The Heybridge Railway, 1889 to 1913

[RichardG]

Dave I thank you for such a thoughtful post. You have identified most of my stumbling blocks and I am beginning to think, I am going to eventually need some kind of programmer.

By way of example, a few years ago I bought a Hornby FLIRT. This beast uses two decoders and I used Coastal DCC to supply me with a pair of LokPilot decoders which they kindly set up for me free of charge. I just had to plug them into the train. This afternoon, I thought about re-using these two decoders in my last two 7mm locos. Well, to cut a long story short, their CV values have been written in such a way as to represent the default values. Trying a reset via CV8 achieves nothing and the only way I can restore these decoders to ESU's factory settings is to take a decoder programmer and a virgin LokPilot; read the entire configuration of this decoder; and write the file back to each of the two FLIRT decoders. This is a perfect example of how DCC keeps on catching me out, and why I repeatedly find it so difficult. It is almost as though me and DCC were never meant to come together, though I have now forced the issue with my Heybridge Railway!

I am now looking at two dormant-but-not-forgotten H0 locos which each carry a LokPilot4 with a MTC21 connector. Supposing I swap these for budget decoders (I have a Lais on order to try) then they can go into the last two 7 mm models. ESU will start to dominate my 7mm models. If I find myself needing (as opposed to wanting) a programmer for them, the decision becomes easier.

 

[Bob Essex]

Richard,

I have used a Sprog2 with JMRI/Decoder Pro to set up my locos since about 2010 and find it invaluable. JMRI is open source so is free and regularly updated by volunteers to keep pace with the latest decoders to arrive. It has definitions for almost every decoder made, past and present. The Sprog family are not just programmers (there is a wide range now) but can be used as full stand-alone DCC systems and both they and JMRI can work with many O/S, Windows/Mac/Linix, etc. While you can program each individual cv if you wish the advantage of Decoder Pro is that it uses a graphical interface with decoder definitions featuring drop-down tabs with cv's grouped in such as: motor control, sounds, and so forth. There is no need to know the cv's concerned. DP generates a 'roster' so all locos details can be entered and stored for re-call at any time.

Bob

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

By way of example, a few years ago I bought a Hornby FLIRT. This beast uses two decoders and I used Coastal DCC to supply me with a pair of LokPilot decoders which they kindly set up for me free of charge. I just had to plug them into the train. This afternoon, I thought about re-using these two decoders in my last two 7mm locos. Well, to cut a long story short, their CV values have been written in such a way as to represent the default values. Trying a reset via CV8 achieves nothing and the only way I can restore these decoders to ESU's factory settings is to take a decoder programmer and a virgin LokPilot; read the entire configuration of this decoder; and write the file back to each of the two FLIRT decoders. This is a perfect example of how DCC keeps on catching me out, and why I repeatedly find it so difficult. It is almost as though me and DCC were never meant to come together, though I have now forced the issue with my Heybridge Railway!

The decoders have been consisted as the Flirt has two drive bogies. Took me ages to find this out as there is no service sheet on the Hornby website.

I assume there is a Lokpilot in each drive car and I would reset the decoders separately. If programming on the main then you have to switch the track power off and back on after entering CV8=8. For each drive car I would set CV19=0 (or 128) which disables the consisting then CV8=8.

btw - the decoder default settings are in the Lokpilot 5 manual - page 20, CV table, end column. ESU - Electronic Solutions Ulm GmbH & Co. KG: Digital decoders

 

[RichardG]

The decoders have been consisted as the Flirt has two drive bogies.

The two decoders might have been consisted, but haven't been. They both have CV19=0.

I can change CV19 to another value, I used 128. I can see that this new setting has been accepted. When I apply CV8=8 to do a factory reset, the value of CV19 changes to 0, but the value of other CVs (for example, CV29) remain resolutely unchanged. As I say, the person who programmed the decoders has done it in such a way as to make their own values the new default values. If there were a dozen CVs I could work through them one by one, but there are hundreds. The task is monumental without a programmer able to re-write every CV with the factory value in one go.

I'd best go back to Coastal DCC and see if they can overwrite the unwanted default values with the usual factory defaults.
I'd best leave the FLIRT alone, enjoy the pretty lights and try to salvage one or two of the dormant LokPilot4's.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

As I say, the person who programmed the decoders has done it in such a way as to make their own values the new default values.

I suspect what they have done is lock the decoders using CVs 15 and 16 to prevent accidental resetting as each decoder is likely to have different values in the lighting functions and in CV29 (forward/reverse). I can see why they have done this as if they were unlocked and you reset them while the whole train is on the track the decoders will both drive cab forward and want to pull apart. If I were able to read CV29 I would expect to see one at the default value and one with the default value + 1 (reverse direct of travel to ensure both drive bogies move in the same direction).

Sound decoders are generally locked to protect the developers intellectual rights - except for the free sound files you can download.

To unlock a decoder CV15=CV16. You could always try CV15=0 then CV8=8 to see if this works. Otherwise you're onto the long haul by keying 1 to 255 into CV15 to try and find the match for CV16.

Or on the other hand leave well alone as you've concluded.

 

[Rob R]

I suspect what they have done is lock the decoders using CVs 15 and 16 to prevent accidental resetting as each decoder is likely to have different values in the lighting functions and in CV29 (forward/reverse). I can see why they have done this as if they were unlocked and you reset them while the whole train is on the track the decoders will both drive cab forward and want to pull apart. If I were able to read CV29 I would expect to see one at the default value and one with the default value + 1 (reverse direct of travel to ensure both drive bogies move in the same direction).

Sound decoders are generally locked to protect the developers intellectual rights - except for the free sound files you can download.

To unlock a decoder CV15=CV16. You could always try CV15=0 then CV8=8 to see if this works. Otherwise you're onto the long haul by keying 1 to 255 into CV15 to try and find the match for CV16.

Or on the other hand leave well alone as you've concluded.

Being a bear of little brain, could you not just reverse one set of motor leads?
Or is that too easy?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Being a bear of little brain, could you not just reverse one set of motor leads?
Or is that too easy?

That would be the logical solution but I have no way of telling how Hornby wired the driving cars. As I can see they are essentially the same vehicle except one is turned around. If they are wried identically then when placed on the track you would expect them either to move apart or come together when the power is turned on. There could be something in their circuit board to change the direction of one car or they could be wired correctly for analogue operation. It could be that installing a decoder affects the circuitry meaning the decoder has to be programmed to recognise this. I just don't know - but could experiment as I have a 3-SUB with a drive bogie at either end - and two ESU Lokpilots on a shelf somewhere .

Looking at the Flirt family of multiple units I don't understand why Hornby didn't design the drive to fit in the in the drive unit like the prototype and treat it like a Bo-Bo. Instead they used two drive bogies.

 

[RichardG]

As I can see they are essentially the same vehicle except one is turned around.

Well, yes and no!

Both of my decoders have CV29=30, so Hornby must have used the wiring to resolve the matter of having both bogies running in the same direction.

Depending on whether you have a 3- or 4-car set, the train is supplied (and divides) in different places. On the shorter train, one driving car is permanently attached to the dummy power pack; on the longer train, both driving cars are permanently attached to an inner coach while the power pack detaches from both.

I suspect, there is no wiring going into or through the dummy power pack on either version. So both versions work electrically as two trains, one tied onto each end of the power pack. This arrangement has let Hornby make a model which divides to go into the box and doesn't need user-pluggable wiring within the train.

The internal wiring of the two driving cars must be subtly different. I haven't deduced the details, but a pair of decoders configured for a 3-car set also supports a 4-car set just as well, except the decoders have to be swapped across between the two driving cars. If you put them in the wrong cars, the train runs fine but the lighting functions are adrift. I know this because I have a 3-car set and the two decoders arrived labelled up for installing into a 4-car set.

Probably the best feature of this model is the way Hornby put the decoders on the roof. You can take them in and out without disturbing the formation of the train, or indeed opening it up. What peeves me is the functionality of the lighting is wrong. For example you might see a unit parked in the depot with red marker lights showing at both ends and all the interior lighting switched off. The model doesn't let you do this, which was why I saw it as a source of two reusable LokPilots. This is one model I have no desire at all to open up or take to pieces, so I'd best leave the two decoders alone too

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Both of my decoders have CV29=30

This is the factory default setting - 28/128 speed steps (bit 1=2), Analoge control enabled (bit 2=4), Railcom enabled (bit 3=8) and complex speed curve (bit 4=16).

You can take them in and out without disturbing the formation of the train, or indeed opening it up.

That is a good feature.

What peeves me is the functionality of the lighting is wrong. For example you might see a unit parked in the depot with red marker lights showing at both ends and all the interior lighting switched off.

I expect this can be done in the function mapping. I might just give this a try in one of my HO locos.

 

[simond]

In the programmer debate, I have not seen the suggestion of JMRI + the Lenz 23151 USB/LAN computer interface. This then allows the use of a mobile phone or tablet as a controller, using WiThrottle or similar apps. Decoder pro allows programming. I bought one years back, and find it versatile.

 

[RichardG]

I wish I could buy a ready-made programmer, self-contained with a touch screen, a graphical user interface, and terminals to connect to a programming track. Something which reads the identity of the decoder, retrieves its capabilities from the Internet, and shows the user a selection of screens tailored to support the device in their locomotive.

The nearest I can see is marrying the Raspberry Pi version of the SPROG to a Pi with a touch screen, an Internet connection and DecoderPro. And a bit of track. This would create a self-contained programmer which could be kept in a cupboard and brought out for use, and which doesn't need setting up each time with loads of wires and a computer.

There must be a sound reason why such a box of tricks doesn't exist off the shelf, and the best I can think of is the manufacturers of decoders want modellers to commit to their brand and use their programmer; and this leaves no third party able to make enough money from such a "universal" product to make it viable.

 

[DonWillsmer]

A cheap PC ( the one you replaced with an up grade last year to run JMRI with a cheap DCCEX set up. Since you are not using much power a cheap motor shield L298P . less than £20 for a MEGA and shield. DCC EX free to download. JMRI free too.
If will run Decoder pro for you and can run the loco too fairly cheap for the work bench.
You could just use you own laptop as you wont be doing anything ellse while doing it.
The DCCEX is a full system you do not need to add a WiFi shield unless you want to.

The problem with a self contained unit is if you are running JMRI it needs to be on something that can be a USB host the RPI would work but I dont know how good the touch screen would be for decoder pro unless a big screen.

Don

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

In the programmer debate, I have not seen the suggestion of JMRI + the Lenz 23151 USB/LAN computer interface. This then allows the use of a mobile phone or tablet as a controller, using WiThrottle or similar apps. Decoder pro allows programming. I bought one years back, and find it versatile.

Are you using the Lenz interface with a router purchased specifically for this or the household router provided by the broadband supplier?