Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

Martin @Martin Shaw , thank you for the details about 31501 and also 31890, and thanks too to Roger @Scanlon for further info. I knew the story about the Rivers but hadn't put Rivers and U1s together previously.

And thanks for those photos Dave @Yorkshire Dave . Much appreciated. Personally I think all the Southern moguls look better without smoke deflectors but the Brighton K is the best looking of the lot.

Schools Class 30932 Blundells on shed at Ramsgate on 17th August 1958. In post #3309 we saw this loco on the scrap line at Ashford Works Yard on 3rd June 1961. I believe this was the second Schools to be withdrawn - Harrow (30919) was the first. I saw and photographed this loco in the yard at Ashford accompanied by 30933 during my trip on 5th April 1961. It had been a long time resident of Bricklayers Arms where it had been in and out of store since June 1950 but was finally withdrawn in January 1961 so it hung around Ashford for a long while. It was observed in February, May, July and August at Ashford (RO and SLS) and was eventually cut up week ending 19th August 1961.

Lurking behind is U1 31906.



A regrettably horribly underexposed photo of Black 5 44984 in August 1958. I believe this to be at Kentish Town Shed. It was on the Bedford allocation in June 1956 until it moved to Kentish Town in January 1960. It then went to Leicester GC in March 1962, Bedford in June and Cricklewood in July 1963, back to Leicester GC in February and Annesley in July 1964, then Colwick in January 1966 where it was withdrawn in November. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, in March 1967. (BR Database)



61XX 2-6-2T 6136 on a Reading local train on the GW main line at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. The loco was allocated to Slough from August 1948, moved to Didcot in September 1960 and finally Oxford in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in January 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in May 1966. (BR Database).



We saw this loco in post #2823. It’s King Class 6001 King Edward VII here on a Birmingham train at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. The loco had been allocated to Stafford Road since October 1954 and was withdrawn at the end of September 1962. (SLS). It was sold for scrap in December the same year and went to Cox and Danks, Oldbury. (BR Database). It was seen in store at Wolverhampton Stafford Road on 14th October 1962 along with a number of other King Class locos. (SLS)



Brian

Castle 4085 Berkeley Castle looking specially buffed up - had it been used on an enthusiast special, I wonder, on the GW main line at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. We've seen this in posts #2813 and #2863. 4085 was a Worcester engine in April 1958, Gloucester Horton Road in May, Worcester in March 1960 and became an Old Oak engine in September 1960. It was withdrawn in May 1962. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's, Newport for disposal which was completed in October the same year. (BR Database).



2251 Class 0-6-0 2276 on a goods train on the GW main line at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. Another 2251 Class in London which I never saw myself. BR Database records show the loco allocated to Old Oak Common from at least 1947 and both BR Database and the SLS report it at Shrewsbury from May 1960, then Machynlleth in June 1961where it was withdrawn in September 1962. It was scrapped in July 1964 at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge. (BR Database).

Above the eighth wagon is the footbridge remarked upon previously - a good place for seeing locos coming on and off Old Oak shed and with a great view of the main line too. The wall is between the Grand Union Canal towpath and the railway and somewhat further on there were breaches in the wall which gave reasonably covered access to the shed itself. I seem to remember that these were concrete segments rather than brick but memory is probably at fault...



In post #2326 this loco was seen in Old Oak Common factory but here Modified Hall 7902 Eaton Mascot Hall is on the main line at Old Oak where it had been allocated since new in 1949. It was withdrawn in June 1964 (SLS) and was scrapped at Swindon Works (RO) by the end of September. (BR Database)



Hall Class 6917 Oldlands Hall on a parcels train on the GW main line at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. BR Database report that the loco was allocated to Gloucester Horton Road from at least June 1947. It then went to Oxley in July 1961 and Banbury in January or February 1965 where it was withdrawn in the following September. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped by January 1966 (BR Database) and in December 1965 was photographed being cut up on site by J Friswell, Banbury (WHTS).



Brian

oldravendale said:

Castle 4085 Berkeley Castle looking specially buffed up - had it been used on an enthusiast special, I wonder

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It was, perhaps, more infamous as being the loco that ran down G. J. Churchward when it was on a Paddington to Fishguard express on 19th December 1933 - it's the 91st anniversary of that event tomorrow.

Dave

I'd never heard that previously, Dave @daifly ...

N Class 31810 on shed at Ramsgate on 17th August 1958. The loco was at Stewarts Lane from at least 1948 (BR Database), Dover Marine in August 1959, Eastleigh May 1961 and Guildford in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in March 1964. (SLS). It was disposed of at Birds, Morriston, Swansea (RO) in July 1964 (BR Database).

I think I should have painted out that telegraph pole top/lighting post sprouting out of the chimney. I've only just noticed it!



L Class 31764 on an excursion arriving at Ramsgate on 17th August 1958. It was allocated to Ramsgate in October 1955 before going to Nine Elms in June 1959 where it was withdrawn in February 1961 (SLS) going to Ashford Works (SO) for disposal which was completed in April 1961. (BR Database).



King Arthur 30795 Sir Dinadan on shed at Ramsgate on 17th August 1958. Home shed was Stewarts Lane where it was allocated in June 1956 before going to Feltham in June 1959 and finally Basingstoke in October 1960 where it was withdrawn in August 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works week ending 3rd August 1962.

Who else had the Hornby model?? Looked exactly not quite like this.



94XX 0-6-0PT 9406 on a local train at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. (In the event of a 61XX not being available a pannier tank was normally commandeered). The loco was allocated to Slough in May 1951 moving to Southall in September 1963 and finally Old Oak Common in November the same year where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (SLS). It was observed in store at Southall in November 1964 then went to Bird’s, Risca (WHTS) where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database).



Brian

And Seasons Greetings to all.

Season's greetings to you too.
Accompanied by a huge thank-you for your time and trouble scanning and posting these wonderful images

oldravendale said:

L Class 31764 on an excursion arriving at Ramsgate on 17th August 1958. It was allocated to Ramsgate in October 1955 before going to Nine Elms in June 1959 where it was withdrawn in February 1961 (SLS) going to Ashford Works (SO) for disposal which was completed in April 1961. (BR Database).

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Interesting mix of coaching stock. As far as I can make out from the engine: Maunsell restriction 4 brake third > SECR 'Continental' > Maunsell restriction 4 full third > SECR 'Continental' > SECR 'Continental' > Maunsell restriction 4 > Maunsell restriction 4 > SECR 'Continental' > Maunsell restriction 4 (brake?) and what appears to be a loco at the rear (when enlarged).

This is a Sunday excursion and if the 17th August 1958 excursion followed the same pattern as the April to June 1958 excursions in the February 1958 handbill, then this will be around 19:15 (7.15 pm) on it's return from Margate via Broadstairs to Ramsgate thence to it's origin. However the headcode doesn't fit as it is Ashford (Kent) and Dover via Minster and Deal. As far as I can make out Margate and Ramsgate services did not carry this headcode.



The chimneys on the right are Ramsgate power station.

Thanks to you, Tim @timbowales for your contributions to this site and to everyone else who has expanded and corrected the available and sometimes misleading information. Thanks too to those who have contacted me by way of PMs. I'm so pleased to see that the site is gathering people along the way, at least judging by the "Likes" and that, for me, is what it's all about. There's still a huge quantity of material to come so I hope those viewing this will continue to enjoy and let me know when you've had enough.

There have even been some mentions of photos believed to originate from here which have appeared elsewhere, in breach of copyright. This sort of message is of value to me as Tim's family are jealous of the copyright and I do all I can to protect it. So far I'm pleased to say that no breaches have been detected after investigation.

Moving on to yours, Dave @Yorkshire Dave , I think we can say with a degree of certainty that sometimes Tim's descriptions are somewhat fanciful and photos this early in Tim's photographic journey may be more prone to misdescription than those from later (although sadly many of his much later colour slides have no information attached at all). I suspect img3555 falls in to the category of those photos where we can legitimately question the veracity of the attached data. Thank you for providing corrective info, Dave, and I suspect that this is indeed an Ashford/Dover train. Thanks too for your run down of the stock. Now you mention it that could indeed be another loco at the tail of the train but if so I wonder why?

Tanner-oner 6133 on an up local on the GW main line at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. This was a Slough engine from at least June 1947 (BR Database), then Oxford in November 1959 and Southall in January 1960 where it was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). It went to King’s of Norwich for disposal where it was observed intact in November 1964 and was cut up in December 1964 (RO) although BR Database report a scrapping date as early as March.



Seen previously in post #2523 is King Class 6012 King Edward VI with the head board for The Mayflower on the GW main line at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. It moved from Old Oak Common where it was allocated in July 1954 to Stafford Road in April 1962 and was withdrawn from there in September. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cox & Danks, Oldbury in October 1963. (BR Database).



Condensing 57XX pannier tank 9706 previously seen in posts #1239 and #2372 here with empty stock on the GW main line at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. It had been an Old Oak engine for ever – since at least 1947 and probably when new in 1933 (BR Database) and was withdrawn from there in November 1964. (SLS). It went to RS Hayes/Birds, Tremains Yard, Bridgend where it was scrapped by the end of February 1965. (Rail UK).



Castle Class 5004 Llanstephan Castle on the GW main line at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. It was allocated to Landore in April 1958, moving to Neath (Court Sart) in June 1961 and withdrawal in April 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Swindon Works in June the same year. (BR Database).



Brian

Some notes,

6133 Slough 1/48, Oxford 11/59, Southall 1/60, Reading 11/63, Wdn 12/63. This is according to Longworth, note the month at Reading which may or not have been a paper transfer.

6012 It looks as though it's going backwards to OOC shed for servicing presumably having hauled the up Mayflower. Both the crew are looking over the tender and there is what appears to be a tail lamp on the front buffer beam. The steam from the safety valves also strongly suggests this.

9706 was indeed allocated to OOC new in 12/33, all of the series 9700-10 going there between Sept 33 and Jan 34. 9701/2/5/7/9 had a spell at Southall in 1940/41, 9707 after OOC went to Southall 30/11/63 and a paper transfer to Taunton 24/8/64, Wdn 9/64. The rest were all withdrawn from OOC, 9706 being the last in 11/64.

5004 Llanstephan Castle Old Oak Common 21/12/35, Shrewsbury 6/56, Canton 20/9/57, Landore 20/3/58, Neath 13/6/61, Wdn 3/4/62, Cut up 6/62. These are Irwell's dates, Longworth agrees apart from Shrewsbury which he has as 5/56.

Fortunately I didn't have to go Christmas shopping today.

Martin

Thank you, Martin @Martin Shaw , for all that detail about the loco histories. Will be added to the data already captured.

Castle Class 5081 Lockheed Hudson on the GW main line at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. The loco was allocated to Worcester in January 1955. Hereford in September 1960 and Cardiff East Dock in September 1962 where it was withdrawn at the end of Ocrober or beginning of November 1963. (SLS). It went to Hayes at Bridgend where it was scrapped in June 1964. (BR Database).



Probably on empty stock at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958 is 61XX 2-6-2T 6145. This was an Old Oak Common engine from July 1958 and moved to Oxford in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in January 1966. (SLS). It went to Cashmore’s, Newport, where it was scrapped in February 1966. (BR Database).



47XX 2-8-0 4704 on the down Royal Duchy at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. (“Night Owls” – what a nonsense! It’s a class of loco worthy of preservation though so the new build is to be welcomed.) This had been an Old Oak Common engine from as long ago as October 1951 but moved to Southall in early November 1962 only to return to Old Oak a couple of weeks later. It was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). It went to A King & Sons at Norwich for disposal where it was observed on 31st July 1964 after being recorded in store at Old Oak from May to July and before that at Southall where it was observed in store on 19th July 1964. (WHTS). BR Database report a scrapping date in July 1964 so this must have been immediately after it was last sighted at Kings.



Modified Hall 6947 Helmingham Hall at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. BR Database gives an allocation at Worcester by at least June 1947 and the SLS advise it went to Gloucester Horton Road in October 1962 and Oxford in March 1965 where it was withdrawn in November the same year. It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in April 1966. (BR Database).



Brian

There are probably passengers in that Hawksworth non-corridor lash-up who are considering themselves lucky to be hauled by a 'Castle'. (4058 Lockheed Hudson).

I've tried without success to make out the number of the set forming the Ramsgate excursion in img3555, in the hope it would shed further light on the designs making up the train's composition. It seems to end in “12”, which might make Set 212 a candidate. My Southern Railways Group Digest sheets show that from 1956 to 1959 the outermost vehicle at one end of this Set was no. 6602: a 6-compartment Maunsell 'high window' Brake Composite to Diagram 2401. The appearance of the brake vehicle bearing the Set number in Tim's picture seems consistent with this design. The SRG Digest sheets indicate that Set 212 also included two 7.5 compartment 'Continental' Seconds, numbered 780 and 781. However, the Digest also indicates that these were contiguously marshalled next to 6602, rather than being separated by the carriage of different design that occupies the third position in the formation as pictured. That casts some doubt on this being Set 212, but so far I haven't encountered a likely alternative candidate.

@John Palmer Could we be looking at set 212 from the other end so to speak with 6602 at the rear?

On the other hand it's not the first time sets have been remarshalled during their careers and observations bear no resemblance to the official Records.

Yorkshire Dave said:

@John Palmer Could we be looking at set 212 from the other end so to speak with 6602 at the rear?

On the other hand it's not the first time sets have been remarshalled during their careers and observations bear no resemblance to the official Records.

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Dave, according to my SRG Digest sheets another 'Continental' SK numbered 782 was 'second vehicle in' at the opposite end of Set 212, and the outermost vehicle at the opposite end was another D.2401 'high window' Brake Composite numbered 6661, so yes, these being carriages at the other end of the Set is just as plausible. And, as you say, some re-marshalling might well account for the carriage interposed between the two 'Continentals'.

John/Dave

I think John has this spot on, Gould states that Set 212 was formed in 1953 of 6 cars comprising B Compo 6604, Third 1839, Compos 5586 & 5630, Third 1861, B Compo 6661. In 1956 Thirds 780/1/2 had been added to make a 9 car set as portrayed in Tim's pic which is consistent with Gould's information. It was kept at Eardley for special traffic which I'm sure would include an excursion to Ramsgate in 1958. It moved to the Central Section in 1960 stored at Hassocks and by 1962 consisted of BSOs 4442/4450 flanking Mk1 SOs.
Martin

Thanks Martin. Gould provides useful information where sets have been augmented and/or remarshalled.

That's a very reasonable assumption, Larry - for the one or two who'd be interested in such things!

John @John Palmer , Dave @Yorkshire Dave and Martin @Martin Shaw - thanks to all of you for providing more food for thought about that SR set formation. We have no way of confirming but your suggestions make good sense and will be retained.

Last seen in post #4315 is Castle 4088 Dartmouth Castle at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. It was at Worcester in April 1958, Swindon in February 1961 and St Philips Marsh in November 1963 where it was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped in September 1964 at Cohen’s, Morriston. (BR Database).



57XX Pannier Tank 8771 on a van train at Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. This loco had been resident at Old Oak Common since at least June 1947 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in July 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in December the same year. (BR Database).



Seen previously in posts #3641 and #3752 is Castle Class 5015 Kingswear Castle here passing Old Oak Common on 16th August 1958. This was allocated to Bristol Bath Road in April 1958, Landore in June 1960 and Old Oak in January 1961, moved to Cardiff East Dock in October 1962 and was withdrawn there in May 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Sheffield, in January 1964. (BR Database).



C Class 0-6-0 31252 at Ramsgate on shed on 17th August 1958. It had been allocated to Ramsgate in December 1949 and moved to Nine Elms in June 1959 (SLS), probably coincident with the Kent Coast electrification. The records seem a bit confused as it is shown as condemned from Nine Elms in July 1959 (BR Database) although seen at Ashford on 12th June (RO). It was therefore probably simply a book transfer away from Ramsgate and an immediate decision to condemn at Ashford. It was scrapped week ending 23rd January 1960. (RO).



Class L 4-4-0 31781 next to C Class 31252 (see above) at Ramsgate on shed on 17th August 1958. This loco will appear again in the next post. It was certainly known at Ramsgate by March 1951 when it was in store and it moved to Bricklayers Arms in store in October 1951 and appears to have remained in store when moving back to Ramsgate in January 1953. I guess it must have seen some revenue earning service from Ramsgate and the discs it carries suggests the last use was quite recent but it was withdrawn in June 1959. (SLS). It was observed at Ashford Works on 12th June 1959 (RO) and scrapped later the same month. (BR Database).



Brian

Isn't 31781 an L class loco rather than L1?

Tim

It absolutely is, Tim. Thanks so much for correcting me. Changed by means of an Edit.

Brian

From Longworth
31252 Dover 1/48, Ramsgate 11/49, Nine Elms 5/59, Wdn 7/59. I agree about the paper transfer to 9 Elms, we have identified a lot of this in both 59 and 61 coincident with the two phases of the Kent Coast scheme.
31781 Ramsgate 1/48, Wdn 6/59. No reference to B Arms.
Martin

76043 said:

Is it possible the standard 4MT at Liverpool Street is on a Liverpool Street to Southend turn via the LT&S? They still occur to this day.

I just about remember the east side and also sigh every time a train shuffles into that US style part of Liverpool Street every time.
Tony

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That could be a regular Southend turn and not necessarily via LTS, they ran up the GEML to Shenfield and branched off. LTS services dropped off after Forest Gate and down to Barking but I recall that was generally freight only or stuff off the NLL in my day.

Liverpool street trains run to Southend Victoria, Fenchurch Street run to Southend Central and terminate at Shoeburyness.

In the 80's when I commuted the Southend trains were limited stoppers on the fast lines, Stratford, Ilford, Romford, Shenfield then all stations to Southend, off peak they ran on the slow lines and just ripped through all the other stations non stop.