Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

Bits and bobs. The O4/3 class part designation was done away with in 1940 according to Yeadon or 1932 according to the RCTS, choose your option, it being merged with O4/1 which all engines were subsequently called. There was little difference between the two parts, most of which were peculiarities resulting from being built for a theatre of war. These were later altered or removed by the L&NER making virtually no difference. So strictly speaking 63774 is actually an O4/1 at the time of the photo, although it retains its original Belpaire firebox.
Sheds were Gorton 5/4/24, Doncaster 27/5/45, Gorton 25/6/45, Retford 8/7/45, Mexborough 27/8/50, Langwith Jcn 3/9/61, Darnall 23/9/62,Staveley 13/1/63, Wdn 10/3/63, into Doncaster works for scrapping 8/10/63.

It should be pointed out that 63795 and 63571 are Thompson O1 rebuilds of originally O4/3s, 6595 on 12/2/44 and 63571 on 27/8/49. This was essentially a B1 100A boiler on the O4 frames and wheels and fitted with Walschearts valve gear, the original Gresley O1 class became O3 under Thompson, shades of A1 being reclassified as A10 I feel. For some undoubted manpower reason they were never renumbered into a contiguos run, and given the stramash that is these 2-8-0 ramifications I can well understand why.

63795 sheds West Hartlepool 12/2/44, Gorton13/3/44, Annesley 2/4/50, March 17/2/57, Staveley 13/12/59, wdn 30/10/63, into Doncaster works for scrapping 7/2/64.

63571 sheds Annesley 27/8/49, March 3/3/57, Staveley 3/1/60, Wdn 13/12/64, Sold to A.Draper Hull 2/65, cut up 29/3/65.

Info from Yeadon and RCTS.

In the last pic it is I think a B1 to the left, possibly 61047 with an empty tender and sold to J Cashmore Great Bridge in 3/63, and another O1 to the right judging by the shape of the spectacle plate window. It is certainly a goods engine as there is a 3 link coupling on the tender and no vacuum pipe.
Saturdays musings done.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for that comment, Heather. I had it in my notes to mention the bent running plate. Then it went out of my head in all the excitement of collecting the details....

Martin. That's smashing stuff, and thanks for the references too. I've added all the data you've provided and now consider myself better educated. I'll be grateful if you'll update details on the next two 2-8-0s as well, as my references are somewhat restricted right now. In fact I'm likely to have the same problem with the B1.

Class O1 2-8-0 63590 in a shed scene, then a portrait, both at Staveley on 27th February 1963. Allocated to Staveley it was seen there on 10 December 1962 and 14 July 1963, then in store on 19th June 1965. The shed closed on 20th June. (Shed Bash UK). Withdrawn in July 1965 in July and August 1965 it was seen in store at Langwith Junction. It arrived at Dairycoates Sidings at Hull on 20th September 1965 and was cut up at Draper's in Hull on 4th October. (I have cobbled this data together from WHTS as there are some conflicting sightings).





Class O4/6 2-8-0 63914 at Staveley on 27th February 1963. This was a Retford engine, seen there with a Retford shed plate on 12th August 1962 and 21st July 1963. When seen on 7th June 1964 it was withdrawn and Retford closed in January 1965. (Shed Bash UK). Withdrawal was on 28th May 1964, it was seen in store at Retford between May and August and eventually went to Rigley's, Bulwell Common Wagon Works in August although the actual scrapping date is not recorded. (WHTS who acknowledge the withdrawal and scrap yard location info from Yeadons Vol 24b).



Finally B1 61165 at Sheffield Midland Station on 27th February 1963. In November/December 1959 the Locoshed book gives the location as Mexborough, (it was stored at Mexborough in November 1961 according to Rail UK) and in May/June 1964 as Canklow. It was seen at Mexborough on 28th January 1962 carrying a 41F shed plate and at Canklow on 1st July 1962 carrying a 41D plate so it was transferred at some time between those two dates. There were no other sightings of it at Canklow. (Shed Bash UK). Rail UK records it as being withdrawn from Canklow on 1st November 1964 and then to Drapers at Hull where it was scrapped by the end of April 1965.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

By all means Brian,

63590 was rebuilt from O4/1 6243, to Frodingham 16/12/44, Gorton 7/1/45, Colwick 18/8/46, Gorton 20/10/46, Annesley 26/11/50, March 3/3/57, Staveley 15/11/59, Langwith Jcn 13/6/65, Wdn 11/7/65, sold to A.Draper Hull 8/65, cut up 4/10/65. Quite why the three weeks at Frodingham which isn't really anywhere near Gorton and also two months at Colwick make little sense either, although it was during and immediately post war so perhaps a freight 2-8-0 might have been in demand. I'm not at all certain what's on the turntable behind, possibly a WD by the shape of the chimney.

63914 is complex and at the time of the photo was in fact an O4/8. It started life as an O5 number 5012 in 1918, this is really an O4 with a larger diameter boiler, 5' 6" instead of 5' 0". It used the same boiler as the B6 4-6-0s and apparently there were no spare boilers so the GCR rebuilt two of them to class O4/1 releasing the boilers for the pool spares for O5 and B6. The now seventeen members of the O5 class were a bit of an anomaly amongst the 400 odd O4s so the LNER rebuilt them all between 1926 and 1943 which seems a bit slow even by the LNERs impoverished condition. 5012 which became 63914 was the first LNER O5 to O4 rebuild in , they did however retain the larger cabs so they were reclassified as O4/6. The cabs were eventually rebuilt to fit the LNER Composite Load Gauge but without changing the class part.

Thompson when considering his standard engine programme recognised the need for a 2-8-0 and decided that a modernised O4 with his B1 boiler was the answer, these became the O1s. As I think it was probably a stop gap, an O4 with a BI boiler but retaining the "chassis" made considerable sense and there were eventually ninety nine (O4/8) of them. It seems the condition of the cylinders determined whether an O4 was rebuilt to an O4/8 or an O1. As it was only two O4/6s were rebuilt to O4/8, 63914 and 63915 in 7/55 and 1/56 respectively.

63914 when an O4/8, Retford 30/7/55, Wdn 28/5/64, sold to Bulwell Forest Wagon Works 8/64. Apart from Retford its only other shed was Mexborough 12/12/19 - 12/1/46.

61165 is relatively straight forward. One of the batch of 50 built by The Vulcan Foundry at Newton le Willows it led a bog standard existence into traffic on the 28/5/47 at Gorton who were presumably the LNERs acceptance works, it went to Mexborough 14/6/47, Canklow11/3/62, Wdn 1/1/64, Sold 1/65 to A.Draper Hull.

Info from Yeadon and RCTS.

Kind regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Once again I'm in your debt, Martin - thank you. All details attached to the negs updated. Regrettably BR Database is still down. Hopefully it will return tomorrow. In the meantime scratch details attached to these images.

Notable in this series are some very reasonable quality photos actually taken from trains. I tried it many times but never achieved the results Tim has.

Jinty 47325 on freight taken from a train in the Derby area on 27th February 1963. The Locoshed book for November/December 1959 advises that this loco was allocated to 27F Brunswick Liverpool. The book for May/June 1964 advises it was at 16C Derby. Happily a shed bash at Derby, 17A (it had changed to 16C some time between 1963 and 1964) records this loco on shed on 24th February 1963 carrying a 17A shed plate. WHTS records withdrawal on 11th September 1965 although it doesn't refer to the final shed allocation. Neither does Rail UK although both sources advise it went to Buttigeigs in Newport and Rail UK advise it was scrapped there by the end of June 1966.



Fairburn 2-6-4T with various other unidentified LMS locos in this view of the shed area at Derby on 27th February 1963. Referring to my trusty Locoshed books again I note that 42230 was allocated to 14D Neasden in November/December 1959 and then 16C Derby in May/June 1964. Once again I used Shed Bash UK which has no sightings recorded at Derby for 1963 or 1964, but the loco was seen there, carrying a 16C shed plate, on 28th February 1965 so at the time of the photo was probably allocated to Derby. Both Rail UK nd WHTS record the loco as withdrawn from Trafford Park (where WHTS record it as having been in store for a period) on 7th August 1965. Both also report the loco going to Cashmore's, Newport, and Rail UK advise a scrapping date by the end of April 1966.


Another Jinty, 47272 as station pilot at Derby on 27th February 1963. Shed Bash UK records this at Derby Shed carrying a Derby shed plate on 24th February 1963. By May/June 1964 the Locoshed Book refers to the loco as at Hasland. It was withdrawn from Hasland at the end of June 1966 and went to Birds, Long Marston, where it was scrapped by the end of October the same year.


Rebuilt ex-Crosti boiler 9F 92029 from a train in the Derby area on 27th February 1963. Readable is "15" on the shed plate, and it was noted at Wellingborough (15A) on 16th Aril 1961 carrying a 15B Kettering shed plate. On 13th May 1962 it was seen at Kettering carrying the same shed plate so we can safely assume it was allocated to Kettering when Tim photographed it. (Shed Bash UK). It was withdrawn on 30 June 1966 according to Rail UK, but the LCGB record the withdrawal date as 11th November 1967. Final allocation is not confirmed but it was stored at Speke Junction from November 1967 to January 1968, but conflictingly it was observed at Edge Hill on 9th December 1967. It went to Campbells at Airdrie for disposal (WHTS). Rail UK advises last shed as Birkenhead, withdrawal on 30th November 1967 and a disposal date of 28th February 1968 but agrees it went to Campbell's... so pick the bones out of that.





Brian

 

[daifly]

I wonder if the tender water filler lid is open because of laziness or to stop it freezing closed in that very cold winter.

Dave

 

[Dog Star]

Rebuilt ex-Crosti boiler 9F 92029

By the date of the photograph there is a very good chance that the feedwater preheater has been isolated and that resulted in an engine which could not perform as a 9F... see this quote from the Wiki page for the BR Std Class 9F:-

"quote"
These problems (with maintenance of the feedwater) led to the subsequent sealing off of the preheater drum, over the period 1959–1961, and the locomotives were then worked conventionally. As a result of this, there was a reduced ability to generate steam, and so their power classification was unofficially reduced from 9F to 8F.
"end quote"


Ought the text be amended to reflect the (unofficial) reduction in power classification?

regards, Graham

 

[Martin Shaw]

47325 Built by NBL 1926, original number 16408, sheds Edinburgh (Dalry Rd?) 1929, Edge Hill 8/7/33, Shrewsbury 29/5/37, Edge Hill 3/7/37, Brunswick 13/10/56, Derby 1/10/60, Crewe South 14/4/64, Wdn w/e 11/9/65.

47272 Built by Vulcan Foundry 1924, original number 7112, sheds Hasland 1/1/27, Stored serviceable 24/9/62 - 7/2/63, Rowsley 9/2/63,
Derby loan 23/2/63, Hasland 18/5/63, Birkenhead 12/9/64, Wdn w/e 18/6/66.

Info from The Book of Jinties Vol 1, Irwell Press.

Sorry no info on Fairburn tanks.

92029 Built by Crewe July 1955 sheds Wellingborough 7/55, Store LMR 6/59, Wellingborough 6/60, Kettering 12/60, Saltley 10/62, Birkenhead 12/63, Saltley 4/64, Croes Newydd 5/66, Saltley 8/66, Birkenhead 12/66, Wdn 11/67. Stored Speke Junc sold 1/68 G.H.Campbell Airdrie, cut up 2/68.

Info from The Book of the 9Fs, Irwell Press and BR Standard Steam Locos Vol 4 RCTS.

Dave is right on both counts.
Graham has a point however whilst the rebuilt Crosti 9Fs were theoretically an 8F because the boiler heating surface was significantly smaller, in practical terms the boiler pressure and cylinders were the same size and they did more or less the same work as their standard cousins and BR didn't officially change the power grouping so I think they should remain as 9Fs. I think the projected savings of the Crosti system were good for an elderly Italian State Railways locomotive but with a moderrn decently designed boiler the capital costs didn't justify themselves, as BR and Franco Crosti found out. With hindsight it looks suspiciously like an ill thought out attempt to hang on to steam traction at all costs, I fear Riddles and Cox must take some blame here, although of the 10 built the first was withdrawn in Oct 66 and the other 9 en masse in Nov 67 so they can't have beeen too terrible and I would think by then adequate work for them would have all but disappeared.

Regards
Martin

 

[John Duffy]

The Italians were building Franco Crosti boiler locos at the same time as the 9F but theirs lasted longer. The Germans also had late built (converted) F/C boilered locos, so not just for "elderly Italian State Railway locomotives" it would seem.

John

 

[oldravendale]

Dave - I guess you are likely correct about that filler. We've certainly seen it on a number of the Winter 1963 photos so it seems likely.

Thanks all for the thoughts and comments about the Crosti boilered 9Fs. Graham - The photo shows the 9F as rebuilt - the footplate under the smokebox has been reinstated as part of that rebuild. 92029 was rebuilt in 1960. I agree that the scribes have expounded that the costs of maintenance outweighed the benefit of the pre-heater. However my understanding is that the rebuild involved the removal of the pre heater. It may have been simply sealed off initially (I'd not heard that previously) but I believe was subsequently removed. The theoretical loss of power putting them in the 8F category has certainly been expressed elsewhere and is probably correct, but they remained included in the 9Fs so for the avoidance of confusion I'll not change the description. Nevertheless the notes regarding the difference in output are relevant and added to the negative files.

I'm not in any position to speak with any authority about the use of the Franco Crosti system outside the UK. I remember seeing it in use in Italy and certainly the locos I saw it on were not in the first flush of youth! However they may well have been used successfully on more modern engines elsewhere.

Martin - Thanks again for all the extra and confirmatory info. It will be used.

Thanks, John for raising the matter of other railways and their use of the Franco Crosti system. I wonder if the differences in the success rate were related to water quality in the UK compared with that in Germany (and Italy, come to that).

In this collection there are a few of the Franco Crosti engines in original condition but I can't forecast when we'll get to them!

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

No being au fait with steam locomotive technicalities I had to look up Franco Crosti boilers.....

In laymans terms they were designed to utilise both the exhaust steam and firebox gases to preheat the water whereas a conventional feedwater heater only uses exhaust steam to preheat the water.

The DB and FS had the most success as noted earlier and it could well be their more generous loading gauges allowed a larger system to be installed making them more economically viable at the time.

However, the major downfall was the maintenance required and corrosion - the latter probably from sulphurous acid (H2SO3) and nitric acid (HNO3). Both of these are created by the reaction of mixing of steam (H2O) and the two main firebox gases - sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen dioxide (NO2) from burning the coal. Other major gases formed are carbon dioxide (CO2) which is slightly acidic and nitrogen monoxide (NO).

Water quality would have a negligible effect whereas coal quality i.e. sulphur content would have an effect. In general terms the hard coals (anthracite and bituminous) have a lower sulphur content than the soft coals (sub-bituminous and lignite).

 

[Martin Shaw]

John and Dave make fair points, there is bound to be a bit of standard British "not invented here" about Franco Crosti but let us not forget that the british locomotive boiler post war was as good as anywhere else in the world. I'm thinking here of A4s, Bulleid pacifics, Duchesses, 9Fs and most of Swindons output, especially so when the draughting was got right. To squeeze it all into the loading gauge and produce the quantities of steam they did is a great achievement even if the poor fireman was overlooked in the process and to make a significant improvement was difficult.

As far as I understand the preheater was just sealed off and had the intended lifespan been achievable then maybe new boilers as part of a rebuild might have made sense however I think by 1960 it was accountancy wise all over.

Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

The next lot of photos - and there are a lot and not presented in any particular order- were all taken on the West Countryman on 24th February 1963 organised by the LCGB. Locos used were 1450, 4591, 5564 & 60022 'Mallard'. This info is taken direct from Six Bells Junction for which I express my grateful thanks. See The Railtour Files Photos will follow with details attached to each photo where it will add some data.

" (1) Run to commemorate the 15th anniversary of the 1948 Locomotive Exchanges. In L.C.G.B. literature it was variously described as 'Westcountryman', 'The West Countryman' & 'The West Countryman Limited Rail Tour' - take your pick!
(2) Originally listed as 24th March 1963 in error. Some confusion exists in published records between this tour and the Hampshire Railfans tour of 17th March 1963 which also used 'Mallard'. The above is believed to be correct for the route and organiser of the tour that ran on this date, contrary to what other published records may suggest.
(2) A change of train was made at Tiverton Junction. Pre-tour blurb commented that only 225 passengers could be carried on the Hemyock branch.
(30 Per the tour itinerary; The train, excluding the Culm Valley Line, will be formed of 9 or 10 coaches, mainly B.R. open type stock with a former Southern Railway 'Tavern Set' (RKB and RCO) for dining and buffet facilities. From Tiverton Junction to Hemyock and return a very mixed combination of stock will be used comprising ex Barry Railway beake second W268W with gas lighting, two B.R. built L.N.E.R. Thompson suburban brake seconds E87245E and E87270E, supplemented by three freight brake vans."

Loco(s)	Route
60022	London Waterloo - Clapham Jn - East Putney - Wimbledon - Surbiton - Woking - Basingstoke - Andover Jn - Salisbury - Gillingham - Yeovil Junction - Axminster - Exeter Central
4591 + 5564	Exeter Central - Exeter St Davids - Thorverton - Tiverton - Tiverton Junction (1)
1450	Tiverton Junction - Hemyock
1450	Hemyock - Tiverton Junction (1)
60022	Tiverton Junction - Taunton - Frome - Westbury - Newbury - Southcote Jn - Reading - Southall - London Paddington

60022 at Tiverton Junction.







14XX Class 1450 at Tiverton Junction. It was allocated to Taunton, Tiverton Junction. WHTS record it as withdrawn on 7th May 1965 and thence in to preservation by the GWS but this is incorrect. "Preserved British Steam" advises that it's currently at the SVR.

Edit: The owners have taken it to the Flour Mill in the Forest of Dean, though it's not mentioned on their site.





60022 Tiverton Junction again.



It appears that Tim somehow got access to the corridor tender.



View from the West Countryman on the return journey.



Lots more of the same subject to come...

Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Brian,

1450 was not in preservation with the Great Western Society.

regards, Graham

 

[AJC]

Brian,

1450 was not in preservation with the Great Western Society.

regards, Graham

Quite so - 1450 was the one that went to the Dart Valley (South Devon Railway as it is now): dad's slides include pictures of it at Ashburton, and at Buckfastleigh. He recalls that oiling round on the thing was hell without a pit. 1466 was the one that went to Didcot. More details here: 1450 (though Exmouth Junction shed is the one that's meant - it was one of those that was reactivated to work the Seaton branch, among others as well as Hemyock - nice details of a United Dairies tank there, Brian).

Adam

PS - it seems (though I'd never registered this before), that it was named 'Ashburton' for a time, too:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482122265567375362

 

[oldravendale]

Apologies, Graham. I took my notes from WHTS and (as I've mentioned previously) the time taken to check data against more than one source takes so much time I'd never publish anything! However I really value being pulled up with information which correct the errors. However checking Preserved British Steam Locomotives (1450) I understand the loco is at the Severn Valley Railway - but if this is incorrect I'll be grateful for your correction.

No pictures tomorrow as I'm tied up with other things all day but I'll try to put some more up on Thursday.

Edit - Thanks for your additions, Adam which were being made coincidentally with my comments above. I hope I'm right about the Severn Valley! And the milk tank is good, I agree, so thanks for drawing it to our attention.

Brian

 

[AJC]

Apologies, Graham. I took my notes from WHTS and (as I've mentioned previously) the time taken to check data against more than one source takes so much time I'd never publish anything! However I really value being pulled up with information which correct the errors. However checking Preserved British Steam Locomotives (1450) I understand the loco is at the Severn Valley Railway - but if this is incorrect I'll be grateful for your correction.

No pictures tomorrow as I'm tied up with other things all day but I'll try to put some more up on Thursday.

Edit - Thanks for your additions, Adam which were being made coincidentally with my comments above. I hope I'm right about the Severn Valley! And the milk tank is good, I agree, so thanks for drawing it to our attention.

Brian

The SVR Wiki (which seems well maintained and up to date) says not: GWR 1450 - SVR Wiki.

The owners have taken it to the Flour Mill in the Forest of Dean, though it's not mentioned on their site.

Adam

 

[NIDGE D1022]

Hi Brian, would you mind if I shared your Padd / Old Oak area photos over on the Old Oak facebook group please, with full credit of course? There are still a lot of the old hands on there who will be interested in seeing them.

Cheers, Nidge.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks again, Adam. Duly added to the details as an Edit.

Nidge - I'll send you a PM.

Here's some more of the many attached to "The West Countryman".

60022 taking water at Salisbury.

Edit: Location now confirmed as Westbury.














1450 again at Tiverton Junction.





60022 at Tiverton Junction.





1421 inside the shed at Tiverton Junction, shorn of smokebox number plate but still carrying an 83C Exeter/Tiverton shed plate. It was allocated there in November 1962 and then to Gloucester Barnwood in November 1963. (BR Database). It was withdrawn at the end of December 1963 It went to Bird's at Newport where it was scrapped by the end of May 1964. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[AJC]

Surely the photos of 60022 show her taking water at Westbury rather that Salisbury (GW lower quads and the overbridge were certainly not features of Salisbury station platforms). This seems to be taken from roughly the same spot:

https://flic.kr/p/dPgHnx

Adam

 

[Dan Randall]

Surely the photos of 60022 show her taking water at Westbury rather that Salisbury (GW lower quads and the overbridge were certainly not features of Salisbury station platforms).

Adam

Agreed - I’d say that was definitely Westbury.


Regards

Dan