simond
Western Thunderer
I think skittle predated ten pin bowling by a few centuries…
TFW’s workshop
- Thread starter Tim Watson
- Start date
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Perish the thought.... it would be akin to travelling back three hundred years
. American English is archaic English (17th/18th Century) and archaic English words and terms remain in use today. Being isolated, the language didn't evolve as quickly as English English (being closer to Europe and the European Age of Reason (1685-1815) and other rapid industrial and cultural developments/revolutions, etc, etc). The study of languages evolving through the centuries is an interesting subject in it's own right.
We've over three hundred years head start
.
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
Not much to show with this post, but the front running plate has now been soldered to the brass core. As before, I used chemical blacking to ensure that the frames and piano front do not become irretrievably fixed in place. The front body fixing screw was also blacked and screwed into place to prevent the thread from filling with solder. The individual components were tinned with solder, the steel fluxed using a special steel flux which I sourced from Germany.
The components were held in place using ceramic blocks and miniature towel clips whilst the ERSA soldering station was cranked up to 450 deg C and applied to the steel plate with plenty of flux.
The flux is quite acidic and so after soldering the whole assembly was boiled in a saucepan of water for five minutes (don’t do this if you have white metal or low melting point solder!).
Next job will be the second running plate and reversing mechanism.
Tim
The components were held in place using ceramic blocks and miniature towel clips whilst the ERSA soldering station was cranked up to 450 deg C and applied to the steel plate with plenty of flux.
The flux is quite acidic and so after soldering the whole assembly was boiled in a saucepan of water for five minutes (don’t do this if you have white metal or low melting point solder!).
Next job will be the second running plate and reversing mechanism.
Tim
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
Over the last couple of days I’ve been making some of the between-the-frames parts for the Raven 4-6-2 class. These engines were fitted with steam reverse when new and a light-coloured plate was visible on the drivers’ (RH) side: this was the cover for a travel-limiting lever. On both sides, the balance weight on the weigh shaft was visible just in front of the splashers in full forward gear. All of this work will scarcely be visible, but might catch the eye when painted.
It took a while to work out the mechanism at the top end, but zooming in on the GA helped:
Blue balance weight
Red lifting arm
Green limiter arm
Yellow backing plate.
Blue balance weight
Red lifting arms and weigh shaft.
The lifting arms and balance weights were made as one piece, silver soldered together and then separated.
The trunnions that support the weigh shaft were reamed out 16BA nuts soft soldered to the inside of the frames. A hole was drilled on one side (where the cover plate is fixed) and that was used to align the nut on the other side, which was stabilised with a drill shank whilst soldering. These are much better than cocktail sticks as they don’t burn, fit precisely and will not take soft solder.
The cover plate was soldered on being made from a scrap of NS etch, but with a handle to hold it in place whilst soldering, it was also rebated on the back edge to aid location. The sacrificial handle was then twisted / cut off.
The lifting arm for the inside cylinder valve gear was made from NS CG rail and notched so that it could be clipped into place.
Soldering it onto the shaft was aided by burying the lift link into a charcoal block to hold it whilst the tinned components were quickly heated with a hot iron and plenty of flux. The long handle was subsequently removed by twisting it off.
The whole assembly really doesn’t show up that much, but will when painted - probably vermillion for the shaft and weights.
The question, is, what was the colour of the limiter backing plate?
I suspect at least vermillion. What colour were NER engines between the frames? Answers on a postcard…
Tim
It took a while to work out the mechanism at the top end, but zooming in on the GA helped:
Blue balance weight
Red lifting arm
Green limiter arm
Yellow backing plate.
Blue balance weight
Red lifting arms and weigh shaft.
The lifting arms and balance weights were made as one piece, silver soldered together and then separated.
The trunnions that support the weigh shaft were reamed out 16BA nuts soft soldered to the inside of the frames. A hole was drilled on one side (where the cover plate is fixed) and that was used to align the nut on the other side, which was stabilised with a drill shank whilst soldering. These are much better than cocktail sticks as they don’t burn, fit precisely and will not take soft solder.
The cover plate was soldered on being made from a scrap of NS etch, but with a handle to hold it in place whilst soldering, it was also rebated on the back edge to aid location. The sacrificial handle was then twisted / cut off.
The lifting arm for the inside cylinder valve gear was made from NS CG rail and notched so that it could be clipped into place.
Soldering it onto the shaft was aided by burying the lift link into a charcoal block to hold it whilst the tinned components were quickly heated with a hot iron and plenty of flux. The long handle was subsequently removed by twisting it off.
The whole assembly really doesn’t show up that much, but will when painted - probably vermillion for the shaft and weights.
The question, is, what was the colour of the limiter backing plate?
I suspect at least vermillion. What colour were NER engines between the frames? Answers on a postcard…
Tim
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
I have spent a very few hours on the easy conversion of the Sonic Models J50 to FS. This photo shows the end result which, quite frankly, is not greatly different to the original.
The wheel profile is very fine, as is often the way with modern N gauge. However the flanges, whilst not deep are too thick for FS standards. The individual wheels were mounted in a step collet and the backs of the flanges thinned down. The TC drill stub in the tailstock helped to make sure the wheel didn’t fly out by steadying it.
The reduction in flange thickness can be seen here. The wheels are interesting in that they consist of a brass casting for the rim and a few of the back spokes of the wheel and stub axle which is 3mm diameter and acts as the bearing surface running in phosphor bronze bearings. The front spokes of the wheel are plastic and bored 1.1mm for a plain steel axle.
The wheels were then mounted in a 3mm collet and a little bit removed from the front face to narrow the tread (I didn’t take a picture of this procedure). The wheels were then chemically blackened.
The wheels + 10-20 thou black styrene washer and then bearings were re-mounted on the axles at the wider FS back to back measurement and quartered by eye. The washers were to reduce some of the increased side play with an increased thickness needed on the back wheels where the steps and plumbing become rather close. Even so, these benefit from a bit of paring away with a sharp scalpel blade.
The coupling rods are simply held in place with tight fitting pins and are commendably thin. A few strokes with a file improved them further by removing the etch cusp and reducing them a little further.
The end result is a very easily converted loco. All of the operations I have done could be undertaken with a simple lathe - even a mounted drill and sharp files - as there is no interference with wheel concentricity. The wheels are slightly chunkier than the fine scale standard but more than acceptable on a large layout like Copenhagen Fields. I am looking forward to more superb engines from this source!
Tim
The wheel profile is very fine, as is often the way with modern N gauge. However the flanges, whilst not deep are too thick for FS standards. The individual wheels were mounted in a step collet and the backs of the flanges thinned down. The TC drill stub in the tailstock helped to make sure the wheel didn’t fly out by steadying it.
The reduction in flange thickness can be seen here. The wheels are interesting in that they consist of a brass casting for the rim and a few of the back spokes of the wheel and stub axle which is 3mm diameter and acts as the bearing surface running in phosphor bronze bearings. The front spokes of the wheel are plastic and bored 1.1mm for a plain steel axle.
The wheels were then mounted in a 3mm collet and a little bit removed from the front face to narrow the tread (I didn’t take a picture of this procedure). The wheels were then chemically blackened.
The wheels + 10-20 thou black styrene washer and then bearings were re-mounted on the axles at the wider FS back to back measurement and quartered by eye. The washers were to reduce some of the increased side play with an increased thickness needed on the back wheels where the steps and plumbing become rather close. Even so, these benefit from a bit of paring away with a sharp scalpel blade.
The coupling rods are simply held in place with tight fitting pins and are commendably thin. A few strokes with a file improved them further by removing the etch cusp and reducing them a little further.
The end result is a very easily converted loco. All of the operations I have done could be undertaken with a simple lathe - even a mounted drill and sharp files - as there is no interference with wheel concentricity. The wheels are slightly chunkier than the fine scale standard but more than acceptable on a large layout like Copenhagen Fields. I am looking forward to more superb engines from this source!
Tim
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Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
The question, is, what was the colour of the limiter backing plate?
I suspect at least vermillion. What colour were NER engines between the frames? Answers on a postcard…
I don't know if this is of any use. A photo of the centrespread in a book I have 'Our Home Railways' North Eastern Railway (published 1911). Therefore it will be contemporary but not for post WWI - not sure whether NER simplified their livery at this time like the SECR).
Although not a Raven Pacific it may give an idea of how the NER livery was applied to passenger tender locos. Between the frames they may have followed standard railway practice of the period and could well be red.
Joe's Garage
Western Thunderer
This is an interesting conversion Tim, which is a very tempting introduction to 2mm FS.
Thank you for posting this and yes I agree it is a lovely model.
All the best
Julian
Thank you for posting this and yes I agree it is a lovely model.
All the best
Julian
tomburnham
Member
"What colour were NER engines between the frames? Answers on a postcard…"
Tim,
Whilst I can't help with the colour of the backing plate an instruction recorded in the 'General Orders' book kept at Gateshead Works and dated 29 June 1904 requires the "Inside of all engine frames to be painted vermillion".
Tom.
Tim,
Whilst I can't help with the colour of the backing plate an instruction recorded in the 'General Orders' book kept at Gateshead Works and dated 29 June 1904 requires the "Inside of all engine frames to be painted vermillion".
Tom.
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
I have been working on an old timer today - the GNR J13 that Mark Fielder made from an old Beaver N gauge kit. It trundled around Copenhagen Fields for hundreds of miles, but ‘failed to proceed’ a few shows ago. The chassis is a heavily worn Graham Farish 57XX block, fitted with the late Neil Ballantine’s plastic moulded fine-scale replacements and a Maxon motor with 1:4 gear box, driving the original worm set. However, it is the coupling rods that have worn the most.
The holes had worn to be at least 50% bigger than they should be. They were replaced by a new set made from 2mm Scale Association etches.
What is quite remarkable is that the new rods fitted without any adjustment. The engine now trundles up and down the test track with a slight ambling gait, but then it always has.
It will be good to have a work horse back in the traces for our next show at the NEC in November. Attention is now turned to making the York Road station tube platform and hopefully another loop on the down goods line.
Tim
The holes had worn to be at least 50% bigger than they should be. They were replaced by a new set made from 2mm Scale Association etches.
What is quite remarkable is that the new rods fitted without any adjustment. The engine now trundles up and down the test track with a slight ambling gait, but then it always has.
It will be good to have a work horse back in the traces for our next show at the NEC in November. Attention is now turned to making the York Road station tube platform and hopefully another loop on the down goods line.
Tim
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
As promised, construction has begun on the York Road tube platforms baseboard. This photo shows the board just resting in front of the tube station: in its final form it will be below and centred on the lift shafts.
The prototype track plan (courtesy LT Museum) was printed to size and stuck to some 4mm ply. This was then tried for position on the main layout and fixing hole positions determined.
The ply top was then framed with 12x21mm pine strip wood screwed & glued in place. An oak block was incorporated at the end where the next board joins on: decent wood is essential for holding baseboard joiners in a repeatable position.
This was left overnight for the glue to set and then a lower skin of 4mm ply screwed and glued onto the pine wood frame. This I beam and stressed skin design makes the whole construction immensely rigid and pretty lightweight.
The track base will be 46mm below the underside of the layout with a spacing rib 75mm deep fixed to the back edge. Quite interesting really that this is the penultimate baseboard to be built for CF.
The planning of the station platform itself is well advanced with laser cut ribs and completely accurate tile artwork already for fitting.
Tim
The prototype track plan (courtesy LT Museum) was printed to size and stuck to some 4mm ply. This was then tried for position on the main layout and fixing hole positions determined.
The ply top was then framed with 12x21mm pine strip wood screwed & glued in place. An oak block was incorporated at the end where the next board joins on: decent wood is essential for holding baseboard joiners in a repeatable position.
This was left overnight for the glue to set and then a lower skin of 4mm ply screwed and glued onto the pine wood frame. This I beam and stressed skin design makes the whole construction immensely rigid and pretty lightweight.
The track base will be 46mm below the underside of the layout with a spacing rib 75mm deep fixed to the back edge. Quite interesting really that this is the penultimate baseboard to be built for CF.
The planning of the station platform itself is well advanced with laser cut ribs and completely accurate tile artwork already for fitting.
Tim
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Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
And now for something a little bit different. When CF was last being erected Justin Colson took a few pictures of the various stages involved for setting up the main ring of baseboards. I don’t think anyone has shown how layouts get assembled on RMWeb, and if they have, it is very unlikely that they are as complex as CF. Many of you will have seen all this happening at shows; please forgive me if it’s a bit boring. So here goes, with a few comments along the way.
The first part of the layout to be made was the north end and that is where setting up begins. There are four fiddle yard boards that get bolted together as a ‘C’ laying on their side. The leg boxes that these sit on can be seen in the foreground, the redlines show the baseboard joints.
This whole assembly is lifted onto the leg boxes which are set out at the correct distance using a length of string as a gauge (at Keen House there are marks on the floor.) The leg boxes also act as storage containers and have levelling feet at the bottom.
Here, Simon Humphries is demonstrating that all bolts are equal but some are more equal than others, with Rob Stewart looking on whimsically. Very occasionally a longer bolt will be needed in a particular joint - these ought to be marked - but where’s the fun in that?
The two front Holloway Bank boards are removed from their case and bolted together, whilst resting on their sides on the floor. Our 10mm bolts are a precise fit in 8” steel tubes in each board, ensuring reasonably reliable alignment and strength. The direction the bolt is inserted can be seen by the blue arrow. The second bolt is on the floor (green circle).
The whole of the HB front is then lifted onto the open gate legs and two bolts inserted at each end from underneath. At the south end the bolts both go in the same direction.
At the north end they go in opposite directions. Our next job will be to mark up bolt direction on the layout underside. Getting these bolts in place can be quite a struggle because the floor may not be level or flat.
Once the first ring is set up, the gates are taken away from supporting the layout and it is then precisely levelled, using a bespoke spirit level on known reference marks.
Once these four feet are adjusted to make the boards absolutely level, then the gate legs are moved back under the layout to give more support, taking up the level with their own feet (yellow arrow).
The next stage is to put in place the massive Belle Isle board. This travels in its own case and is quite tricky to handle. It also travels with the NLR link board which can be seen in the top left of the box. In order to lift it out of the box there is a massive truncheon-like rod which is screwed firmly into the framework (white arrow - it also has other ruder names) as well as a steel ‘bale hook’ that engages with a hole in the RH baseboard end. Two individuals then lift the board vertically in the box whilst another two move the box away from the board. It is then rested on its back face awaiting assembly.
Prior to lifting into place the three baseboard bolts and nut closers are laid out on the floor (green circles) whilst the fixing holes are show with blue arrows. For the first ten years of construction, this was more or less the full extent of the layout.
The longitudinal position of the leg box supporting this board is located by using the important piece of string with marks on it. A team of three-four people then lift this board into place, resting a lip onto the northern boards. Meanwhile, a brave soul goes underneath and slips in the long steel bolts and does up the nut closers. It is then levelled, paying attention to its level in the L & R as well as front to back directions.
It is important to check out the central baseboard joint for all alignments on the six GNR lines that cross it as well as the hidden NLR link board. Various ‘persuading’ instruments may be called in to play.
TBC
Tim
The first part of the layout to be made was the north end and that is where setting up begins. There are four fiddle yard boards that get bolted together as a ‘C’ laying on their side. The leg boxes that these sit on can be seen in the foreground, the redlines show the baseboard joints.
This whole assembly is lifted onto the leg boxes which are set out at the correct distance using a length of string as a gauge (at Keen House there are marks on the floor.) The leg boxes also act as storage containers and have levelling feet at the bottom.
Here, Simon Humphries is demonstrating that all bolts are equal but some are more equal than others, with Rob Stewart looking on whimsically. Very occasionally a longer bolt will be needed in a particular joint - these ought to be marked - but where’s the fun in that?
The two front Holloway Bank boards are removed from their case and bolted together, whilst resting on their sides on the floor. Our 10mm bolts are a precise fit in 8” steel tubes in each board, ensuring reasonably reliable alignment and strength. The direction the bolt is inserted can be seen by the blue arrow. The second bolt is on the floor (green circle).
The whole of the HB front is then lifted onto the open gate legs and two bolts inserted at each end from underneath. At the south end the bolts both go in the same direction.
At the north end they go in opposite directions. Our next job will be to mark up bolt direction on the layout underside. Getting these bolts in place can be quite a struggle because the floor may not be level or flat.
Once the first ring is set up, the gates are taken away from supporting the layout and it is then precisely levelled, using a bespoke spirit level on known reference marks.
Once these four feet are adjusted to make the boards absolutely level, then the gate legs are moved back under the layout to give more support, taking up the level with their own feet (yellow arrow).
The next stage is to put in place the massive Belle Isle board. This travels in its own case and is quite tricky to handle. It also travels with the NLR link board which can be seen in the top left of the box. In order to lift it out of the box there is a massive truncheon-like rod which is screwed firmly into the framework (white arrow - it also has other ruder names) as well as a steel ‘bale hook’ that engages with a hole in the RH baseboard end. Two individuals then lift the board vertically in the box whilst another two move the box away from the board. It is then rested on its back face awaiting assembly.
Prior to lifting into place the three baseboard bolts and nut closers are laid out on the floor (green circles) whilst the fixing holes are show with blue arrows. For the first ten years of construction, this was more or less the full extent of the layout.
The longitudinal position of the leg box supporting this board is located by using the important piece of string with marks on it. A team of three-four people then lift this board into place, resting a lip onto the northern boards. Meanwhile, a brave soul goes underneath and slips in the long steel bolts and does up the nut closers. It is then levelled, paying attention to its level in the L & R as well as front to back directions.
It is important to check out the central baseboard joint for all alignments on the six GNR lines that cross it as well as the hidden NLR link board. Various ‘persuading’ instruments may be called in to play.
TBC
Tim
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
The pace of assembly now accelerates as the Belle Isle south board is daisy-chained on to the big board. This is just about supported by another leg box and fold-out gate leg. Again it is checked for level, against known reference points.
Going round the corner (into KX) we have the Sopwith board. Why that name? Well it looks like the tail plane of a Sopwith Camel aeroplane. It is bolted in two directions to the Belle Isle south board.
Levelling is, as always, critical.
The final behemoth baseboard that completes the ring is the 10’ x 2’ Big Fiddle Yard board. This is a four person lift and slips in north end first and then the south. There are precision joiners at the north end and it’s on the ‘to-do’ list for the south.
The final operational boards to be inserted are the NLR link board (and fiddle yard) and the KX Goods board which covers a large area and locks into place next to the NLR viaduct and has three precision dowel bolts locating it to the BFB. The ruler in this view shows a 6’ length for scale.
So there we have it. The shear size of CF makes it essential that it is assembled in a totally reliable and reproducible way. It is quite hard work to set up (MRC membership is cheaper than a gym) and maybe it’s now obvious why we only attend two shows a year. Of course, this is only about 2/3rds of the story as all the scenic sections, back scenes, ‘Toblerone’ lighting proscenium, barriers and other add-ons such as the tube are there to complete the scene.
Apologies for the exceedingly long posts and a self-administered pat on the back for anyone who got to the end…
Tim
Going round the corner (into KX) we have the Sopwith board. Why that name? Well it looks like the tail plane of a Sopwith Camel aeroplane. It is bolted in two directions to the Belle Isle south board.
Levelling is, as always, critical.
The final behemoth baseboard that completes the ring is the 10’ x 2’ Big Fiddle Yard board. This is a four person lift and slips in north end first and then the south. There are precision joiners at the north end and it’s on the ‘to-do’ list for the south.
The final operational boards to be inserted are the NLR link board (and fiddle yard) and the KX Goods board which covers a large area and locks into place next to the NLR viaduct and has three precision dowel bolts locating it to the BFB. The ruler in this view shows a 6’ length for scale.
So there we have it. The shear size of CF makes it essential that it is assembled in a totally reliable and reproducible way. It is quite hard work to set up (MRC membership is cheaper than a gym) and maybe it’s now obvious why we only attend two shows a year. Of course, this is only about 2/3rds of the story as all the scenic sections, back scenes, ‘Toblerone’ lighting proscenium, barriers and other add-ons such as the tube are there to complete the scene.
Apologies for the exceedingly long posts and a self-administered pat on the back for anyone who got to the end…
Tim
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Great stuff, Tim, and it gives a real insight in to how much effort goes in to exhibiting these large exhibition layouts.
However, would it not be easier to invest in half a dozen left handed sky hooks (well you may need a few right handed ones as well) so you could level the layout before you put the supporting structures underneath?
Brian
However, would it not be easier to invest in half a dozen left handed sky hooks (well you may need a few right handed ones as well) so you could level the layout before you put the supporting structures underneath?
Brian
garethashenden
Western Thunderer
Assembling CF always felt like an event. Glad to have been able to do it a few times!
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
You know you are always welcome with the layout Gareth. We keep striving to streamline the whole process and make it simpler and clearer with labels and continuous reduction in components. It now takes 5hr to set up and 1.5hr to take down - with a full crew of eight.
Tim
Tim
Joe's Garage
Western Thunderer
That is a very interesting insight to the assembly of CF Tim. Some very useful suggestions even for smaller layouts.
Thank you for sharing
Julian
Thank you for sharing
Julian