Martin Finney

[djparkins]

All of Martin's Art work is done in DesignCad, its partly why there are often components in the kit that really should be castings but are laminated etches because Martin is very good at drawing in CAD. Slide bars were the most annoying thing on the V2.

Richard

Richard –

I think this is a subjective observation and is really down to personal preference.

I’m a very big fan of the MOK kits but I would prefer it if more of the valve gear was laminated etched rather than tedious cast brass or nickel silver. I would also like more of the non-functioning castings to be in white metal.

For me, I think Finney kits have the right mix of WM against lost wax and etched N/S against etched brass. I also like that the metal is not overkill thick!

The only real problem [and this applies to most kits in 7mm as far as I can see] is the lack of isometric drawings in the instructions. I find the MF instructions very hard to follow. And don’t even get me started on photographs used as a format for instructions. But again this is all subjective.

Regards,

DJP/MMP

 

[djparkins]

.......is retiring next year.

http://website.lineone.net/~cbwesson/future_plans2014.htm

Get your kits while you can

Richard

Please can we please inject a little realism into this discussion. Mickoo's postings are the only ones that so far IMHO do this.

Firstly 9400 loco kits [mixture of both 4 & 7mm] over 27 years equals only 1.04 loco kits per day sold, over a range of nearly 50 loco kits. I do not think that is many and it certainly would only provide reasonable sustenance for one man, not a consortium!

I have experience of selling ranges and bits of them and it was for me THE way to make some big money out of 7mm. I have just done it again with part of one of our military ranges. When I sold Post-War Prototypes to RJH in 1988 it enabled me to buy my two cottages in Wales [together with the nuclear bomb-proof duck house] almost outright. But believe me, most of you would not have wanted to put in the 80+ [sometimes 100] hour weeks over 8 years that it took to turn it into a range of 96 kits.

The fact that it has been virtually destroyed since matters not a jot to me really, as I just walked away from it and started something new. RJH paid me also for the PWP name but never used it. If you think a manufacturer who is retiring is going to sell you a range cheaper because you are a group of enthusiasts, I would, as Mickoo says, think again.

Now I would never presume to speak on behalf on MF [other than being a very satisfied owner of four of his loco kits] or any other manufacturer but I simply cannot imagine him wanting to sell on his range for less than £1000.00 per kit averaged out - it matters not if most of the 4mm ones are also in 7mm or vice-versa. All that work! And I would think that if he could not get a figure he was truly happy with he might just choose to keep it in case someone comes along one day who will pay it. But who knows? Not any of us. It is Martin's range, his hard work and is his to do with as he sees fit. There is no rule that says the range HAS to survive.

Now, everyone is lamenting that they want to buy his locos and have perhaps very little time to do so. Better perhaps to have purchased them when they were released – that is certainly when the manufacturer needs the money!!!.

As regards a consortium [a few blokes] to buy it I tend to agree with Richard that happy bunnies would be more likely with, say, five of you each putting in £10,000.00 [or whatever it takes] and jointly deciding on a way to extract the maximum return from it, rather than 50 of you putting in £1000 each!

Anyway, you are all assuming that Adrian doesn’t buy it first. He does the casting for the range after all!

Have fun!

DJP/MMP

 

[Eastsidepilot]

What's the betting it gets bought never to be seen again..........

Col.

 

[mickoo]

What's the betting it gets bought never to be seen again..........

Col.

Then that'd leave the door open to anyone else to produce some items that are not duplicated in other ranges

 

[SteveO]

I think Adrian has enough on his plate already to have an interest, especially if he does the castings and holds the masters.

I think you may be a little on the cynical side, David. The line "open to all offers" doesn't sound like someone who is purely thinking about a return on investment. However, I may be wrong.

Working on your valuation, 27 locos and 14 tenders would probably command approx £35k, plus another couple for the accessories. However, calculating its value with modern business valuation methods based on earnings multiples (3 is typical), 30 kits per year @ £300 multiplied by 3 and we get a figure £10k less. We won't know anything until one of us asks, though.

 

[alcazar]

If it goes to ABS, the chances of it being lost are quite high, sadly. It seems to be his way.

Personally, I'd be up for putting money in, not to make any profit, but to keep the range available, both for myself and for others.

I'd love to be in a position to purchase it outright, and another business for a large range of small but important parts mentioned recently, but sadly, can have neither.

 

[djparkins]

I think Adrian has enough on his plate already to have an interest, especially if he does the castings and holds the masters.

I think you may be a little on the cynical side, David. The line "open to all offers" doesn't sound like someone who is purely thinking about a return on investment. However, I may be wrong.

Working on your valuation, 27 locos and 14 tenders would probably command approx £35k, plus another couple for the accessories. However, calculating its value with modern business valuation methods based on earnings multiples (3 is typical), 30 kits per year @ £300 multiplied by 3 and we get a figure £10k less. We won't know anything until one of us asks, though.

Ah - my suggestion of price was for both scales and I was not including tenders as separate items since you need 'em. For just the 7mm you would want to average more than a £1000 per kit I would think - but I agree that it would bring you nearer to the £35,000 mark.

Your other calculation is surely way out. Where are you getting the 30 kits a year figure from. If the sales average just over 1 kit per day and I'm sure at least half that figure is going to be 7mm then that is around 150 kits per year [still not many] then your formula that would bring it back to £50,000 which was my estimate for both scales! And don't forget that kits like the Bulleid or Duchess will cost you well over £600.

But as you say, none of us will know unless we ask. If the price is £10,000.00 you will not get the range because I shall simply way outbid you!

Regards,

DJP

 

[SteveO]

Haha! I like your thinking.

Let's make some assumptions (dangerous, I know). Firstly, ignoring the 4mm range, and assuming that sales are spread throughout the range, a loco and tender average price is £325 – slightly higher than the figure I quoted above. It's also pretty well documented and evidenced that kit building in general has waned severely over the last 27 years, so the majority of those 9400 sales would have been in the first half of MF's lifespan, dropping off quite dramatically over the last five years or so.

Even an optimistic sales rate of one per week averaged throughout the year would only realise a turnover of £17k (60-70% of that given over to pre-tax costs). On a multiple of 3 that would make the value £50k approx. Take that sales rate down to 30 kits per year and we're looking at a value of £30k. I would guess that the real figure may be somewhere between those.

However, with all that being said, a business (like so many other things) is only worth what someone else is prepared to pay for it. With the model railway kit market in decline (arguably a little more stable now) the value to a purchaser is very much negotiable in their favour. But we really need to look at the books to confirm any of these assumptions and numbers.

 

[mickoo]

Steve, some kits are nearly double that price you note, over £400 for the loco alone, MF requires tenders as extras on top of that price

 

[ZiderHead]

3x turnover? Give me a couple of weeks and I'll find some businesses I can sell you! Many small and niche businesses take forever to sell because its very hard to find an "investor" who grossly overvalues the business as much as the vendor …

 

[djparkins]

But we really need to look at the books to confirm any of these assumptions and numbers.

Best of luck with that!

 

[alcazar]

David, I wish you were going to Telford, I'd love to meet you.

 

[djparkins]

David, I wish you were going to Telford, I'd love to meet you.

Jeff -

I was sitting out on the patio at the rear of my work building the other morning looking at the wooded dell from which the stone was originally quarried to build the main cottage. It was a lovely morning, the birds were in full song and I was eating a fresh papaya and thinking 'I wish I was going to Telford' [!!!].

Top this though - got bitten in the leg by an adder later in the day - only a juvenile and hardly any venom delivered but it hurt like hell! I spent 25 years helping look after rattlesnakes [never bitten once] and I end up getting bitten by an adder in my own garden.

Anyway - just call in when you happen to be passing my door ! - I'll put the kettle on and get Yvonne to cook up one of her nazi recipes, such as Chicken Himmler. Who knows, you might even get bitten by an adder!

Enjoy the show.

Best,

David

 

[SteveO]

Back to the subject at hand, shall we have a show of hands of those who are interested? I've just spoken to Martin and he is a lovely, open and genuine chap. The proposition sounds good.

My hand is up already. What prospective consortium members should take into account before they raise theirs is what they are able to bring with them, not just their share of cash. I'm talking about people who can attend shows to man the stand (currently, the vast majority of sales are made at shows), those who have a web development background to encourage more online sales to even out the trading peaks, those who have supplier links and can streamline production (currently there are over 20 suppliers for kit components), and perhaps those who can develop further the current kits and over time introduce new models – or look for opportunities to incorporate others kits and bring those to the same standard and build methodology.

A show of hands here in this thread first, then we'll set up an email/telephone group to develop the idea further.

 

[mickoo]

I'm interested (dependent on how much cash needs injecting) but of the criteria you list I only fit one which is CAD etch work and I think there may be better candidates with more recognition and additional assests they can bring to the table than I

I can perhaps do the odd show in the London or Eastern area, which brings another point, someone would have to hold the core stock for shows, thus has to go to every show, or unload at service stations in a relay to those further afield.

 

[Heather Kay]

Like Mick I don't feel qualified to offer much help, least of all financial. I really just want to voice my support for the idea.

If I can offer anything, it is from my experience in the print and web design fields. I'd be willing to assist at exhibitions, too.

 

[SteveO]

I'm not too far off the same position also. As to shows, only Reading is within my immediate grasp, although with some advanced negotiating I may be able to stretch a little further afield – London and Kettering spring to mind.

To declare my financial interest, I have no overwhelming interest in making an unrealistic profit or giving up my job for this, although (not being stupid!) I would like to recover my investment with some interest. With the right approach this is entirely feasible. With five members, an absolute maximum investment of £10k is required, although this figure is very much negotiable with Martin for the right outcome. He has a figure in mind, but realises that this may not be feasible or attractive to any potential purchasers.

I'm more than happy to hold some or all of the stock, but I consider it a priority to streamline suppliers so that organisation and resupply of such is much more simplified and less time consuming – plus there may be some economies of scale associated with that, which will improve margins and reduce the return of investment period. I'm more than willing to negotiate that myself.

A thought crossed my mind – perhaps there may be someone who has casting equipment to hand that can take over the production at cost but doesn't have the initial cash investment. The costs saved would outweigh the lack of cash injection in the long run. There may be similar ways where partners could get involved without cash.

These are my thoughts and ideas, others may have different ones, but the floor is open.

 

[richard carr]

Steve

I'm interested in putting some money in as I don't want to see this range of kits disappearing.

Richard

 

[Neil]

Is the distant rumbling I hear that of a cart being put before the horse? Have any of you stepped back, had a good hard think and asked yourselves the why question? I'm guessing that some/many/most will be motivated like Richard.

Steve

I'm interested in putting some money in as I don't want to see this range of kits disappearing.

Richard

I'm not picking on you as an individual Richard; it's just that you have clearly articulated your motivation.

It seems to me that money would be better spent buying what you want (and will want) now rather than sinking that cash into some sort of business alliance that comes with no guarantees that quality will be maintained or range developed. If being a kit manufacturer features highly in your bucket list then I'd guess that you would have taken steps in that direction by now. I'm not sure that buying a 'ready to etch' business would properly entitle one to be considered as a manufacturer; I imagine that creative satisfaction per pound spent would be pretty low.

Apologies if the squelching noises from mid-Wales sound rather like a wet blanket being thrown over the whole notion, but it does surprise me that a forum populated by makers are so easily distracted by the prospect of becoming financiers.

 

[djparkins]

Is the distant rumbling I hear that of a cart being put before the horse? Have any of you stepped back, had a good hard think and asked yourselves the why question? I'm guessing that some/many/most will be motivated like Richard.



I'm not picking on you as an individual Richard; it's just that you have clearly articulated your motivation.

It seems to me that money would be better spent buying what you want (and will want) now rather than sinking that cash into some sort of business alliance that comes with no guarantees that quality will be maintained or range developed. If being a kit manufacturer features highly in your bucket list then I'd guess that you would have taken steps in that direction by now. I'm not sure that buying a 'ready to etch' business would properly entitle one to be considered as a manufacturer; I imagine that creative satisfaction per pound spent would be pretty low.

Apologies if the squelching noises from mid-Wales sound rather like a wet blanket being thrown over the whole notion, but it does surprise me that a forum populated by makers are so easily distracted by the prospect of becoming financiers.

A lot of common sense there and much food for thought.

This is partly what I was trying [clumsily perhaps] to get at earlier. I am a manufacturer and look at things through those eyes only. I've sold several ranges or parts thereof and I have purchased others [in the military field]. I did it on instinct, knowing that I had gotten the ranges at the right price to get my investment back and make a good profit to boot - adding them seamlessly into my own product ranges. In all cases it paid off. But I would never have done this by looking at it through modeller's eyes. Its a very different mindset and if you are not a manufacturer you could very easily get your fingers burn't.

Neil is probably right - you might be better off getting your kits from Martin whilst you can. After all - the range will still most probably be purchased by another manufacturer - and they then might change the kits to a format you like less or they could pass through a black hole!

DJP/MMP