St. Mary Hoo - P4 Southern Region third rail
- Thread starter Simon Glidewell
- Start date
Simon Glidewell
Western Thunderer
Simon
Flying Squad
This is a brilliant thread, nautical diversions included.
Born in Chatham, and initially growing up in Deptford, with family in Kent, I think some docks-ish stuff must have rubbed off on me along with a love of all things Southern Electric.
I have a really nice 3' long "bread and butter" built oil tanker that my uncle Norman built for me in 1969, he had been a fireman at Gillingham shed and I hold him largely responsible for my obsession with trains and model making. He later worked in "the nick" and running the workshop gave him access to materials, including cedar from which he built "Simcas". Even now, the best part of 50 years later, when you take off the deck cover to access the batteries you get a fantastic blast of that lovely Cedar smell.
Another favourite (great) uncle Mark had been a steel buyer at Ford and retired to Thorpe Bay. I loved visiting as he had a peanut dispenser in the garden room(!) and we'd go on the fantastic pier railway. He passed away some years ago but we have his mantelpiece clock ticking away in our hallway, I think it was a wedding gift to him and auntie Maude.
Apologies for that gratuitous trip down memory lane
Really nice to see Colin Parks contributing here too, I hugely admire his modelling.
And back to Simon's model, I think the 73 is really convincing.
Simon
Born in Chatham, and initially growing up in Deptford, with family in Kent, I think some docks-ish stuff must have rubbed off on me along with a love of all things Southern Electric.
I have a really nice 3' long "bread and butter" built oil tanker that my uncle Norman built for me in 1969, he had been a fireman at Gillingham shed and I hold him largely responsible for my obsession with trains and model making. He later worked in "the nick" and running the workshop gave him access to materials, including cedar from which he built "Simcas". Even now, the best part of 50 years later, when you take off the deck cover to access the batteries you get a fantastic blast of that lovely Cedar smell.
Another favourite (great) uncle Mark had been a steel buyer at Ford and retired to Thorpe Bay. I loved visiting as he had a peanut dispenser in the garden room(!) and we'd go on the fantastic pier railway. He passed away some years ago but we have his mantelpiece clock ticking away in our hallway, I think it was a wedding gift to him and auntie Maude.
Apologies for that gratuitous trip down memory lane
Really nice to see Colin Parks contributing here too, I hugely admire his modelling.
And back to Simon's model, I think the 73 is really convincing.
Simon
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
I was a bit worried last night that I had perhaps got a bit over excited and too carried away, not only taking the thread off topic but maybe even breaking the rules? Not good for a new boy at that either!
Then I read Simon's (Flying Squad) post this morning. I must apologise for taking a while to respond, but I just didn't know quite how to say thank you, or anything else!
As artists and model makers we share a great gift. Memory is a bit like smoke, it is shapeless and fleeting, fragmentary and somewhat abstract. It can suddenly billow up, then be lost in an instant. It is also the primary source of our imagination. Yet we have a unique ability, we can somehow grab hold of the stuff and turn it into something tangible! As Simon G. puts it, to be able to "transport myself (there) anytime I want to".
Heaven only knows, but are we all feeling rather vulnerable at this present time of political, economic and social upheaval, not just in the UK and Europe, but beyond? Has this perhaps generated a greater need to feel that we have some solid ground beneath our feet? Our passions
a perfect antidote for insecurity? I will admit that as a result of making all the wrong life choices, ( I can blame none but myself) I will probably be amongst the first to fall if things get really mucky, and can ill afford to spend the time let alone finance any of the things I would like to do. So my greatest pleasure comes from sharing memories, stories and ideas and reading those others of like mind, in the hope that they would not only amuse, but act as a spur for all of us to get going. Priceless!
I am really looking forward to seeing some more electrics, 3 rail, LT 4 rail, OHLE, docks, mud flats and ships, both sail and steam or indeed anything that is challenging or perhaps unusual that might spring from threads like this.
Pete.
Then I read Simon's (Flying Squad) post this morning. I must apologise for taking a while to respond, but I just didn't know quite how to say thank you, or anything else!
As artists and model makers we share a great gift. Memory is a bit like smoke, it is shapeless and fleeting, fragmentary and somewhat abstract. It can suddenly billow up, then be lost in an instant. It is also the primary source of our imagination. Yet we have a unique ability, we can somehow grab hold of the stuff and turn it into something tangible! As Simon G. puts it, to be able to "transport myself (there) anytime I want to".
Heaven only knows, but are we all feeling rather vulnerable at this present time of political, economic and social upheaval, not just in the UK and Europe, but beyond? Has this perhaps generated a greater need to feel that we have some solid ground beneath our feet? Our passions
a perfect antidote for insecurity? I will admit that as a result of making all the wrong life choices, ( I can blame none but myself) I will probably be amongst the first to fall if things get really mucky, and can ill afford to spend the time let alone finance any of the things I would like to do. So my greatest pleasure comes from sharing memories, stories and ideas and reading those others of like mind, in the hope that they would not only amuse, but act as a spur for all of us to get going. Priceless!
I am really looking forward to seeing some more electrics, 3 rail, LT 4 rail, OHLE, docks, mud flats and ships, both sail and steam or indeed anything that is challenging or perhaps unusual that might spring from threads like this.
Pete.
Simon Glidewell
Western Thunderer
Pete, you and Simon and all the other kind souls who have commented on my scratchings about on a piece of rough turf south east of London town, warms the cockles immensely and makes the layout and all the sundry odds and sods that it has provoked, well worth the effort! I did write a lengthy response to Simon's lovely words above (you probably saw them) but I deleted them because I felt what I said might have seemed a tad near the knuckle for some, but all I was doing was showing passion for my particular niche and standing up for the avant garde and experimenters. I was rather miffed by some comments on a rival forum about working pantographs and third rail being very "Marklin" in ethos, because we now have DCC! What those who subscribe to this rather dull vision fail to fathom, is that making difficult and complex railway things in model form work (point rodding - Howard Bolton in P4 - third rail; catenary, etc, etc) is a wonderful challenge and it's great knowing that your invention does what the real thing does! Priceless!
Simon
Simon
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
It is a funny thing Simon, but I was talking to a friend only yesterday about Chris Tolhurst (TME) and his latest gauge 1 King Arthur locos. He said, almost with an air of incredulity, "did you know, Chris has even made (so and so) fully working?"
Now, I have heard some ask "what was the point of doing that?", yet the undeniable artistry and sheer engineering quality of the finished product, like really good poetry or music can leave anyone utterly speechless in awe! I rather imagine that TME customers would fully agree with that!
A thing of beauty is a joy forever, and it must surely always bring pleasure to see something that someone has clearly taken a great deal of trouble and care to push their abilities to the limit. I am only too painfully aware of my own shortcomings, so I'm always impressed by the efforts of others who declare a similar aim!!
Pete.
Now, I have heard some ask "what was the point of doing that?", yet the undeniable artistry and sheer engineering quality of the finished product, like really good poetry or music can leave anyone utterly speechless in awe! I rather imagine that TME customers would fully agree with that!
A thing of beauty is a joy forever, and it must surely always bring pleasure to see something that someone has clearly taken a great deal of trouble and care to push their abilities to the limit. I am only too painfully aware of my own shortcomings, so I'm always impressed by the efforts of others who declare a similar aim!!
Pete.
Simon Glidewell
Western Thunderer
The day of reckoning arrived this afternoon with the first electrical tests of the bisected junction. I have been following a wiring diagram kindly supplied by fellow member Neil. As yet I haven't succeeded in getting the whole piece of track to work yet with several shorts. Strangely though; the most complex section (the CEGB bisection that you see the 08 running on without derailing!) works perfectly, if a little lumpy at the moment. The latter will be cured once the track is laid onto cork on its baseboard, with each tiny length of rail more firmly levelled and secured. Obviously all the horrible wires you see will disappear under ballast and general vegetation. Eventually I will fully detail the point with cosmetic fishplates; tiebars, etc, and of course third rail.
Simon Glidewell
Western Thunderer
Absolutely Pete. My third rail gives me tremendous pleasure and satisfaction; don't ask me to explain why because there is no logical explanation for something you can't really see, apart from the odd arc/spark (but even those are rare). It's just knowing that the conductor rail is live and carrying current. It has naturally developed little spots of carbon and oil on the surface, just like the real thing. Being a complete loony I like to run the class 73 up and down; up and down just to watch the pick up shoes in action. It's akin to that scene from "One foot in the grave" where Victor keeps opening and closing his newly shaved sitting room door over the carpet (annoying Margaret in the process!). Apart from the third rail I am working on plans to include some working SR simple catenary (as used at Hoo Junction and a number of other venues on the SR system) to the coal wharf (if I ever get the above point electrically sorted) for a future class 71 to use. I would choose the Hornby model without question as the other make has too many avoidable errors, not least in the weird body profile (when seen longitudinally; to my eyes at this angle it resembles a new fictitious class, with an odd flare at the cab base, like District Line COP stock, and a flat profile around the cab windows). The shoe beams are wrong; all having a foot board attached, whereas in reality only the leading beams had these. Rain strips on all variants. The sand boxes are wrong for the early green models (as the NRM loco was used as the CAD sample, and represents the class at the end of their years). The original sand boxes were a different shape with a longer profile; this incidentally is the only error I can find on an otherwise superb Hornby model. Unlike the Hornby offering we are given a non working pantograph and no engine room detail, and as far as those handrails are concerned... well say no more! The excuses for not providing a working pantograph in 2016 are ridiculous quite frankly. And yes, if you are ingenious there is a way to operate the pantograph changeover switch on the Hornby loco without having to remove it from the track. Mine would realistically change from third rail to overhead without anyone knowing (Roco make a pantograph motor if one is feeling very adventurous)! Watch this space. I take my hat off to Hornby for getting a lovely looking and important model to us on time without waffle and dubious artistic licence involved. With a few tweaks here and there, such as closing the gap between the body and bogies; P4 spoked wheels (although there are none available that are an exact match to the eleven spoke, 4 footers) and some reworking of the bogie cable runs (separate detailing parts) a wonderful looking machine will roll out of Thongcaster works! Working third rail pick ups to boot...
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Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Of course with the 73 it's also having a sound decoder to switch from electric to diesel traction and vice versa.
Simon Glidewell
Western Thunderer
Now that would be nice Dave! Sadly my layout is DC...
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Spoked wheels - reminiscent of the SBB Re 4/4 and Ae 6/6 and BLS Ae and Re 4/4 classes.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
When my sons were nippers I built a roundy-roundy in 4mm that could be quickly set up in the dining room, hung from those slot type shelf brackets screwed to the walls! I deliberately set the track "hard" and ballasted straight onto the boards, then carefully filed exaggerated joints at scale lengths. The resulting noise was quite acceptable for diesel traction but was exquisite for carriage stock. I could, or maybe I did drift into a trance running on that. It was probably only my dear wife grumbling about having to limbo under the lines to hand me a cuppa that broke it? If southern electrics had been available off the shelf in those days, the poor little lads would never have got a look in?
Pete.
Pete.
Simon Glidewell
Western Thunderer
Peter, you most definitely have the writer in you! Your anecdotes would make a nice book.
Simon Glidewell
Western Thunderer
I'm still having problems with the wiring of the bisected point. Attached is Neil's original wiring diagram which I have followed very carefully. I've managed to get track C working and A and B partially but only at the switch blade end; after crossing onto the yellow section of the plan there appears to be no power. Then if you push the loco by hand over the green crossing it starts moving in the opposite direction to that of the switch blade area, meaning that the polarities are all wrong. I'm not sure how to solve this one! I knew it would be a nightmare, but at least locos and stock are passing through the crossings smoothly with no derailments. Any electrical experts here? Advice would be much appreciated!
Cheers
Simon
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Hi Simon
I'm not an electrician but my logic would be (apologies if this appears simple or has the 'teaching one to suck eggs' approach):
1. Check the crossing to see if all rails are insulated and the rail breaks are in the correct place and cut through. I would also check for dry solder joints the the switches to see if they are functioning correctly and not shorting internally. I've been caught out by this lot on many an occasion .
2. Disconnect all the frog wires; green, yellow and magenta.
3. Common all the red
4. Common all the blue
This would make the whole crossing live except the frogs.
5. Reattach the green frog and test loco for routes A and B. There may be stalling as yellow and green are still disconnected.
If that works we'll know A and B are correctly wired
6. Reattach the yellow frog and test routes A and B again with independent switch down. It should go all the way through to route A and may stall on route B as magenta is still disconnected
7. Test route C with independent switch up (again may stall as magenta is still disconnected)
8. Disconnect yellow
9. Connect magenta and test route C again with independent switch up (again may stall as yellow is disconnected)
10. If okay then reconnect yellow and test route C again.
If it does not work the conflict is between magenta and yellow.
Then have a few pints of beer!
I'm not an electrician but my logic would be (apologies if this appears simple or has the 'teaching one to suck eggs' approach):
1. Check the crossing to see if all rails are insulated and the rail breaks are in the correct place and cut through. I would also check for dry solder joints the the switches to see if they are functioning correctly and not shorting internally. I've been caught out by this lot on many an occasion .
2. Disconnect all the frog wires; green, yellow and magenta.
3. Common all the red
4. Common all the blue
This would make the whole crossing live except the frogs.
5. Reattach the green frog and test loco for routes A and B. There may be stalling as yellow and green are still disconnected.
If that works we'll know A and B are correctly wired
6. Reattach the yellow frog and test routes A and B again with independent switch down. It should go all the way through to route A and may stall on route B as magenta is still disconnected
7. Test route C with independent switch up (again may stall as magenta is still disconnected)
8. Disconnect yellow
9. Connect magenta and test route C again with independent switch up (again may stall as yellow is disconnected)
10. If okay then reconnect yellow and test route C again.
If it does not work the conflict is between magenta and yellow.
Then have a few pints of beer!
Simon Glidewell
Western Thunderer
You're a star Dave! Many thanks for taking the time to write all of that; much appreciated! I will try out your suggestions tomorrow and report back in due course. Electrics and woodwork are beyond me, hard though I try. The point itself was very carefully isolated throughout and I've tested each section break for shorts and all is OK there. I was surprised that the most complex part of the point worked first time, as there are so many isolated sections there and tiny bits of rail; that pleased me at the very least!
jonte
Western Thunderer
Stands back in amazement! A simple 'like' was insufficient in praise of this maze of rails and chairs, Simon. Keep going; it's worth cracking the electrical conundrum. Well done!
Simon Glidewell
Western Thunderer
Thanks Jonte for your usual kind comments; always appreciated!
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Thanks to you too Simon for your kind words about my prose. Funny you should say that, but I've been working on one for the last seven years!
Cheers, Pete.
Cheers, Pete.