7mm Mickoo's Commercial Workbench

mickoo

mickoo

Western Thunderer
david duxbury said:
Quality again Mick!
IT looks fantastic, the bottom edge is far better than the chunky resin moulding especially when you fit the pipe runs. The ripples you have encountered probably make the engine more like the prototypes after a week or two`s service;)
Dave
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That was one of the other reasons I wanted a metal side, it really makes a big difference to the pipe runs and that dropped section by the firebox.

The kit resin edges around that area are commendably thin at 1.5 mm but they do throw the pipework inboard a touch. The etch has a laminated inner strip for strength along the main section but the dropped part is just core + overlay so only 0.65 ish thick.

I agree about the ripples but they are very hard to scale and besides, modeling them is just poor cricket old sport :D
 
4

40057

Western Thunderer
Hello, Mickoo

I found your thread about a week ago and have been reading it over morning coffee most days since — as I have been this morning. So, firstly, thank you for a good, interesting read. Secondly, I am hugely impressed by your amazing workmanship. Thirdly, your completed models look wonderful.

I have noted your use of 3-D printing for components that would traditionally be cast metal. I should admit at this point to being generally technophobic and, specifically, completely ignorant about 3-D printing technology. I am definitely of the ‘it must be metal’ persuasion. But I don’t think my scepticism about 3-D printing is entirely due to my ignorance and prejudice.

My wife and I are the current custodians of a Gauge 1 locomotive bought originally by my late father-in-law’s father for his model railway. It is at least 110 years old and works perfectly. The paint is coated with 100+ years of oily dirt and a bit chipped round the edges, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the loco. It is made of tinplated steel sheet, brass and cast-iron castings. By contrast, I have seen plastic 00 gauge models made in the 1950s where, for instance, a coach was now shaped like a banana — and unusable. I accept, plastic technology has probably moved on a lot since the 1950s. Visiting a local model shop a few years ago, I was admiring the fantastic detail and paintwork on ready-to-run mass-produced N gauge models. I asked the shop owner what he thought the life expectancy was of the locomotives. ‘Ten years’, was the reply.

So, is there any information on the likely durability of 3-D printed components? Is differential expansion and contraction (compared with adjacent metal parts) going to be an issue as models are exposed to temperature variation?

I always think what matters is not whether something looks like a good idea at the time, but whether it will still look like a good idea thirty years on.

Once again, though, your modelling skills are truly brilliant.

Martin
 
Pencarrow

Pencarrow

Western Thunderer
And as for the Bulleid... Mark had to drag me away. It was simply outstanding.

IMG_20230304_141408.jpg

IMG_20230304_141451.jpg

Rays of light coming through the chimney.

Lovely to see and talk to you in person again.

(I very nearly mentioned Q1gate to Brian but decided he'd probably had enough ribbing...)
 
mickoo

mickoo

Western Thunderer
40057 said:
Hello, Mickoo

I found your thread about a week ago and have been reading it over morning coffee most days since — as I have been this morning. So, firstly, thank you for a good, interesting read. Secondly, I am hugely impressed by your amazing workmanship. Thirdly, your completed models look wonderful.

I have noted your use of 3-D printing for components that would traditionally be cast metal. I should admit at this point to being generally technophobic and, specifically, completely ignorant about 3-D printing technology. I am definitely of the ‘it must be metal’ persuasion. But I don’t think my scepticism about 3-D printing is entirely due to my ignorance and prejudice.

My wife and I are the current custodians of a Gauge 1 locomotive bought originally by my late father-in-law’s father for his model railway. It is at least 110 years old and works perfectly. The paint is coated with 100+ years of oily dirt and a bit chipped round the edges, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the loco. It is made of tinplated steel sheet, brass and cast-iron castings. By contrast, I have seen plastic 00 gauge models made in the 1950s where, for instance, a coach was now shaped like a banana — and unusable. I accept, plastic technology has probably moved on a lot since the 1950s. Visiting a local model shop a few years ago, I was admiring the fantastic detail and paintwork on ready-to-run mass-produced N gauge models. I asked the shop owner what he thought the life expectancy was of the locomotives. ‘Ten years’, was the reply.

So, is there any information on the likely durability of 3-D printed components? Is differential expansion and contraction (compared with adjacent metal parts) going to be an issue as models are exposed to temperature variation?

I always think what matters is not whether something looks like a good idea at the time, but whether it will still look like a good idea thirty years on.

Once again, though, your modelling skills are truly brilliant.

Martin
Click to expand...
Hello Martin,

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

Regarding 3D, I don't think anyone one really knows, but, some one has to be first, some one has to make the first step off the Apollo lander, some one has to be the first to fall, pick themselves up and go again.

It's a valid point and I hear it a lot from the traditional sphere of modelling, word on the street is 20 years max, but we now seem to be in an era of shortening expectations. I'm under no illusion any of my models will be around for 100 years, or even 40 if I'm honest, and if they are, I'll probably be dead and it's not a concern any more.

I understand the longevity aspect but I fear we're becoming hesitant, holding back and as such are missing out. No one can predict the future (next weeks lottery numbers are....:D) so I'm in the camp you grab what you can now by the horns and run with it, if it works, then great, if not then deal with it then (technology will have moved on anyway). Pretty much all of my 3D that may be a potential problem is removable with screws and mechanical fixings so it can be removed and replaced if required.

If you design your part correctly with a mechanical component that limits movement or warping then it shouldn't really be an issue, I suspect if that 1950's coach had a steel floor it'd be perfectly all right now.

In short I build for now or the very near future, I could have been killed in a head on collision or rolled under an HGV this afternoon driving back from Kettering, where would have all the future planning and material concerns have got me then?

I follow a lot of 3D printing social media pages and some of these guys (15 plus years, print farms with 30 plus machines and post hits in the tens of thousands) have been doing it from the early days, some have 3D prints sat on there window sill for 5-10 years or more as test pigs and these are still fine, bearing in mind that they've used resin that has a technological spec of that era and modern resins are/should be even more durable, some people get failures weeks after they've printed, partialy due to the choice of resin but also exposure times or printer set ups.

Having said all that, what's the life expectancy of all the modern RTR (let alone the massive plastic aircraft, AFV's, Sci Fi, ships kit side of the hobby) we're now seeing, 20-30 years? So is 3D really that badly behind, I've heard that some JLTRT early plastics are now becoming brittle and breaking up, I've also seen older white metal castings starting to degenerate and degrade becoming very brittle and breaking off.

It comes down to what you want to build, tombs for Pharoahs or drive through's for McDonald's, neither is right, neither is wrong, just different aspects to the hobby.
 
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D

djparkins

Western Thunderer
mickoo said:
Hello Martin,

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

Regarding 3D, I don't think anyone one really knows, but, some one has to be first, some one has to make the first step off the Apollo lander, some one has to be the first to fall, pick themselves up and go again.

It's a valid point and I hear it a lot from the traditional sphere of modelling, word on the street is 20 years max, but we now seem to be in an era of shortening expectations. I'm under no illusion any of my models will be around for 100 years, or even 40 if I'm honest, and if they are, I'll probably be dead and it's not a concern any more.

I understand the longevity aspect but I fear we're becoming hesitant, holding back and as such are missing out. No one can predict the future (next weeks lottery numbers are....:D) so I'm in the camp you grab what you can now by the horns and run with it, if it works, then great, if not then deal with it then (technology will have moved on anyway). Pretty much all of my 3D that may be a potential problem is removable with screws and mechanical fixings so it can be removed and replaced if required.

If you design your part correctly with a mechanical component that limits movement or warping then it shouldn't really be an issue, I suspect if that 1950's coach had a steel floor it'd be perfectly all right now.

In short I build for now or the very near future, I could have been killed in a head on collision or rolled under an HGV this afternoon driving back from Kettering, where would have all the future planning and material concerns have got me then?

I follow a lot of 3D printing social media pages and some of these guys (15 plus years, print farms with 30 plus machines and post hits in the tens of thousands) have been doing it from the early days, some have 3D prints sat on there window sill for 5-10 years or more as test pigs and these are still fine, bearing in mind that they've used resin that has a technological spec of that era and modern resins are/should be even more durable, some people get failures weeks after they've printed, partialy due to the choice of resin but also exposure times or printer set ups.

Having said all that, what's the life expectancy of all the modern RTR (let alone the massive plastic aircraft, AFV's, Sci Fi, ships kit side of the hobby) we're now seeing, 20-30 years? So is 3D really that badly behind, I've heard that some JLTRT early plastics are now becoming brittle and breaking up, I've also seen older white metal castings starting to degenerate and degrade becoming very brittle and breaking off.

It comes down to what you want to build, tombs for Pharoahs or drive through's for McDonald's, neither is right, neither is wrong, just different aspects to the hobby.
Click to expand...
I agree on this. In the aircraft modelling sphere I’ve sometimes heard American modellers observe that they are ‘building models for themselves and not for The Smithsonian’ - for the UK substitute The Science Museum or whatever.

And at the risk of being flippant, given the average age of most O gauge modellers, 25 years life expectancy is a deal most of us would seize with both hands!

DJP/MMP etc
 
Pencarrow

Pencarrow

Western Thunderer
djparkins said:
I agree on this. In the aircraft modelling sphere I’ve sometimes heard American modellers observe that they are ‘building models for themselves and not for The Smithsonian’ - for the UK substitute The Science Museum or whatever.

And at the risk of being flippant, given the average age of most O gauge modellers, 25 years life expectancy is a deal most of us would seize with both hands!

DJP/MMP etc
Click to expand...

I agree. And we shouldn't forget there's issues with the longevity of many materials we commonly use if conditions are not right.

Steel (in Slater's wheels) is prone to rusting if the surface is left. Plasticard goes brittle in the sun if not painted. Prints (such as self print paper textures and photos) produced on a typical home printer fade unless UV stable ink or a UV blocking varnish is used. Card can get damp and warp. Timber can get attacked by woodworm or rot.

As Mick often says - right material in the right circumstance / situation / use. It's also clear, that in mechanically attaching (by screws or bolts) the prints, Mick has planned for ease of replacement if the worst happens.
 
JimG

JimG

Western Thunderer
Following up on the discussion of the longevity of 3D printing resins compared to other materials we use for modelling, I remember back in the 1990s obtaining some S scale coach bodies built by the late John Noble, probably in the 1950s/60s. The coaches were scratchbuilt from brass sheet, and on every body, one or more solder joints had broken and parted. I'm not sure what might have caused this - the type of solder used, joints made under tension or maybe differential expansion if the coaches had been subjected to a wide variation of temperature. But the coaches would need complete rebuilding.

Jim.
 
mickoo

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Lionel JLC (special edition extra detail models) GG1, maybe only 10-15 years old, bear in mind these were in the region of $800-1000 when new I believe.

IMG_0170.jpg

Mazak rot on the trucks, it's so bad it's like a dry mix cake (definitely not Mary Berry!), just crumbles in your fingers.

Oddly it only seems to affect the silver Congressional models, the green and maroon models haven't suffered the same.....yet.

IMG_0188.jpg
 
4

40057

Western Thunderer
Hi Mickoo

Thanks for your response.

You are quite right; someone does have to go first and in all walks of life we need people who will do that. In other contexts, it could be me, but I find I am rather conservative (with a small ‘c’) as regards railway modelling. When I worked in local government, received wisdom was that your council should always aim to go second or third with any new ideas. Let some other council make the mistakes, but then get brownie points for being innovative without the risk of doing something completely untried. Of course, not all councils could wait to be second, or nothing would ever have changed. Someone does have to be the first.

The point you and others make about 3-D printed components being potentially more durable than other traditionally used materials is also clearly correct. Steel, wood, card, paper, various plastics will all rapidly deteriorate when subject to, variously, either damp, UV, temperature fluctuations, insect attack and so on. Your photo of the disintegrating Mazak is horrifying and I wouldn’t expect that in a modern model. Nothing to do with use or poor treatment, of course, but a faulty alloy. In the 1920s, Mazak was seen as the new wonder material by model manufacturers for producing cheap and accurate castings. It then became apparent it often deteriorated to dust in only a few years. Mazak wheels and other components have turned out to be the Achilles’ heal of many commercial models made in the 1930s, failing long before other parts which are still good today. I believe during WW2 the problem was identified as lead contamination in the alloy mix and, for instance, Mazak used in post-war Hornby models does not break up.

There have always been items designed to last a life-time and others for the short term before replacement.The 1950s plastic coach I instanced in my previous post was a cheap, mass produced item which neither the manufacturer nor the original purchaser expected to last more than a few years. The loco bought by my father-in-law’s father would have been expensive and built and expected to last. In the 1920s, the Sheffield firm W.H.Jubb advertised models as being ‘a locomotive you will operate with your son — and he will operate with his son’. No ambiguity there. I guess I just like the idea of things being built to last.

I do have a couple of brass kits sitting in boxes that I have neither the time, inclination nor (probably) the skills needed to build. Could I contact you to see if you might be interested in taking them on?

Martin
 
mickoo

mickoo

Western Thunderer
A quick intermission build to ease back into the swing of things after the Kettering show, in this case a David Andrews 4F. Tenders are a good way to get your eye back in and this one is no exception, simple is as simple does.

Not sure about the filler, think it may be a flip lid type but the kit only supplies the dustbin lid version, might have to swap that out after some research, also need to bend the guard irons to the correct profile.

Then it needs a jolly good clean before bagging up for paint.

The engine needs some etch work for the inside motion (plus a bundle of LNWR valve gear for upcoming work) so it'll get held over to one side until it's delivered and allow time for the King engine to be completed.

IMG_12261.jpg

IMG_12273.jpg
 
G

Gavin Eyre

Member
mickoo said:
I've been ordering these but see they're out of stock, an alternative would be any 4 mm plunger pick up I suppose.

spur-0-kaufhaus.de

Kugelkontakt, schw., klein, in KS- Hülse 4 St.

für 2,5mm Bohrung, Kunststoffhülse, Feder und Neusilberdrehteile, 4 Stück
spur-0-kaufhaus.de spur-0-kaufhaus.de

I'm sure they'll be available elsewhere, just never needed to check, I usually buy five or ten packs at a time.
Click to expand...
They are back in stock. I had to buy some more after one went "boing gone" this evening
 
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