Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
Simon
Brilliant! thanks for doing that.
regards
Mike
Brilliant! thanks for doing that.
regards
Mike
Mike G's Workspace.
- Thread starter Mike Garwood
- Start date
SimonT
Western Thunderer
My pleasure Mike. Mick's build is on here somewhere.
Try
Try
7mm - Finney7 51XX
Well this is a first for me, a thread in the WR Section of WT. I'm usually confined to Area 51 :D For the upcoming re-release of some of the Martin Finney GWR range I volunteered myself to construct one of his 51XX Large Prairie tanks. I do like the look of these big tank engines and after the...
www.westernthunder.co.uk
Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
So this is a bit late after the fact. On Tuesday last I was invited to meet of like minded modelers at the home of Barrow Road. Other than the three usual witches we were joined by Dave Holt and David Clark.
David brought with him some recent conversions to run in. A ROD, 61xx and a very small tank engine - a Peckett - which had been converted by Bernie Baker. All benefited from a good few laps of Barrow Road to iron out tight spots and loosen up the mechanisms.
Mr Holt brought with him a number of kit built locos. Std cl 2 tank, Std cl 5, Caprotti Black 5 and a number of beautifully finished LNWR coaches. He also brought with him, his beautiful Royal Scot - still waiting to be painted - this is a model of real beauty. Real thought and craftsmanship has gone into the construction, along with a lot of love.
The underside of the engine is even more amazing and shows the working cylinders...plus all the pipework runs. Amazing work!
There are numerous videos kicking around on my Utube channel and on Robin Whittles channel. Robin has some lovely shots of the Std 5 and the Cap Blk 5. Well worth viewing in my opinion.
We managed to fill both roads with P4 engines and this may be the biggest collection of such gauged engines...unless you know otherwise?
An absolutely brilliant day with great company. Thank you to Robin for the invitation and to Messrs Clark and Holt for providing the entertainment. And thanks to Morgan for all the shunting around of the stock to accommodate these engines.
Let's not leave it so long next time. It really was a very special experience.
Stay safe
Mike.
David brought with him some recent conversions to run in. A ROD, 61xx and a very small tank engine - a Peckett - which had been converted by Bernie Baker. All benefited from a good few laps of Barrow Road to iron out tight spots and loosen up the mechanisms.
Mr Holt brought with him a number of kit built locos. Std cl 2 tank, Std cl 5, Caprotti Black 5 and a number of beautifully finished LNWR coaches. He also brought with him, his beautiful Royal Scot - still waiting to be painted - this is a model of real beauty. Real thought and craftsmanship has gone into the construction, along with a lot of love.
The underside of the engine is even more amazing and shows the working cylinders...plus all the pipework runs. Amazing work!
There are numerous videos kicking around on my Utube channel and on Robin Whittles channel. Robin has some lovely shots of the Std 5 and the Cap Blk 5. Well worth viewing in my opinion.
We managed to fill both roads with P4 engines and this may be the biggest collection of such gauged engines...unless you know otherwise?
An absolutely brilliant day with great company. Thank you to Robin for the invitation and to Messrs Clark and Holt for providing the entertainment. And thanks to Morgan for all the shunting around of the stock to accommodate these engines.
Let's not leave it so long next time. It really was a very special experience.
Stay safe
Mike.
Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
Back to the job at hand...
I've finished the cylinders. I say finished, but I have yet to add the G hangers. I'm going to have to remove more material within these to get them to fit the slide bars. If they were fitted as is, the slippers jam in the slide bars. The connecting rods have also been completed - including fitment of the pistons. I am more than happy with the way they glide.
I have to say the way the cylinders go together is really well thought out...I have only one observation. When the cylinder wrapper goes on, it doesn't start from the top of the cylinders. There's a very nice gap at the top of the cylinder etch where the cylinder wrap fits and then can be pulled down and you can seam bit by bit. And that's when you find out that isn't the right starting point!
At one end of the cylinder wrap etch are three holes for the drain cocks, these line up with the bottom of the slide bars and then you fold to the top...and this is when you find out that the wrap doesn't go to the top of the cylinders!! I'm assuming that the footplate hides this. I wasn't going to take the chance, so I decided to fit some brass shim to fill the gap. This shim is very, very thin.
Onto the boiler...usual problems of getting the former's to stay in place while you fit them. But you get there in the end, extremely frustrating. But worth the effort. And I've just realised (having examined my own photo) that I've fitted the wrong part to the front of the smokebox. DOH!!
Sort that out tomorrow.
The other problem on the horizon is the boiler. This is the spidery looking thing at the back left of this photo. A former has to be fitted between the 'legs' and another half sized etch goes at the back.
The smokebox and boiler screw together (!!) and the firebox and boiler are soldered together using wire and hole method. If I could do 3d CAD work this is definitely a candidate for this type of thing and get the whole thing printed as one.
Once the boiler is completed, I think it's time to tackle putting the skin onto the cage - so to speak. The front pony looks really complicated and I need to brace myself before I tackle that. All in all, progress at a snails pace.
Apologies for the quality of the photo...it looked way better on my phone.
Stay safe
Mike
I've finished the cylinders. I say finished, but I have yet to add the G hangers. I'm going to have to remove more material within these to get them to fit the slide bars. If they were fitted as is, the slippers jam in the slide bars. The connecting rods have also been completed - including fitment of the pistons. I am more than happy with the way they glide.
I have to say the way the cylinders go together is really well thought out...I have only one observation. When the cylinder wrapper goes on, it doesn't start from the top of the cylinders. There's a very nice gap at the top of the cylinder etch where the cylinder wrap fits and then can be pulled down and you can seam bit by bit. And that's when you find out that isn't the right starting point!
At one end of the cylinder wrap etch are three holes for the drain cocks, these line up with the bottom of the slide bars and then you fold to the top...and this is when you find out that the wrap doesn't go to the top of the cylinders!! I'm assuming that the footplate hides this. I wasn't going to take the chance, so I decided to fit some brass shim to fill the gap. This shim is very, very thin.
Onto the boiler...usual problems of getting the former's to stay in place while you fit them. But you get there in the end, extremely frustrating. But worth the effort. And I've just realised (having examined my own photo) that I've fitted the wrong part to the front of the smokebox. DOH!!
Sort that out tomorrow.
The other problem on the horizon is the boiler. This is the spidery looking thing at the back left of this photo. A former has to be fitted between the 'legs' and another half sized etch goes at the back.
The smokebox and boiler screw together (!!) and the firebox and boiler are soldered together using wire and hole method. If I could do 3d CAD work this is definitely a candidate for this type of thing and get the whole thing printed as one.
Once the boiler is completed, I think it's time to tackle putting the skin onto the cage - so to speak. The front pony looks really complicated and I need to brace myself before I tackle that. All in all, progress at a snails pace.
Apologies for the quality of the photo...it looked way better on my phone.
Stay safe
Mike
Nick Rogers
Western Thunderer
Morning Mike,
What a treat to start my day with!
I popped over to Brian Pearce yesterday to give him a pair of 35 year old hands and eyes to assist his 91 year old pair with some fiddly jobs. We both said we didn’t know how Mr Holt makes such fiddly valve gear so beautifully! I said I would stick to good old GWR locomotives with the odd ex LSWR one thrown in (but with no tricky valve gear!).
Lovely selection of locos on shed.
All the best,
Nick.
Nick Rogers
Western Thunderer
Keep at it, Mike.Back to the job at hand...
I've finished the cylinders. I say finished, but I have yet to add the G hangers. I'm going to have to remove more material within these to get them to fit the slide bars. If they were fitted as is, the slippers jam in the slide bars. The connecting rods have also been completed - including fitment of the pistons. I am more than happy with the way they glide.
I have to say the way the cylinders go together is really well thought out...I have only one observation. When the cylinder wrapper goes on, it doesn't start from the top of the cylinders. There's a very nice gap at the top of the cylinder etch where the cylinder wrap fits and then can be pulled down and you can seam bit by bit. And that's when you find out that isn't the right starting point!
At one end of the cylinder wrap etch are three holes for the drain cocks, these line up with the bottom of the slide bars and then you fold to the top...and this is when you find out that the wrap doesn't go to the top of the cylinders!! I'm assuming that the footplate hides this. I wasn't going to take the chance, so I decided to fit some brass shim to fill the gap. This shim is very, very thin.
Onto the boiler...usual problems of getting the former's to stay in place while you fit them. But you get there in the end, extremely frustrating. But worth the effort. And I've just realised (having examined my own photo) that I've fitted the wrong part to the front of the smokebox. DOH!!
Sort that out tomorrow.
The other problem on the horizon is the boiler. This is the spidery looking thing at the back left of this photo. A former has to be fitted between the 'legs' and another half sized etch goes at the back.
The smokebox and boiler screw together (!!) and the firebox and boiler are soldered together using wire and hole method. If I could do 3d CAD work this is definitely a candidate for this type of thing and get the whole thing printed as one.
View attachment 193755
Once the boiler is completed, I think it's time to tackle putting the skin onto the cage - so to speak. The front pony looks really complicated and I need to brace myself before I tackle that. All in all, progress at a snails pace.
Apologies for the quality of the photo...it looked way better on my phone.
Stay safe
Mike
Does look good!
All the best to you,
Nick.
Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
Hi Nick
Mr Holts models not only look beautiful, but also run beautifully. A very multi-talented modeller and a lovely fella with it.
So what were you and Mr Pearce upto?
Mike
Nick Rogers
Western Thunderer
Afternoon Mike,
Essentially, fiddling about with a Schools class chassis: a real mix of kit-built locomotive chassis (South Eastern & Finecast, I believe), with a part-scratch-built body and fully scratch-built tender. The locomotive chassis has single beam compensation, with the motor being housed in the tender with a drive shaft linking the motor and gearbox. The tender chassis is fully sprung, with Brian's own turned brass wheels, with steel tyres. A very talented chap, our Mr P. However, the valve gear is playing silly devils, so I have been helping him with the fiddly bits.
It did run beautifully until one of our past members picked it up and dropped it one club night. He did the same to one of my models - why do people do that?
Anyway, I'm also painting, lettering and weathering some SR parcel stock for him, along with some of my own SR stock. Hence the varnish question in the help area, as I don't want to muck up what I've done!
Cheers,
Nick.
Essentially, fiddling about with a Schools class chassis: a real mix of kit-built locomotive chassis (South Eastern & Finecast, I believe), with a part-scratch-built body and fully scratch-built tender. The locomotive chassis has single beam compensation, with the motor being housed in the tender with a drive shaft linking the motor and gearbox. The tender chassis is fully sprung, with Brian's own turned brass wheels, with steel tyres. A very talented chap, our Mr P. However, the valve gear is playing silly devils, so I have been helping him with the fiddly bits.
It did run beautifully until one of our past members picked it up and dropped it one club night. He did the same to one of my models - why do people do that?
Anyway, I'm also painting, lettering and weathering some SR parcel stock for him, along with some of my own SR stock. Hence the varnish question in the help area, as I don't want to muck up what I've done!
Cheers,
Nick.
Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
There is a point in every brass kit where, after a good while, all the sub assemblies start to come together and your engine really starts to take shape. Each and every kit builder will have experienced this. The kit suddenly becomes a case of fitting 'extras' to complete the model. This happened to me today.
Fortunately, we've had some rain in S. Wales and the garden fence painting crew had to take an enforced day off - shame...
So to the work bench and pick up where I left off yesterday. First thing was to rectify the mess I created yesterday. An hour and a bit and I was back where I should have been. Next was to fit the formers to the boiler - that spidery looking thing - this proved to be much easier than I anticipated. Having it bent to the near shape that was needed, it was really a case of turning it on it's end on a flat piece of board, lining up the marker on the boiler etch with the ones on the 2 formers and work my way around the circle 'dotting and dabbing' solder to hold the etch in place while making sure the former stayed flat to the board. Remember, that the smokebox and boiler are screwed together when final assembly takes place, so they have to be flush together. After I was satisfied that all the 'dotting' had the etch and former in a flush position I carefully seamed the joint. The rear joint followed the same process.
The cab floor was also fitted. I cut off the bits that I couldn't get to fit and not surprisingly the flooring fell into place. Why I just didn't do this weeks ago I have no idea!
This picture shows where I am now, everything is just resting against each other with the cab front in it's slot to hold everything in place.
The smokebox and boiler are just resting together - theres no screw holding them together. If there was and it looked like this, there'd be no update till it was sorted! My thanks to the rain for allowing me to make some really useful progress, have to say it's really encouraged me to get on with it now. I shall have to run a straight edge over the footplate to make sure that it's straight...coz it doesn't look like right from this picture.
Stay safe
Mike
Fortunately, we've had some rain in S. Wales and the garden fence painting crew had to take an enforced day off - shame...
So to the work bench and pick up where I left off yesterday. First thing was to rectify the mess I created yesterday. An hour and a bit and I was back where I should have been. Next was to fit the formers to the boiler - that spidery looking thing - this proved to be much easier than I anticipated. Having it bent to the near shape that was needed, it was really a case of turning it on it's end on a flat piece of board, lining up the marker on the boiler etch with the ones on the 2 formers and work my way around the circle 'dotting and dabbing' solder to hold the etch in place while making sure the former stayed flat to the board. Remember, that the smokebox and boiler are screwed together when final assembly takes place, so they have to be flush together. After I was satisfied that all the 'dotting' had the etch and former in a flush position I carefully seamed the joint. The rear joint followed the same process.
The cab floor was also fitted. I cut off the bits that I couldn't get to fit and not surprisingly the flooring fell into place. Why I just didn't do this weeks ago I have no idea!
This picture shows where I am now, everything is just resting against each other with the cab front in it's slot to hold everything in place.
The smokebox and boiler are just resting together - theres no screw holding them together. If there was and it looked like this, there'd be no update till it was sorted! My thanks to the rain for allowing me to make some really useful progress, have to say it's really encouraged me to get on with it now. I shall have to run a straight edge over the footplate to make sure that it's straight...coz it doesn't look like right from this picture.
Stay safe
Mike
Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
Quick update...the skeleton has flesh.
Pretty pleased with this. The roof is just perched for effect. There is some bodging to be done, as there's a slight gap at the back...about 0.5 mm. Also a slight gap at the front will need some filler. Both sides were sweated on with the soldering iron turned up to 400 degrees. Thank goodness for wide lollipop sticks.
And in more good news, my wife is off for another weekend away with her sister. Starting 14/09. So I have a deadline to get the body finished by at least 15/09...so the cellulose can come out to play while shes not here! So a few late nights ahead.
Also...the fence painting gang has been disbanded as it's finished - thank goodness.
Stay safe
Mike
Pretty pleased with this. The roof is just perched for effect. There is some bodging to be done, as there's a slight gap at the back...about 0.5 mm. Also a slight gap at the front will need some filler. Both sides were sweated on with the soldering iron turned up to 400 degrees. Thank goodness for wide lollipop sticks.
And in more good news, my wife is off for another weekend away with her sister. Starting 14/09. So I have a deadline to get the body finished by at least 15/09...so the cellulose can come out to play while shes not here! So a few late nights ahead.
Also...the fence painting gang has been disbanded as it's finished - thank goodness.
Stay safe
Mike
Bulldog3444
Active Member
I agree entirely - my own build of a large prairie has been stalled, and sitting on a shelf for 12 months - when I got to the point that having put together the various parts of the boiler I found that the smokebox didn't sit down properly on the saddle, as you can see in the picture.
I did manage to get the chassis sorted, and give it a run around DRAG's test track for an evening at Holcombe. I found the clearances all pretty tight, particularly the trailing set of drivers, and I have had to resort to some tape to prevent occasional shorting by the radial truck wheelset.
By the way, Mike, earlier in this thread you were not keen on the radial truck. I did manage to get it to work, but had to be very careful to make sure that all burrs were removed from the etch in order for the frame of the radial truck to slide laterally. I have used a fine steel wire to spring the truck for the moment, but I anticipate using a larger gauge wire after I have dismantled the chassis for painting.
I will be following your progress closely - especially as you have tackled the key next step of bending up and fixing the side tank etches. Thanks for providing a stimulus for me to get my prairie off the shelf and start tackling the issues I have been avoiding.
Ian
I did manage to get the chassis sorted, and give it a run around DRAG's test track for an evening at Holcombe. I found the clearances all pretty tight, particularly the trailing set of drivers, and I have had to resort to some tape to prevent occasional shorting by the radial truck wheelset.
By the way, Mike, earlier in this thread you were not keen on the radial truck. I did manage to get it to work, but had to be very careful to make sure that all burrs were removed from the etch in order for the frame of the radial truck to slide laterally. I have used a fine steel wire to spring the truck for the moment, but I anticipate using a larger gauge wire after I have dismantled the chassis for painting.
I will be following your progress closely - especially as you have tackled the key next step of bending up and fixing the side tank etches. Thanks for providing a stimulus for me to get my prairie off the shelf and start tackling the issues I have been avoiding.
Ian
Mike Garwood
Western Thunderer
Hi Ian
Thanks for the write up and cracking photos of your build so far. Did you have any problems with clearances at the cross-head and and first driver position?
I think you're being a little harsh on yourself. Don't forget there is a whitemetal casting that goes on the saddle for all the bolt head detail. This fits just above the snifter valve.
If you're worried about the centre line of the smokebox being parallel to the footplate, draw a pencil line using a ruler from handrail hole in the front of the cage and use the hole in the SB to line it up with. Then compare the pencil line to the top of the SB - it should be parallel both at the top of the SB and the footplate. The problem may be with the saddle etches. Even Mr Finney made mistakes, despite some brilliant design work.
In my post 409 - I showed how I achieved the bends (around the corners) with minimum effort. This method was similar to the method I used with my Mitchell 45xx. I wish now that I'd stuck to the original method. On the 45xx I used tube - of a similar diameter - soldered actually into the corners of the cage. If I'd done this on the 51xx I would not be left with gaps (0.5 to 0.75 mm) which need bodging so they don't show up. To do this on the 51xx I would have had to file back the ends of the cage so that the tube would show right thru and be in absolutely in the right place when the bend is made. But being a lazy sod I didn't do this with the result of the gaps.
I'd really encourage you to grab the bull by the testicles and have a go at the sides. I plastered the outside of the cage in solder - you will need to put the rear cage in before you do this. Then I plastered the cage in Powerflux. The advatage of using this...it doesn't run away when the model is turned up straight. Then placed the 'skin' on the beast. Made sure that at least 2 holes liked up at the cab end with the holes in the cage. Next turn the heat up on the iron and sweat the 2 pieces together from the inside of the cage. You are going to need a piece(s) of heat resistant material to press and keep the half etch side in place, either that or have pain resistant fingers
. The downside of using Powerflux is the greasy residue. Hot water and Viacal to the rescue.
I expect none of this is new to you and I may be teaching my Grandmother...if so then I'm sorry for stating the obvious.
As to the radial truck...the jury is still out, despite your observations.
Hope this helps you move forward.
Stay safe
Mike
Thanks for the write up and cracking photos of your build so far. Did you have any problems with clearances at the cross-head and and first driver position?
I think you're being a little harsh on yourself. Don't forget there is a whitemetal casting that goes on the saddle for all the bolt head detail. This fits just above the snifter valve.
If you're worried about the centre line of the smokebox being parallel to the footplate, draw a pencil line using a ruler from handrail hole in the front of the cage and use the hole in the SB to line it up with. Then compare the pencil line to the top of the SB - it should be parallel both at the top of the SB and the footplate. The problem may be with the saddle etches. Even Mr Finney made mistakes, despite some brilliant design work.
In my post 409 - I showed how I achieved the bends (around the corners) with minimum effort. This method was similar to the method I used with my Mitchell 45xx. I wish now that I'd stuck to the original method. On the 45xx I used tube - of a similar diameter - soldered actually into the corners of the cage. If I'd done this on the 51xx I would not be left with gaps (0.5 to 0.75 mm) which need bodging so they don't show up. To do this on the 51xx I would have had to file back the ends of the cage so that the tube would show right thru and be in absolutely in the right place when the bend is made. But being a lazy sod I didn't do this with the result of the gaps.
I'd really encourage you to grab the bull by the testicles and have a go at the sides. I plastered the outside of the cage in solder - you will need to put the rear cage in before you do this. Then I plastered the cage in Powerflux. The advatage of using this...it doesn't run away when the model is turned up straight. Then placed the 'skin' on the beast. Made sure that at least 2 holes liked up at the cab end with the holes in the cage. Next turn the heat up on the iron and sweat the 2 pieces together from the inside of the cage. You are going to need a piece(s) of heat resistant material to press and keep the half etch side in place, either that or have pain resistant fingers
. The downside of using Powerflux is the greasy residue. Hot water and Viacal to the rescue.I expect none of this is new to you and I may be teaching my Grandmother...if so then I'm sorry for stating the obvious.
As to the radial truck...the jury is still out, despite your observations.
Hope this helps you move forward.
Stay safe
Mike
Bulldog3444
Active Member
Thanks, Mike, for your encouragement, and the detailed explanation of how you went about putting on the riveted overlays.
With regards to the smokebox saddle, I agree that the casting covers the join, but I don't think my smokebox is quite level yet - or rather I think the rear end is being held up by being bolted to the tapered boiler section. But I will take your challenge, and have a go at it, when I can sort out a time for a concentrated modelling session.
As for the clearance between the crosshead and the leading crankpin - well yes, it is tight! I followed the usual process of incremental filing and trial until they just pass without touching. The main thing to start with is to make sure that there is no sideplay on the leading drivers.
Ian
With regards to the smokebox saddle, I agree that the casting covers the join, but I don't think my smokebox is quite level yet - or rather I think the rear end is being held up by being bolted to the tapered boiler section. But I will take your challenge, and have a go at it, when I can sort out a time for a concentrated modelling session.
As for the clearance between the crosshead and the leading crankpin - well yes, it is tight! I followed the usual process of incremental filing and trial until they just pass without touching. The main thing to start with is to make sure that there is no sideplay on the leading drivers.
Ian
Captain Kernow
Western Thunderer
I'd forgotten about that incident (it wasn't me, by the way, gentle reader!). If that happened to one of my models, I'd be preparing an invoice to the party concerned. This is also why I watch over my stuff like a hawk and have an officious sign inside all my stock boxes...
Lovely work on the prairies, both Mike and Ian, top notch work indeed.
Nick Rogers
Western Thunderer
Mmm. My Warship has never worked since then, nor has Brian's lovely Schools locomotive. Two of the driving wheels became damaged (broken spokes), which have been a pig to replace. Thankfully, Brian has a few spare Studioth wheels, but they are a pig to get off the axles.
Captain Kernow
Western Thunderer
If you would like a 'second opinion' on the Warship (I also have one converted using Alan Gibson wheels), just say the word...
Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
I have not joined a general modelling club purely because of the potential for damage by some members who have little or no appreciation of the work which goes into a kit or scratchbuilt model.
As to the type of person I refer I give this example. At one of the very early Glasgow shows held in the McClellan Galleries on Sauchihall street. I entered my first P4 scratch built tender engine into the competition. Imagine my horror when the organiser appeared carrying my model in one hand and another in the other above her head and pushing through the 5 deep crowd in front of our layout. The judges cannot decide and need to see them running was the explanation. I was not best pleased! Especially as person had carried the engine from upstairs down through the heaving masses to the wee room on the side.
The fact that I won the cup eased the pain slightly but I am extremely wary of situations where ‘lowest common denominator’ types can be members.
Ian.