Hairy Bikers and Other Petrol Heads

Max M

Max M

Western Thunderer
oldravendale said:
We're coming up for a new car for Mrs D next year. She's had a Honda Jazz for years and is pretty well wedded to them. (Great for shopping/going down the tip/moving furniture etc). Stimulated by this thread I thought I'd have a quick look to see how much a new petrol engined Jazz would be - and they are not made any more. I can, of course, get a hybrid but what's the point of using an efficient petrol engine to lug around kilos of unwanted battery?

With some sadness we'll be looking for a real non-Honda petrol engined car although I really don't know where to start.
Click to expand...
Brian, We have a plug in hybrid and 80% of our journeys are on battery power. I'm currently averaging 202m.p.g. (against 44.5 on the previous petrol model). We have solar panels and battery and currently it costs 0.9p per mile versus 16.2p if I were to run on petrol. We are also able to charge at home.
The return on investment i.e. the extra cost of battery and associated parts is currently just over 8% and will increase the longer we keep the car.
Another way of looking at this is asking if your current investments are giving that sort of return.
I take the point about lugging a motor around but IMO that is a small price to pay for the financial benefit I'm getting.

I read arguments for and against which seems pretty much dependent on which side of the fence you stand and how one chooses to present the statistics. On that basis it's almost impossible to come to a decision on who is right so we decided to go with gut feel and what our finances would stand.

I see that the Honda Jazz is a full Hybrid so how that compares with our experience of a plug in may well be different as will how the sums add up.

However before making your decision have a demo of a hybrid EV (they are nice to drive) and then do the sums. If 'the management' likes the car and the numbers add up then why not go for one? Having a demo costs nothing and you will be making your next purchase decision based on some factual evidence.
 
Max M

Max M

Western Thunderer
daifly said:
You might want to revisit your maths! If you got a respectable 10miles/litre on petrol, you should be getting 3.5 miles/kWh as a minimum, making the EV mode 10% cheaper at least even at 52p/kWh (which you're not 'currently' paying!)
Dave
Click to expand...
Agree. We currently get 4.1.
 
Rob R

Rob R

Western Thunderer
Question.
When you distil a barrel of crude oil you get a range of products, from thick gloopy bitumen to various gases with petrol and diesel somewhere in the middle. Presumeably all the other distillates still have a use so we will be distilling just as much crude oil, but, what are they going to do with all the surplus petrol and diesel?
Discuss.....
 
alastairq

alastairq

Western Thunderer
I do note that there are a number of folks with leccy cars who have all sorts of stuff like, solar panels, etc to offset the costs of charging , etc.

Which is fine if one has the wherewithal to acquire such infrastructure.
My Ex would like an electric car, but , living in a terraced house [which she rents] there is no opportunity to fit solar panels, or establish any sort of home-charging apparatus. Being a small town, there are not the vast [free?] supermarket charging points available..the nearest being a LA-provided charging point, which seems to be permanently occupied by local , well-off, Tesla owners.
The town has a large preponderance of similar styled housing [as well as modest new-build estates,I hasten to add]...so a fairly large percentage of households will share the inability to home charge. Parking is largely on-street for most, and street lamps are few & far between...when they work.

I did offer to let her use my [rented] driveway and extension lead....but given we live 6 miles apart, the savings in her running costs will be offset by my having to run back & forth in taxi mode.

I do get the feeling that there is a significant proportion of the population to whom leccy cars will be more or less denied...Whether this is an acceptable state of affairs or not, I wouldn't like to comment on.
 
alastairq

alastairq

Western Thunderer
My oldies can manage around 23 -25 mpgs....I have, last week, got, fairly locally [needs an essential trip to justify]...petrol at £1.60 a litre.

With such fuel consumptions I don't make many random or long journeys.
My current 'daily' [apparently needed if insurning old bangers, sorry, classic cars] is a 500 pensionquids suzuki GV of some 20 years of age, a petrol, 2 lighter engine.
Currently contemplating the option of either [a] welding up its sills, yet again [body mounts and 30 cm rule for MoT, dammit], using my mains electricity..or {b} splashing out on a Clarke petrol generator of some 350 pensionquids , and 3KVA [whatever that may mean in practical terms?], to run the various mains power tools and welders I have, and which I'd like to use [for example, my 9 pensionquids HAyter electric lawn mower..thankfully with the lack of rain, the rass I have isn't too bad...cats can still be seen.]
Either way, I am blanching at yet more days spent lying on my back tack welding steel onto rusty bodyflanges.
I did my other daily, [currently not used due to price of diesel, being a '94 Daihatsu 4Trak....a marvellous pensioner's tool, having zero fancy electrics, a darned gert lorry-type diesel engine, and more room for a tall inflexible bod than a LAnd rover.] sills by replacing entire sill with some 60 x 120 x 3mm box section. That cost me around 20 pre-pension quids from a local rural steel fabricators [village jobbie].. and certainly garnered the approval of my MoT tester! [try knocking holes in that, yaboogah!]
However, even buying what amounts to offcuts of scrap, given the inflated price of steel today, would mean over a hundred quids...
I have some 1 point summat mm thick steel sheet....so I guess I'll be cutting bits of sheet, bending on my makeshift bender [two clamps, plank of wood, and workbench made from a door] ....
I wouldn't mind, but it's purely for my benefit, not the testers..since its all covered by a plastic panel, which he isn't allowed to remove....The Suzuki has a very decent chassis, but what with body mounts or seat belt anchorages, and the 30 cm rule, plainly useless bits of rust need covering.

Before anybody gets on the anti 4x4 bandwagon, I got the 4Trak some 7 or 8 years ago to tow a car trailer....the 4trak has a plated 3.5 tonne towing weight [5 3/4 tonne GTW]....and it returns a regular 30-32 mpgs. It starts first click, regardless of weather..[requires a pre-starting procedure that modern day drivers would soon get bored with], smokes on startup until the manifolds get warm..and has a dashboard more like a mantlepiece.
Hence I could stand my thermos cup of coffee, and bacon sarnies on it without it falling off...Its more like a desktop than a dashboard.
Plus, ever so much more importantly for an aging pensioner, they are both easy for me to enter and exit. Simply open door, reverse backside onto seat, swing legs in, and jobs done....none of this 'sinking into the pits of hell' feeling that modern cars give me when trying to get in. Or the heaving struggles trying to get out with a modicum of dignity!
I use the 4 wheel drive approximately for one minute, every year.[ Mainly when shifting a trailer from up the top of my garden...it's on a steep grassy slope]
No good really in snow, as I cannot afford winter tyres....in fact, for tyres I only buy the very cheapest chinese ditchfinders out there [CAmskill were good for cheap tyres]. I blanche at having to spend more than 45 pensionquids on a new tyre...[remould actually cost more!!] Plus they're the cheapest car type tyre anyway. But, I do have ground clearance, so can pull of onto the grass verges round here with impunity, when passing others.
Ths suzuki came about because at the time I had started welding the 4Trak, and didn't think it would be done in time for a planned trip with son-&-heir...so [I was still working at the time....oh sucker me!!] I nipped out and bought the cheap suzuki..it also needed to tow occasionally as well.....and, even though the 4Trak was done well in time, I would switch between one or t'uther throughout the year...marvellous thing, this online DVLA tax and de-tax system, ain't it?

My son is on the autistic spectrum....and he didn't like riding in the Mustang [left hooker]...not because he felt unsafe, but we use a local rural McDonalds drive-thru regularly, for their coffee [better than Costa, at a quid a cup!]....etc...and he initially thought that, being on the right side, and having to do the ordering, he would also have to pay........!!!

Anyway, it's raining now..not good weather to be doing any welding....I don't have a garage, just a big DAncover tent, and a car port, and a big wide drive, and a workshop up the top of the garden....I find welding in the wet to have a rather 'tingling' effect...
Not that I can weld very well at all...more of a sort of 'dot-&-carry-one' type welder.

Petrol? Do we need reminding that, prior to WW2, petrol was actually an expensive luxury for the cheapskate motorist...and usually, fuel that was cheap was of the alcohol variety? Pre-Wawer cheaper cars ran well enough on the stuff....
Then there was Cleveland Discol?
I'm not certain what National Benzol was made from, though.

Yet here we are, in the twenty-summat century, bleating and wring our hands and gnashing our falsies over E10, FFS!

When in reality, old motor enthusiasts just needed to renew their soft fuel components..
Which ought to have been done regularly anyway.

Biggest problem with today's fuel [has been a problem for 30 years now, if we but recognised it at the time] is the other stuff that it's made of.

It's very different from the stuff sold as petrol in the 1960's.... To my mind it's this aspect that has created all the issues that old motor users have encountered...which never happened, 'back in the day'....

Anyway, my sidevalve Ford engine positively lurves E10...it runs much more cleanly at sub-3000 rpms...

Mind, the 4trak once ran beautifully on 25 litres of petrol I put in it by mistake...Just nipped into Halfords for a small bottle of lawnmower oil and chucked that in as well.
Bless the old technology, for being so resilient...couldn't do that with any 'modern' diesel, with their common rails and ecus...and flamin' DMFs and DPFs and all that other crap that eventually gets in the way and costs a fortune to mend.
Still enough from a petrolhead, the rain is clearing up!
 
Focalplane

Focalplane

Western Thunderer
I'll put my "petroleum geologist" cap on for this post. After a career of nearly fifty years in the "awl bidness" mostly involved in exploration but also production, there are many facts about oil that are misrepresented by the green friendly media and swallowed wholesale by the politicians.

The first is that crude oil varies considerably from very heavy oil/tar sands which need to be heated to even produce from wells, to light gas condensates, the liquid component of which can be put straight into a diesel engine. Examples of the heavy oils I knew well are the Mendoza Province in Argentina as well as some oil fields in Venezuela. Condensate is a strange liquid (it condenses out of a gas stream) which can have so much wax content it solidifies at room temperature. These are extreme examples and ideally we explore for good quality light crudes, except there is no guarantee what the outcome will be of a very risky and expensive exploration program. More often than not, dry holes.

Refineries are geared up to optimize the crude oils available to the market. So the ex-Cities Service refinery at Lake Charles, Louisiana was upgraded by its new owner, Venezuela state oil company, to provide a high component of gasoline from Venezuelan crudes to serve the Citco gas stations which it also bought.

As Rob R points out above, the mix of refined products from any one crude oil ranges from tar to ethane. The mix will depend on the fractionation system used and the original crude chemistry. As well as simple products like gasoline, however, crude oil also provides the basis for most plastics. Don't tell me we won't need plastics in the future, so all those basic petroleum based fuels may actually become necessary byproducts to a dominant petrochemical industry.

The lead time for getting the first oil out of a new oil producing area can be measured in years and decades. Much depends on location, the market and the quality of the discovery. Government policies often dictate how soon oil may be produced (either quickly or slowly) depending on the domestic needs. Market forces can emphasize or de-emphasize the need for exploration. Successful exploration leads to a glut, so no exploration until the next rise in demand. One of my client companies would only explore where oil was already being produced. Another wanted to repeat a high risk venture that came good, only to drill a series of dry holes over 20 years in other high risk areas. The one success kept the company afloat.

The way oil companies work with governments has also changed over the years. National oil companies have become very important and most modern contracts include the term "production sharing". The old concessions are history though there are obvious exceptions. Technology has also had a huge impact on how oil is produced. Fracking has turned the industry upside down in the United States; a country once dependent on imports is now a net exporter. Nimby culture has prevented it being adopted in Europe, while coal bed methane has also been suppressed by a variety of factors, some reasonable, others not.

One of the ironies of liquid fueled cars is the point of delivery. Most drivers have no idea what a tankful looks like, they just turn on the pump and in it goes. I have often wondered why oil companies do not post the amount of tax paid on a litre or gallon of fuel. They really should!
 
oldravendale

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thank you, Max, for your experience and for the research you've done on my behalf! In view of your comments I certainly will reconsider my position - we're in the fortunate position of having a drive on which we can park our cars so a plug in presents no problems. My situation is simply this: we use both my own and my wife's cars for long journeys - it's not unusual for us to do 400 miles in a day. I refuse to countenance waiting in a queue for a charger and then another 20 minutes or so for the batteries to charge up when I can fill the car with petrol and be on my way in five minutes. I also have considerable concerns about the range of a fully electric vehicle, particularly in the winter and wonder how many people stuck on a motorway overnight due to snow drifts (if we have a hard winter) will run out of battery power although I freely admit that I've done no research on this.

However, you've enlightened me about the benefits of a hybrid as you've experienced them first hand. More research and a less blinkered view is probably in order!

Brian
 
Eastsidepilot

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
Focalplane said:
One of the ironies of liquid fueled cars is the point of delivery. Most drivers have no idea what a tankful looks like, they just turn on the pump and in it goes. I have often wondered why oil companies do not post the amount of tax paid on a litre or gallon of fuel. They really should!
Click to expand...
You can imagine if the government really reduced the tax down to a small number, something silly like 1 % then the retailers greed would come into effect and whack the price right up again. Fuel and Energy today is an essential product used in the so called 21st century as a commodity for the few stinking rich buggers that live on a different planet, a case of I'm alright Jack F**K the rest.

Grumpy old man mode now switched off :D
 
alastairq

alastairq

Western Thunderer
Local garage has today dropped its E10 price by 10 pence a litre, to £1.58! The cheapest by far in the entire East Riding of Yarkshoyre is Jet.
Asda [nearest to me is in Hull, some 16 miles away, one way] has been knocked off it's top spot for the cheapest fuel.

PetrolPrices dot com is now a well used online tool chez moi.
I rarely put in more than around 20 pensionquids worth of fuel at any one time.. Such is the volatility of fuel prices, it would break my [wallet's?} heart to find I'd put in 60 quids worth, then to find the price had dropped another ten pence a litre the following day!
Besides, being over the 70 threshold, one never really knows how much is left on front of one....and it would be a shame to khark it leaving a half full tank of petrol behind..
I have yet to reach the stage where my family would buy me a sat nav, so that I can be reminded of where it is I'm driving to. Or, better still, how do I get home again?
I believe Royal Enfield got their buyers' demographic just about spot on with their RE Meteor 350! Evidenced by the standard fitment of a bluefly connected sat nav in the instrument binnacle. The new age old fahrt bikers then have all they need to find their way back home again...

I used to wonder why solitary aged motorcyclists would stand around in field gateways, looking bemused as they gaze about...wondering where the 'eck they are, or what they're doing out there, or, how to get home now they've got where they didn't know they were going?

I had to use a tall kerb edge to stand on, just to get my leg over a Honda CB125 I picked up a few years back [genuine Honda, not a Brazilian]...

I'd love a RE Meteor, [in yellow, so I could find it again in a car park]...but I have to give myself a reality check, and remind myself of my lack of flexibility [mainly due to a motorcycle nasty, some 40 years ago, which left one of my legs , full of holes, and a bit misshapen. ]

I shall flogg the Mustang sometime soon, [on consignment, so I dont have the hassle]...which will give me a small amount of readies, settle some family-sourced bills, and get myself some wheels, over 40 years old so it would have zero VED and no MoT necessary...
But, what wheels to look for? Must be fairy economical with petrol [limited income]...and fairly easy to maintain, with a reasonable spares supply....Plus, easy to get in & out of with a semblance of dignity.
I was thinking, Reliant? Or maybe a Bond Equipe? Or will I end up becoming one of the myriads of Morris Minor road blocks?
Not wanting a soft top [they have too much unwarranted cache in my view] of any description...[I have the Dellow for those needs]
Not too twee either....don't like being gawked at, or photographed incessantly..
Not happy doing shows either.....unless they're free to park up in.
I had once thought of an old [pre-Wawer?] Jowett....Or an Armstrong Siddeley Whitley...[just small enough to not be brash, solid enough and simple enough to suit my tastes]
The Mustang has seen it's main reason for being kept, now pass by [Dearest Daughter's wedding, which eventually happened despite covid], a job it fulfilled admirably.
I care not about holding up traffic either, these days...they can lump it...Especially when I think about all their Mums & Dads, and grandparents and other older rellies have spent the past 50 years getting in my way all the time..now it's about revenge.

It pays to be big and ugly to boot...
 
Neil

Neil

Western Thunderer
I have a slightly different range dilemma. The furthest I regularly drive is from Tywyn to Aberystwyth and back and that's probably less than once a fortnight. The car, a fourteen year old Focus, can sit on the drive for days at a time. I'd like an EV (I think we should do what we can to lessen the amount of greenhouse gasses pumped into the air) but there's a part of me (the Yorkshire bit) that drags my feet over spending a lot of money for something I wouldn't use that much. Maybe I should look at older s/h models as range isn't a problem.

Edit: I am also big and ugly, not sure that it has conferred any advantages.
 
Max M

Max M

Western Thunderer
alastairq said:
Local garage has today dropped its E10 price by 10 pence a litre, to £1.58! The cheapest by far in the entire East Riding of Yarkshoyre is Jet.
Asda [nearest to me is in Hull, some 16 miles away, one way] has been knocked off it's top spot for the cheapest fuel.
Click to expand...
Not sure how you arrived at a £10.00 price? Even at the most expensive it hit here in Carlisle (£1.909) equates to £8.68. It's now £1.599 which is £7.27.

oldravendale said:
Thank you, Max, for your experience and for the research you've done on my behalf! In view of your comments I certainly will reconsider my position - we're in the fortunate position of having a drive on which we can park our cars so a plug in presents no problems. My situation is simply this: we use both my own and my wife's cars for long journeys - it's not unusual for us to do 400 miles in a day. I refuse to countenance waiting in a queue for a charger and then another 20 minutes or so for the batteries to charge up when I can fill the car with petrol and be on my way in five minutes. I also have considerable concerns about the range of a fully electric vehicle, particularly in the winter and wonder how many people stuck on a motorway overnight due to snow drifts (if we have a hard winter) will run out of battery power although I freely admit that I've done no research on this.

However, you've enlightened me about the benefits of a hybrid as you've experienced them first hand. More research and a less blinkered view is probably in order!
Click to expand...
Brian, I share your concern regarding long journeys which whilst not done that often would be a pain in the bottom if I had to rely on public chargers.
It would also be interesting to compare the cost of using a fast charger with the equivalent cost of petrol.
I'm also with you regarding the range of a full EV.
Mine has a given battery range of 44 miles. In the summer this is achievable but...on the coldest days this drops to under thirty (the manufacturer doesn't mention this).
If this is replicated on a full EV then that would represent a significant range reduction.
One other (minor) negative is that to squeeze everything in there is a slight reduction in boot capacity which may be peculiar to my vehicle (Mercedes A250e). I suspect that as cars are designed from the ground up as hybrids that will change and range may well increase a the technology improves.

The positive (pause for manic laughter) is that in Sport mode you get engine and motor output combined...very useful if you need a quick overtake....allegedly...or so I've read. :)
 
Focalplane

Focalplane

Western Thunderer
Last winter in North America there was a very cold spell with EV ranges much diminished. Vehicles are far from well insulated and I presume that batteries drain faster with the heater on. At least a hybrid could keep one warm. Petroleum to the rescue!

I find it interesting that in an earlier post I mentioned the mining for Coltan etc. in D R Congo. No comments on that, is it because consumers really don’t want to know? Saving the planet at the expense of poor, desperate peoples’ lives and safety doesn’t ring true to me. The big picture is rarely understood.
 
Eastsidepilot

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
I don't think the manufactures of eco friendly vehicles or any other type of powered machine or the suppliers of the components, minerals or chemicals used in them give a bleedin toss about the poor buggers that die mining the stuff, or the less well off not being able to afford any of the products just so long as they keep selling so many units ( cause there's always those that can ) at the highest possible price to feed their fat wallets.

When we get back to perhaps some of the needs of human beings on this planet being able to at least keep a roof over their heads, easily afford to eat and keep warm in winter, get paid a proper wage in the first place, then perhaps we could start talking about saving the planet, but I'm afraid that the greedy few in this world hold too much control and hold the rest of us to ransom, that's what I see as the big picture !

Col.
Grumpy old man mode switched off again :D
 
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