. The transformers were redesigned and the electric service re-started later in 1961. I missed all this since I had started work in London in October 1960 but a friend reported that it was a very interesting period when pretty well any steam locomotive that could be obtained was used. The original steam service had been run using V1/V3 tanks but most had been dispersed to other areas and much more powerful locos were regularly used. Some drivers tried to emulate the electric timetable.

And as others have noted, all three pictures are of Partick Hill station. Charing Cross station is at the western end of Sauchiehall Street when the line has gone underground and is a long, deep chasm of a station with a tunnel mouth at each end and open to the sky.

Jim.

 

[GreenAyre42]

Can I butt in and ask, whats the story with the line-up of new looking Ford Anglia's on the 'platform' at Holloway Road, at #5173 ?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Can I butt in and ask, whats the story with the line-up of new looking Ford Anglia's on the 'platform' at Holloway Road, at #5173 ?

The Ford Anglias also appear earlier in the thread in post #1,940 et seq and it was surmised they are either being delivered to a local dealer or waiting for onward delivery. Also the parking area is fenced off from the railway.

At this period Ford Anglias were produced at Dagenham (and also Halewood from October 1963). With Dagenham effectively 'around the corner' so to speak I would suspect these Anglias arrived on a road car transporter.

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

After some investigation all three in post #5188 are at the same location - Partick Hill (or Partickhill). This station closed in 1979 when the new one named Partick (Hill was dropped) was opened about 200m south in the block bounded by Dumbarton Road, Merkland Street, Beith Street and Hayburn Street partly on the site of the old tram depot.

I thought that was Partickhill but didn’t reply as I wasn’t sure. I had student digs in Helen street so used it regularly for about a year.

Ian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I thought that was Partickhill but didn’t reply as I wasn’t sure.

As a mere Sassanach (ha ha) I was looking at the BR totem which says Partick Hill however when searching records they show the area as you've correctly described - Partickhill.

Searching the stations in Partickhill turned out to be a bit of a rabbit warren:
Partick (Partick Hill from 1953) - NBR - opened 1874 closed 1979.
Partick Central (Kelvin Hall from 1959) - Lanarkshire and Dumbartonshire** Railway - opened 1896 closed 1964.
Partick West - Lanarkshire and Dumbartonshire** Railway - opened 1896 closed 1964.
Merkland Street - Glasgow Subway - opened 1896 closed 1977. Now a 'ghost' station.
Partick - BR - opened 1979. This replaced, and is about 200m south of, the NBR 1874 Partick/Partick Hill station. It forms an interchange with the subway where a new subway station was built about 25m south west of the closed Merkland Street station.

**Dumbartonshire - this is the spelling adopted by the railway of Dunbartonshire during the period when the spelling was freely interchangeable.

 

[Mick B]

61140 is paired with a self weighing tender.
Mick.

 

[Arun Sharma]

61140 is paired with a self weighing tender.
Mick.

Very well spotted

 

[GreenAyre42]

The Ford Anglias also appear earlier in the thread in post #1,940 et seq and it was surmised they are either being delivered to a local dealer or waiting for onward delivery. Also the parking area is fenced off from the railway.

At this period Ford Anglias were produced at Dagenham (and also Halewood from October 1963). With Dagenham effectively 'around the corner' so to speak I would suspect these Anglias arrived on a road car transporter.

Thanks for that Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Graham @Dog Star, Dave @Yorkshire Dave, Jim @JimG and Ian @Ian@StEnochs. Thanks to all for confirming the location with such accuracy - and to Ian for the background to the Blue Trains scenario. Then Dave @Dave Holt - you are clearly correct wit your loco identification there - to be corrected. As Dave @Yorkshire Dave has said, @GreenAyre42, we've seen those Ford Anglias previously and I'm grateful to Dave for even identifying a post as a reference. And Mick @Mick B. I'd never have identified that tender as self weighing in a month of Sundays so thanks for that.

There are many comments here and against the previous posts which are probably best incorporated in to edits against the original commentaries so I'll be doing that in the next week or two. There is, of course, some information where we have maps and such which will not suit such changes and I'll be entering those details against the individual commentaries in my personal files.

Particularly in view of Jim's @JimG comments above I'm confident in saying that this photo is of V1 2-6-2T 67631 at Glasgow Charing Cross on 14th September 1961 in a series Tim called “Sunshine and Shadow”. BR Database proposes that the loco had been at Parkhead since January 1948 and SLS that withdrawal occurred in March 1962. The loco was scrapped at Darlington Works (RO) in April 1963. (BR Database).



Two photos of V1 67630 at Glasgow Charing Cross on 14th September 1961, the first on a local train and the second in the “Sunshine and Shadow” series with the loco in the same location but light engine. This V1 was a Parkhead engine from March 1961 and was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in November 1963 (BR Database) at Darlington Works. (RO).

Edit: The second picture is at Queen Street Low Level.





This is N15/1 0-6-2T loco 69188 banking a train out of Queen Street, Glasgow, Station on 14th September 1961 and in Tim’s series “Station Pilots”. The loco was allocated to Eastfield from at least December 1935 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in October 1962 (SLS). It was scrapped at Cowlairs Works in December 1962. (BR Database).



Previously in post #1724 is SR Q1 0-6-0 33002 in the first of these two photos returning to the SR with a brake van at Cricklewood on 22nd November 1961 – the image in post #1724 is in the same series. Not surprisingly this loco was based at Feltham and had been there since February 1961. It was withdrawn from there in July 1963. (SLS) and scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering, during June 1964. (BR Database). The second photo is on the same date but at Willesden on a transfer freight.





Brian