Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
Peter,
I would go further. If you can build a good model from a very poor kit you should have little difficulty scratch building!
Ian.
Peter,
I would go further. If you can build a good model from a very poor kit you should have little difficulty scratch building!
Ian.
Peter Cross
Western Thunderer
This is a difficult one to answer. Yes better kits are easier for all to build, yes they can also be built badly. But, I think you learn far more from a poor kit. It is harder though to produce a good model from one. It is also a fallacy that you need a workshop shop full of machines. When I first came to Brazil, I just had hand tools and a knackered hand mini drill. My first to builds here were an Ace LBSCR A1 and a College 2MT. I still would like to get a mill and lathe over here, to make life easier, but it's finding a suitable exporter. As I could import two for the price they want for one over here.
Anyway we ought to let the thread get back to building the A4.
Anyway we ought to let the thread get back to building the A4.
P A D
Western Thunderer
So here's the coupling hook and buckeye fitted, along with the spare coupling and hook and the steam heating and brake pipe. The spare coupling is by CPL and was a spares from the A3 set. The small top link has a flat that slots into the hook made from 0.7mm wire. I clamped the hook in the vice and opened out the gap at the bottom with a broach so the link can then pivot. To remove it you have to line up the flat with the top of the hook, so hopefully it won't be dropping out all the time during handling.
The pipes have been made from brass tube rather than the rubber provided in the kit. The one on the left has had ribbing added by tapping 10BA and the right one is plain as on the prototype. I robbed the right hand one on the A3 tender in error, but I'll live with it. I 've added the stowage chain to the right side pipe but it's hidden by the spare coupling.
Just needs the buffers and draw bar pin to complete but I'll move on to the loco next. Here are some views from the front.
The kit provides doors to add to the hinges, but I'll leave them off as I did on the A3 and just put fixed doors on the loco.
Cheers,
Peter
The pipes have been made from brass tube rather than the rubber provided in the kit. The one on the left has had ribbing added by tapping 10BA and the right one is plain as on the prototype. I robbed the right hand one on the A3 tender in error, but I'll live with it. I 've added the stowage chain to the right side pipe but it's hidden by the spare coupling.
Just needs the buffers and draw bar pin to complete but I'll move on to the loco next. Here are some views from the front.
The kit provides doors to add to the hinges, but I'll leave them off as I did on the A3 and just put fixed doors on the loco.
Cheers,
Peter
P A D
Western Thunderer
A modest start has been made the with the lamination of the coupling rods. Nothing out of the ordinary here, other than blackening the fluting with an indelible marker before soldering. This was to avoid any solder running into the fluting.
After cleaning up, the rods were joined with the recommended 1.6mm N/S wire. I believe Laurie Griffin does some cast castle nuts so I may get some and fix over the end of the N/S wire after filing flush.
Next for me will be uncharted territory, when I cut out the frame sections to fit the hornblocks. Should be fun. I had a quick look at the hornblock instructions and it mentions turning up an axle jig for fitting. Ok if you have a lathe, which I don't, but my brother has a fancy chassis jig that I can use instead.
Cheers,
Peter
After cleaning up, the rods were joined with the recommended 1.6mm N/S wire. I believe Laurie Griffin does some cast castle nuts so I may get some and fix over the end of the N/S wire after filing flush.
Next for me will be uncharted territory, when I cut out the frame sections to fit the hornblocks. Should be fun. I had a quick look at the hornblock instructions and it mentions turning up an axle jig for fitting. Ok if you have a lathe, which I don't, but my brother has a fancy chassis jig that I can use instead.
Cheers,
Peter
P A D
Western Thunderer
The tender frames are at scale width so unless you are able to make the buffers self contained (as described by Mickoo),they need to be set closer together. First the holes in the buffer beam were filed on the inner edges to elongate. To gain more clearance next to the inside of the frames, the 8BA nuts were dispensed with and replaced with 10BAs tapped to 8BA.
I also turned down the back using the mini drill and a file, as well as cutting about 1.5 mm off the end. To gain further clearance I the turned the flats off the nuts.
So back to the loco. The next step is to assemble the hornblocks. Here are the parts laid out after de-cusping, with one of the horn guides folded. After folding the first one I found that the bearing would not slide as tge fold was too tight. I straightened it and refolded clamping it in the pliers so that the fold was made from the outer edge of the half etch fold line. This gave a firm sliding fit so I repeated this with the rest and soldered them up.
And after soldering and cleaning up.
Note that for full compensation using the rear side beams, the top of the horn guides need to be removed to allow the beam to rest on the sliding bearing. There are half etch lines to aid cutting with the piercing saw and you can see them on the right . This one is for the front axle and pivots in the centre so the cut out is not required.
The instructions suggest soldering up and then cutting out the half etch. However, it makes sense to saw the horizontal cuts in the flat and only solder at the sides of the horn guides and not the top. That way you just need to saw through top and then make the vertical cuts. The loose piece can then be wiggled out. Here's another view.
Next the gaps in the frames for the hornblocks are cut out. The etched folds for the side and bottom of the middle sandbox need cutting off as F7 provide very nice white metal castings. Here's the right hand side after cutting off the surplus metal.
Here are the frames with the right hand one de-cusped and the rivets punched out. The left hand side is still to be done and the hornblocks are just laid on for the photo.
Here's a shot with the right hand frame laid on the GA drawing. This has been reduced from the one available from the SNGLT website, which is about 12mm/ft.
Cheers,
Peter
I also turned down the back using the mini drill and a file, as well as cutting about 1.5 mm off the end. To gain further clearance I the turned the flats off the nuts.
So back to the loco. The next step is to assemble the hornblocks. Here are the parts laid out after de-cusping, with one of the horn guides folded. After folding the first one I found that the bearing would not slide as tge fold was too tight. I straightened it and refolded clamping it in the pliers so that the fold was made from the outer edge of the half etch fold line. This gave a firm sliding fit so I repeated this with the rest and soldered them up.
And after soldering and cleaning up.
Note that for full compensation using the rear side beams, the top of the horn guides need to be removed to allow the beam to rest on the sliding bearing. There are half etch lines to aid cutting with the piercing saw and you can see them on the right . This one is for the front axle and pivots in the centre so the cut out is not required.
The instructions suggest soldering up and then cutting out the half etch. However, it makes sense to saw the horizontal cuts in the flat and only solder at the sides of the horn guides and not the top. That way you just need to saw through top and then make the vertical cuts. The loose piece can then be wiggled out. Here's another view.
Next the gaps in the frames for the hornblocks are cut out. The etched folds for the side and bottom of the middle sandbox need cutting off as F7 provide very nice white metal castings. Here's the right hand side after cutting off the surplus metal.
Here are the frames with the right hand one de-cusped and the rivets punched out. The left hand side is still to be done and the hornblocks are just laid on for the photo.
Here's a shot with the right hand frame laid on the GA drawing. This has been reduced from the one available from the SNGLT website, which is about 12mm/ft.
Cheers,
Peter
P A D
Western Thunderer
Here are the frames after soldering the rear hornblocks in place.
And laid out with the main spacers ready to fit. As far as the rivets are concerned, I've punched out the lot. I don't know if if is any advantage, but I decided to tap the forward hole for the front compensation pivot 10BA and about 1/4 inch of the steel rod, so it can be screwed in and out.
Here are the frames after soldering up. One hornblock was slightly forward of the other so I had to remove it so it can be repositioned.
Cheers,
Peter
And laid out with the main spacers ready to fit. As far as the rivets are concerned, I've punched out the lot. I don't know if if is any advantage, but I decided to tap the forward hole for the front compensation pivot 10BA and about 1/4 inch of the steel rod, so it can be screwed in and out.
Here are the frames after soldering up. One hornblock was slightly forward of the other so I had to remove it so it can be repositioned.
Cheers,
Peter
P A D
Western Thunderer
Things have stalled since the last post, awaiting the acquisition of some suitable springs to go with the tapered axles I found. I've now got the horn guides tack soldered in place and the rear compensation ready to go on.
Here are the beams and brass pivot rod. The thin steel rod is the pivot for the front axle. Tapping it has the advantage of being able to take it out when fitting the horn guides using the taper axle and spring.
I found that the coupling rods kept falling of the tapered ends of the rods when setting up, so I tapped the ends 8BA and used a nut to retain them.
I need to prep the wheels next so I can get them on and check that all is fine before fully soldering the horn guides in place .
Cheers ,
Peter
Here are the beams and brass pivot rod. The thin steel rod is the pivot for the front axle. Tapping it has the advantage of being able to take it out when fitting the horn guides using the taper axle and spring.
I found that the coupling rods kept falling of the tapered ends of the rods when setting up, so I tapped the ends 8BA and used a nut to retain them.
I need to prep the wheels next so I can get them on and check that all is fine before fully soldering the horn guides in place .
Cheers ,
Peter
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Nicely done with the springs and nuts, Peter,
I tend to use wooden clothes pegs and blu-tack. Mind you, I also tend to fit hornguides to each chassis half before assembling the frames...
Neat job though - like it!
Where did you get the tapered jig axles from? I've got a couple of sets I got from Fourtrack and it might be useful to know where to get them from now.
Steph
I tend to use wooden clothes pegs and blu-tack. Mind you, I also tend to fit hornguides to each chassis half before assembling the frames...
Neat job though - like it!
Where did you get the tapered jig axles from? I've got a couple of sets I got from Fourtrack and it might be useful to know where to get them from now.
Steph
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P A D
Western Thunderer
Thanks Dave.
Steph,
When I said I found the tapered axles, I meant in the toolbox. Never used them before, as this is the first kit that I have fitted horn guides to. I've no idea where they were sourced, but David has come up trumps. I searched on google but could not find any, then the ones in the toolbox turned up. Next time I'll use some washers between the spring and bearing as in the Midland Railway Centre ones. I was going to use blue tack on the ends but then I thought "are we not men", do it properly. You don't need much thread, just the depth of the nut, so the rods are still resting on the taper and centered.
Cheers,
Peter
Steph,
When I said I found the tapered axles, I meant in the toolbox. Never used them before, as this is the first kit that I have fitted horn guides to. I've no idea where they were sourced, but David has come up trumps. I searched on google but could not find any, then the ones in the toolbox turned up. Next time I'll use some washers between the spring and bearing as in the Midland Railway Centre ones. I was going to use blue tack on the ends but then I thought "are we not men", do it properly. You don't need much thread, just the depth of the nut, so the rods are still resting on the taper and centered.
Cheers,
Peter
simond
Western Thunderer
Are we not men? I must confess to using a couple of rubber bands to keep the rods on the extended axles 
My dummy axles are home-grown and rather longer - about 6" - which allows them to rest on the upturned corner of some ally angles, which in turn rest on the sheet of plate glass I use as a surface plate. I use springs between each pair of axleboxes to press them outwards and hold the hornguides against the frames, and friction stops them rotating around the axle.
I put a bit of squared paper under the glass, so as to get everything visually square, and then get in there with gallons of flux and the big iron. Get it all on square, and sort cleaning up out later!
Had a bit of a debate with someone on the GOG site a while back - said he wouldn't be without one of the expensive chassis jigs. I explained my approach - it then transpired that he built locos professionally, and would do at least one per month, whereas if I do one per year - I think the technique I use has an acceptable accuracy/cost ratio for me, but is much less convenient than the jig. Yer pays yer money...
best
Simon
My dummy axles are home-grown and rather longer - about 6" - which allows them to rest on the upturned corner of some ally angles, which in turn rest on the sheet of plate glass I use as a surface plate. I use springs between each pair of axleboxes to press them outwards and hold the hornguides against the frames, and friction stops them rotating around the axle.
I put a bit of squared paper under the glass, so as to get everything visually square, and then get in there with gallons of flux and the big iron. Get it all on square, and sort cleaning up out later!
Had a bit of a debate with someone on the GOG site a while back - said he wouldn't be without one of the expensive chassis jigs. I explained my approach - it then transpired that he built locos professionally, and would do at least one per month, whereas if I do one per year - I think the technique I use has an acceptable accuracy/cost ratio for me, but is much less convenient than the jig. Yer pays yer money...
best
Simon
P A D
Western Thunderer
After fitting the compensation beams, wheels and coupling rods, the wheels turned freely first time. However the chassis was nose diving at the front. Well it is streamlined!
A quick check of the frame height above the rails showed it to be 45mm at the rear and lower at the front. The instructions state that the frame height between the coupled wheels should be 44mm. So what to do to lower the back end. Here are the beams which have a half etched line at the bottom edges. I decided that if I filed thrm to the top edge of the half etch, I would lose 1mm and lower the height at the back.
I clamped them back to back in the vice using the pivot rod to line up the centre, then attacked them with a file. Here they are ready to go back on.
And back ln the wheels. Job's a good un.
After solder fully all the horn guides and spacers, I added the support bracket come spacer for the reversing rod and gave it a good clean up.
And back on the wheels again.
There's a fair bit of side play in the axles that will need taking up with washers, especially the front one to avoid fouling the cross head. I tried it on a length of sloping track and it ran freely under it's own weight, so the anxiety I felt cutting out the axle bush holes in the frames for the horn guides, has abated. I found the slot and tab design on the MOK Std 4MT much easier, but I suppose once you've done one or two, it becomes second nature.
Cheers,
Peter
A quick check of the frame height above the rails showed it to be 45mm at the rear and lower at the front. The instructions state that the frame height between the coupled wheels should be 44mm. So what to do to lower the back end. Here are the beams which have a half etched line at the bottom edges. I decided that if I filed thrm to the top edge of the half etch, I would lose 1mm and lower the height at the back.
I clamped them back to back in the vice using the pivot rod to line up the centre, then attacked them with a file. Here they are ready to go back on.
And back ln the wheels. Job's a good un.
After solder fully all the horn guides and spacers, I added the support bracket come spacer for the reversing rod and gave it a good clean up.
And back on the wheels again.
There's a fair bit of side play in the axles that will need taking up with washers, especially the front one to avoid fouling the cross head. I tried it on a length of sloping track and it ran freely under it's own weight, so the anxiety I felt cutting out the axle bush holes in the frames for the horn guides, has abated. I found the slot and tab design on the MOK Std 4MT much easier, but I suppose once you've done one or two, it becomes second nature.
Cheers,
Peter
P A D
Western Thunderer
Interesting Tony.
There is no mention of the half etch line on the compensation beams in the instructions. The A3 beams are the same, although I did not use them, so I checked the Martin Finney instructions and again there is no mention.
Anyway back to the build. Now that I was satisfied everything was square and lined up, I decided to permanently fit the compensation beams by soldering up the 1/8th inch pivot rod. However, I noticed this. Here one of the beams is placed on a length of 1/8th rod outside of the frame. As can be seen, it would foul the 0.8mm rod for the brake hangers when inserted afterwords.
Simple enough to solve with a few strokes from a round file.
After adding the 0.8mm rod for the brake hangers, I moved on to the sand boxes. F7 have upgrade the kit with cast white metal sand boxes to replace the etched ones between the 1st and middle driving wheels. However, the inner face is open so I soldered them to a sheet of brass, cut off the excess and cleaned up. Here they are with the front pair on the left. By now as I had added the rod for the brake hangers, I had to drill a hole in the outer face of the castings to clear the stub on the inside of the frame. All four were fixed in place with epoxy.
Next the driving wheel springs which are supplied as 3 etched laminated, so 18 pieces. Strangely there is no mention of when to fit these parts in the instructions, but I decided now was the time. Here are one set laid out.
Note that the middle etch with the horn keep, has some half etch detail which j assume should be in the outside. If you care using them as is then ensure that the part with the lead detail and representation of the shackle nut is on the outside of the centre piece so the the "but free" one on the inside. In my case it did not matter as I filed them off to replace with 14BA nuts and bolts.
Here they are after laminating, but before filing around the edges.
Here's one after removing the "nut" next to an original.
And some views after fitting. The axle boxes are of course permanently fixed now. The sand boxes can also be seen.
A couple of brass laminates have also been added to the upper edge of the frame as have the detail to the spring hanger rods
Here's a view of the middle sand boxes between the frames. The holes are for the filler pipes.
And back with the wheels back in .
And the right way up.
Cheers,
Peter
There is no mention of the half etch line on the compensation beams in the instructions. The A3 beams are the same, although I did not use them, so I checked the Martin Finney instructions and again there is no mention.
Anyway back to the build. Now that I was satisfied everything was square and lined up, I decided to permanently fit the compensation beams by soldering up the 1/8th inch pivot rod. However, I noticed this. Here one of the beams is placed on a length of 1/8th rod outside of the frame. As can be seen, it would foul the 0.8mm rod for the brake hangers when inserted afterwords.
Simple enough to solve with a few strokes from a round file.
After adding the 0.8mm rod for the brake hangers, I moved on to the sand boxes. F7 have upgrade the kit with cast white metal sand boxes to replace the etched ones between the 1st and middle driving wheels. However, the inner face is open so I soldered them to a sheet of brass, cut off the excess and cleaned up. Here they are with the front pair on the left. By now as I had added the rod for the brake hangers, I had to drill a hole in the outer face of the castings to clear the stub on the inside of the frame. All four were fixed in place with epoxy.
Next the driving wheel springs which are supplied as 3 etched laminated, so 18 pieces. Strangely there is no mention of when to fit these parts in the instructions, but I decided now was the time. Here are one set laid out.
Note that the middle etch with the horn keep, has some half etch detail which j assume should be in the outside. If you care using them as is then ensure that the part with the lead detail and representation of the shackle nut is on the outside of the centre piece so the the "but free" one on the inside. In my case it did not matter as I filed them off to replace with 14BA nuts and bolts.
Here they are after laminating, but before filing around the edges.
Here's one after removing the "nut" next to an original.
And some views after fitting. The axle boxes are of course permanently fixed now. The sand boxes can also be seen.
A couple of brass laminates have also been added to the upper edge of the frame as have the detail to the spring hanger rods
Here's a view of the middle sand boxes between the frames. The holes are for the filler pipes.
And back with the wheels back in .
And the right way up.
Cheers,
Peter
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Peter,
I'm afraid to say the inner sandboxes are on back to front, the reason they are hollow is for casting and an indication as to which side solders to the frames; the hollow also goes over the brake hanger rod if left protruding on the inside. The inspection hatches on the bottom sloped face of the sandbox should face toward the inside of the engine.
With your current set up then I fear the sand pipes will conflict with the brake gear when fitted.
Regarding the compensation beam, the instructions quite clearly state (or should?) on page 6 to trim the end of the brake hanger pivot back to clear the compensation beams, but your solution works just as well
MD
I'm afraid to say the inner sandboxes are on back to front, the reason they are hollow is for casting and an indication as to which side solders to the frames; the hollow also goes over the brake hanger rod if left protruding on the inside. The inspection hatches on the bottom sloped face of the sandbox should face toward the inside of the engine.
With your current set up then I fear the sand pipes will conflict with the brake gear when fitted.
Regarding the compensation beam, the instructions quite clearly state (or should?) on page 6 to trim the end of the brake hanger pivot back to clear the compensation beams, but your solution works just as well
MD
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Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Hi Peter,
I didn't clock it at the time, but you should have removed just the fold up tabs of the inner sandbox on the frame. The outline of the face should have remained in place, to cover the void in the casting below the bottom edge of the frame.
At least, that is my interpretation......
We'll have a look at the instructions to see if they can be made clearer.
Richard
I didn't clock it at the time, but you should have removed just the fold up tabs of the inner sandbox on the frame. The outline of the face should have remained in place, to cover the void in the casting below the bottom edge of the frame.
At least, that is my interpretation......
We'll have a look at the instructions to see if they can be made clearer.
Richard