7mm The Derby Line - Rolling Stock

[P A D]

Very nice Tony,
I'm not sure about the cleats either side of the safety valves. Do you have a photo or drawing that shows them? They do not appear to be on 2500, but of course that means nothing.

As to the fire iron brackets, I already realised that I got the rear one wrong on mine, as I spotted the 3P has the same set up and cross checked. My interpretation is that the side pieces are round with circles on the top, but I'll copy what you've done to make them and then file them as near round as I can before fitting. I may change them on the 4P but we'll see.


Seeing the nice work on your mudhole covers prompted me to have a look at mine. Clearly the rear one is lower than the forward one on the right hand side. It's the same on the other side so I'll definitely be correcting that. How did I not see that before now! The overhang of the running plate at the front that you pointed out also needs attention, but that's more difficult.


Have you decided how to go with the boiler, fixed or detachable? To be honest, it's a real pain having the tank straps fastened to the boiler, in getting them secure enough so that the least knock does not knock them off, when handling the boiler off the loco. At the minute, I'm still going for a detachable boiler on the 3P, but if it gets to be a pain, I may say sod it and solder the oiled in place and let the painter work for living. On the 4P, I dont think you can get the boiler out if the stays are fixed to the tank. At least not without leaving a visible gap between the ends of the stays and the boiler and firebox, but you may have a cunning plan as you do with the cab roof!
Cheers,
Peter

 

[dibateg]

Peter - I couldn't find a decent photo of a 4MT tank around the safety valve area, so reasoned that Stanier locos would be similar and copied an 8F arrangement from one of the Wild Swan books.

The holes for the mudhole cover didn't seem to be in the right places at all, so I ignored them and estimated from photos. I think the boiler will be permanently attached. I've done it that way on my other tank locos, and I think spraying from underneath will reach enough tucked away areas on the tanks and boiler. Those stays will be tricky enough with making them detachable!

I'm still thinking the cab roof through at the moment before taking to a saw...

Regards
Tony

 

[P A D]

Hi Tony,
Soldering the boiler is probably the best way. I lost count of the number of times I bent one of the stays or knocked one off. As to pushing envelopes, you've been pushing mine since I first came across the Derby Line on RMW, and there are several other builders on here who push more envelopes than I've had hot dinners!

On the 3P, I've gone for marking the cladding line in the flat and punching rivets rather than drilling and adding small rivets. Easier , just as effective and the scribed line is not deep enough to bend when rolling the boiler. I have a number of GA drawings for the 3P and there are no cleats on the middle firebox band, so logically the 4P would be the same. Or would it????

Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

Just realised comparison with the 3P is spurious, as it doesn't have a middle band on the fire box.

 

[Dave Holt]

Spent some time, yesterday, looking through books for photos showing the firebox top on these tanks. I found one or two elevated front three quarter shots but the firebox detail isn't too clear. That said, I couldn't see any prominent features like the top cleats on your model. I later watched a DVD of some Cam Camwell film in the NW of England and there was a great elevated shot of A Stanier 2-6-4, south of Penrith. It's a panned shot as the loco passes by and I really couldn't make out any cleats on the middle band.
However, as you say, cleats were used on 8F's and also Black Fives, so one might expect some consistency in approach.
Dave.

 

[Dave Holt]

This is the best I could find. Not entirely clear, but I can't detect any obvious cleats. If there is something there, it's very small and not as prominent as the cleats fitted to the model. What I think is visible (and in other photos) are the bottom flanges and bolts holding the relief valves to the firebox crown.
Original photo by Jim Davenport and published by Foxline.


Dave.

 

[P A D]

Hi Dave,
After looking at all my reference photos and scouring the internet, I've come to the conclusion that the cleats were probably not fitted. I looked at Fairburn tanks and I could not see any on those either. From my point of view I'm happy that mine does not have them, but of course Tony will make his own choice.
Cheers,
Peter

 

[dibateg]

Another decision to take.... I'll leave them on for the moment, but thanks for your research, they will be easy enough to take off before its painted. I wonder how they were secured without them?

I've been working on my cab roof solution....

Regards
Tony

 

[Dave Holt]

Another decision to take.... I wonder how they were secured without them?


Tony

Countersunk screws into the crinoline bars.
Dave.

 

[P A D]

Dave,
One assumes that the cladding would go on before the tanks were in place, so maybe there's a cleat either side of the firebox out of sight ???

Tony,
Whatever cunning plan you have for the roof, if it's a good one then it will be duly copied on the 3P. As you know I used tiny magnets on my 4P, but they are only a temporary measure until after painting, when it will be epoxied.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Dave Holt]

Oops, should have said set screws. Cladding only 16 SWG thick couldn't accommodate the head of a countersunk screw.

Peter,
On our loco (35006), although the boiler bands have cleats (on the bottom centreline), those on the firebox just have hex headed set screws through the band and the cladding (2 Layers, overlapping under the bands) into the crinolines. As the sheets are pre-formed to the shape of the firebox crinolines, there's no need to pull them round, like on the boiler barrel, and a set of screws is quite sufficient. On a Belpaire firebox, the tension from cleats would tend to straighten the bands on the concave section on the lower firebox, so screws would be required anyway.
The Fowler 2-6-4 tank does have cleats on the firebox bands, together with a mix of hex headed and domed slotted screws. On these locos, the middle band is well clear of the relief valves, unlike the Stanier locos.

Dave.

 

[dibateg]

I can now reveal the method of fitting the cab roof...……………….

Tank engines are always a problem, wires down the corners of the cab, magnets, clips, tubes and wire pins along the eaves. Not always satisfactory. I remembered a method I used on the J94. There are some handy rainstrips along the roof, they make ideal locations to hide the join.

After thinking about it for a day or two, the roof was cut in to three sections with a craft knife. The etched rainstrips were filed back and 2x1 angle soldered to the remaining part of etch in a position to leave a small rebate of just under a mill underneath for the central section of the roof to clip in to. You can just about see it in the photo. The roof is far too wide for the cab in any case, so there is plenty of material.

The lower parts of the roof can then be soldered in to position and horrible gaps along the tops of the cab sides can be avoided. The central section is carefully trimmed to fit so that it can be sprung in to place and be an exact fit. I needed to take off just over a mill.


I'm pretty happy with that, there's still some soldering and tidying up to do.

 

[P A D]

Hi Tony,
Definitely a cunning plan!
Cheers,
Peter

 

[freelance7]

Tony,
I like it, a brilliant idea. Will file that away for future use.

Paul

 

[P A D]

Hi Tony,
I see you have another cracking build on the go, albeit Great Western, but what's happening with the Stanier 4P. I need you to finish it so I can see if I need to correct anything else on mine before it goes for painting. I've sorted the running plate and will change the mudhole covers and use you roof fixing method, but unfortunately I've got the boiler slightly low at the joint with the firebox. I thought I'd corrected that during the build but was confusing it with the Great Central 4-4-0 which had the same problem. Unfortunately I'll have to live with the boiler joint and curse you forever for mentioning it in your build.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

PS. I'll ask Warren to put some thick lining on the first boiler band!

 

[dibateg]

Hi Peter -
I needed to get the Hall build out of the way before the end of the financial year, then its' back to the Stanier...

It shouldn't take too long I hope....

Regards
Tony

 

[P A D]

Hi Tony,
Of course, commission builds take priority over hobby builds.
I'm only joking in any case.
Cheers,
Peter

 

[dibateg]

I'm back on the tank, whilst the Hall is awaiting parts.


I elected to use Griffin castings for the lubricators. They are a lot easier to make up now that fine tube is supplied to represent the outlets. I also found the castings easier to drill - they didn't seem as hard as previous ones. I still managed to make a cockup, after putting them on, I decided they didn't look quite right. On the prototype, they sit on a spacer or plinth above the running plate. So with a hot iron I levered them off the running plate, and inserted some spacers I cut out from some 1mm brass plate and soldered them back in place....messy. The feed pipes are made from 0.5mm copper wire, stretched carefully to reduce it to about 0.44mm. They are untidy, like the prototype, and because I've been mucking around with them.. They are not soldered in to the tubes.

 

[dibateg]

I remembered that Laurie Griffin does some tank stays for the Ivatt, so I bought a set of these. Unfortunately they are all the same length and slightly too long for the Stanier, so using a piercing saw I cut the arms off the bases. Soldered the bases to the tank top and drilled them through to take some brass wire that would then receive the shortened and drilled arm which had the flange at the boiler end carefully shaped to match the taper.