Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

From my perspective it's most rewarding to receive so many "Likes" for the photos on this thread and makes the continuing effort to show the photos really worthwhile. I'm also aware that there are a few who don't add their "Likes" but are regular viewers because of the comments they leave. Thank you all.

Larry - I never saw a B16 let alone rode behind one. I'd always thought of them as fast freight locos but like many others (LNER V2s, LSWR S15s and Black 5s) to name but three were capable of putting in passenger train performance when required.

This is one of the “Views inside the Roundhouse at Old Oak Common” on 21st October 1962. Although identification of the various locos is not possible the photo is a reminder of a working, busy and enormous MPD and for me exudes atmosphere.



Another view in Old Oak on 21st October 1962. The locos are clearly 15XX Class 0-6-0 PTs but not identified. A later photo suggests the loco on the right could be 1504.



A very underexposed image inside the roundhouse at Old Oak Common on 21st October 1962. From the left Modified Hall 6988 Swithland Hall, another Modified Hall with a number starting 696- but not identified and Hall 4903 Astley Hall. Swithland Hall home shed was Bristol Barrow Road and it moved to Westbury in September 1963 where it was withdrawn on 5th October 1964. (SLS. It was then reported at Hayes Bridgend on 27th October 1964 (WHTS) although WHTS also report it as in store at Westbury from September to November 1964. It was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database). Astley Hall was last seen in post #1192 and at the time of this photo had been allocated to Gloucester Horton Road since early October 1962, moving to Old Oak Common in November the same year, then Taunton in June 1963, Southall in September 1963 and then Worcester in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in October (SLS), going to Steel Supply Co, Jersey Marine (WHTS), where it was scrapped by the end of April 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Of the three pannier tanks, the one on the extreme left isn't a 15xx, the narrower chimney and handrail along the tankside point to another, quite possibly a non-condensing 97xx which Old Oak had a few. Of the 10 15xx built, five had been withdrawn by the time of the photo which leaves 1500/3/4/6/7, all allocated to Old Oak, not a massive help really.
Martin

 

[SimonT]

It's a 94, but no idea which one. High Belpaire firebox, four knob handrail on the tank side.

And to name a fourth ........?

 

[oldravendale]

Actually I recognise and recognised the half seen loco on the let of the shot as a 94XX but chose to ignore it... The subjects are, after all, the two 15XX panniers. As for the numbers, in this shot they are of relatively minor importance.

B

 

[Genghis]

Larry - I never saw a B16 let alone rode behind one. I'd always thought of them as fast freight locos but like many others (LNER V2s, LSWR S15s and Black 5s) to name but three were capable of putting in passenger train performance when required.

A good friend of mine, who in his career at London Underground was responsible for the pannier tanks, tells me that his favourite memory of loco performance was on the relief Mid Day Scot from Euston. Euston to Crewe behind a Britannia, Crewe to Carlisle behind a 'Big Un' and then horror of horrors, a Black 5 for the rest of the journey. He expected to be looped at Beattock, but not. The crew whistled that they were going for it and did. They went for it, and although down to 30 at the top, they made it. He remembers more of that part of the journey than the rest!

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks all for the continuing comments. Regrettably I have no first hand experience of an outstanding run behind steam. I'm aware that, despite their performance on the West Coast main line they were not liked by all railwaymen. Yorkshire Dave has already referred to the use of Black 5s as reported by his father whose comment went along the lines of "as soon as we knew they'd put a Black 5 on the front we'd lose time". I can't remember whether that was on the ex GCR lines but if so the poor performance was doubtless down to negligent maintenance. Edit. By coincidence I was just updating the file about a Scottish Black 5 and came across the original comment from Dave which said that the poor performance was on the Midland Main Line which is a surprise as they were widely used there.

15XX pannier tank 1504 inside Old Oak Common shed on 21st October 1962. This has featured in many previous posts so if of interest a search will be required. 1504 was an Old Oak Common engine for all its short life being withdrawn in early May 1963. (SLS). It went to T W Ward at Briton Ferry where it was scrapped by May 1964. (Rail UK) Looking at the surrounding accoutrements I suspect that this is the loco on the right of the two above in post #3461.



An unidentified and withdrawn Castle in Old Oak Common Yard on 21st October 1962. Of note is the coal piled high in the tender suggesting that withdrawal came as a bit of a surprise!



The cab of what I believe to be a withdrawn King at Old Oak Common on 21st October 1962. Sadly no other details are available. The tender looks well loaded again, as does the one below.



A line of withdrawn locos at Old Oak Common on 21st October 1962. The overall good condition suggests it’s only recently been withdrawn and there are also no enthusiast chalk marks to identify it. Kings withdrawn from OOC were 6004 19th June 1962, 6005 20th November 1962, 6009 30th September 1962, 6011 18th December 1962, 6018 also 18th December 1962, 6021 21st September 1962, 6023 19th June 1962, 6025 18th December 1962, 6026 12th September 1962, 6028 20th November 1962 and 6029 24th July 1962. Considering the date of the photo withdrawals after 21st October 1962 cannot qualify. Both Tim and I have a photo of 6023 and in both there is a row of panniers behind so it's not that one. The most recent withdrawal before the date of the photo is 6009 and the condition of this one suggests it to be the most likely candidate, although 6004, 6021, 6023, 6026 and 6029 cannot be discounted as none were actually scrapped before the date of the photo.

WHTS advises 6004 was stopped at Cardiff Canton and dispatched from there to Swindon so although an Old Oak engine was not physically there at the time of withdrawal. 6021 was in store at Old Oak before being dispatched to Cashmore’s, Newport. 6023 was also reportedly in store at Cardiff Canton and this is repeated in the “Preserved British Steam Locomotives” site so my own supposed sighting at Old Oak may be in error – in the case of withdrawn locos it was my practice to check the numbers stamped in to the motion believing these to be an accurate reference, but perhaps not. 6026 was reported as in store at Old Oak as was 6029 so remain a possible.

In short this was rather a wasted exercise as I’ve narrowed the field to three possibles!



We'll get back to some working locos later - Tim was never very keen on photos of withdrawn locos.

Brian

 

[AJC]

The footplate shot is definitely a King - the pair of (red) route availability/power discs was unique to the class.

Adam

 

[SimonT]

Brian,
I'm not sure looking at the actual Allocations Book is going to help! Of your choices, here are the allocations.

6004 St Rd. 5Apr61 Shopped SDN, 3Aug61 CDF, 15Jun62 Cond, 31Jul62 SDN.
6009 OOC 16Mar62 Shopped SDN, 18Jun62 OOC, 3Aug62 Stored. 7Sep62 Cond.
6021 OOC 21Jul61 Shopped SDN, 25Sep61 OOC, 7Sep62 Cond.
6023 CDF 23Jun61 Shopped SDN, 9Mar CDF, 23Jun 62 Cond.
6029 OOC 13 Jan Shopped SDN, 29Mar61 OOC, 23JUl62 Cond.
The Allocations Book didn't record where the loco was condemened as I suspect at the time nobody cared.

I suspect that St Rd is Wolverhampton Stafford Road although I always thought that Oxley handled the Northern Kings.

7 Sep 62 was a black day for the Kings as 6002, 6007, 6009, 6014, 6015, 6016, 6019, 6012, 6022, 6026 and 6027 are recorded as condemned. That left four to last until Nov and then the last three until 21Dec to be condemned. Sounds like a management edict.

I can send you the image of the appropriate page of the book if you want to play Stick the Tail on the Donkey!

Simon

 

[Roger Pound]

It was quite well known among enthusiasts in the East Midlands that anything from the Midland Region cascaded to the GC to replace B1 and V2 classes for passenger working was automatically disliked by GC crews, generally speaking. Pictures in "Great Central Twilight " by Colin Walker provide an example of a crews feelings when faced with having a 'Jubilee' allocated for their next working. When the axe finally fell on the line, many of the staff migrated across to the London Midland shed where steam was still extant and carried on their careers, undoubtedly on Black 5's and other Midland types they had come across on the GC .

There was the odd factor that GC engine-men always seemed to be alright with the Stanier 8F locos, frequently seen on that line a number of years before run-down and closure. Perhaps there was something in the fact that the former LNER management had a class of several of these machines (Class 06) which had been transferred to the LMS in 1947 and were renumbered in to the LMS series. They became 48705 - 48772 in BR days .

The question of maintenance on the cascaded locos will always remain a factor in this argument, but I'm afraid that I am insufficiently qualified to discuss that aspect further. My simple view has long been that it all came down as a "horses for courses" situation! Make of that what you wish. No doubt those of you with greater knowledge and experience of this latter point will be able to advise.

Roger