Hairy Bikers and Other Petrol Heads

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
The problem with converting people to electric as far as I see is more about cost, not many will be able to afford a new one and when the second hand market gets going the greed will set in and keep prices high much like housing. Motoring for the less well off will disappear.
If the world is serious about going electric they need to make it easily available to the masses not just the lucky few.
Electricity should be a cheap necessity not a commodity for the multi billionaires of this world.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I agree with your argument, Col. However, EV technology is improving all the time, and the starting costs are coming down all the time as it matures. There’s a new MG EV of 5-door hatchback style coming to the market. Starting price about £26k, which is on par with many ICE cars in that class, and about £10k below the asking price of the EV segment leader.

Charging infrastructure is the biggest obstacle to mass take-up. But for the toddle to the supermarket once a week, charging on my drive would be more than adequate.
 

Richard Gawler

Western Thunderer
I think the inital cost is a big obstacle too. The small, basic cars like the Toyota Aygo / Citroen C1 / Peugot 108 have gone out of production and there is nothing to replace them. The entry-level car is moving from under £10,000 to over £25,000.

Edit: I'm not trying to sound too blunt. But I have spent a lifetime of motoring in smallish cars (MX-5s for the last 16 years, did someone say petrolhead) and the move to electric seems to be moving the entry point; no small(ish) cars any more; and this seems like a big loss.
 
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alastairq

Western Thunderer
Being green, and taking advantage of new technologies, is very much the realm of the comfortably-off.
For those whose transport requirements can only be met with the £500, 20 year old motorcar there is no available route forwards.

Where is the £6000 EV like the DAcia Sandero? [or £12000 sandero as it has now become?]
For many less well-off folks, there isn't even the opportunity to safely re-charge, let alone be 'green'...[terraced houses, etc?]
Public transport is fine for the large urban areas.....but, that's it.
Whilst public transport [in all its forms] remains available only on a cost to profit basis, there will be no options for those on lower, or limited, incomes.
Public transport should be a service.
It should rock up everywhere where people live, regularly and frequently, regardless of whether anybody uses it, or not.
It should be cheap to use, or , preferably, free to use.
Only then can we gain a sustainable public/private transport system.
Thus far we have put the 'egg'..the private transport, before the 'chicken', the public transport system.
If society is to persuade folk to alter the way they view travel, society has to provide, first of all, a viable, cheap, option [public transport], to private vehicle usage.
Currently that does not happen, universally.
Public transport is purely subject to the need to make a profit [for shareholders, mainly]...Publicly funded public transport is very much in the back seat, and based purely on a perceived need..
IE, we still live with the ethos of 'use it or lose it'

This has to be disposed of as an idea, if we are to reduce the impact of private transport, and allow access for all.

Only then can we morally say, ban or reduce the private car usage in towns, cities, etc....

I should add, I live in a rural village. the nearest bus stop is 1.5 miles walk away, along cross- country lanes. Even then, it is a service in name only, being unsuitable for those needing to get to work, or attend appointments, or, simply to go and shop. We don't even get a school bus that's useable.
We used to have a service, but it got chopped [for the sake of 3 miles of extra route] because ''nobody used it''
Now the local town is talking about charging drivers to enter & park! Without first providing that all important option, as above.

I know about buses...I drove them for 25 years, before embarking on a second so-called 'career'...At one time, we provided service.
Regardless.

Of loadings, or weather.

There, said my piece, now I have a Dellow to go grease up.
Got some petrol the other day, £1.60 a litre. I only use E10....
 

Richard Gawler

Western Thunderer
I suppose the difference this time is, we didn't ban the construction of horse carts and carriages just because a horseless version could be had by the wealthy.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I’m not sure we are banning anything. Motor manufacturers have seen this coming for a long time, and all that’s changing in essence is the motive unit.

An EV - even secondhand - is still out of my reach, but the ICE market for used vehicles will be around for quite some time. My current make and model has been out of production for nearly ten years, but still commands large used values.
 

Richard Gawler

Western Thunderer
The British government is banning the use of internal combustion engines in new cars and mopeds and then, a little later, in motorcycles.

I imagine the market for s/h ICE cars will stay for at least 10 or 13 years, to match their present life expectancy. Maybe longer I suppose, because it will become relatively cheaper to repair them, for repairs currently "uneconomic", when the alternative is a more costly EV.
 

Mike W

Western Thunderer
The EV has a lot to offer some people, but I do object when it is portrayed as "green", like it will save the planet. Market them on their own benefits, quiet, fast, lots of gadgets .. but whilst we generate electricity from gas, pour millions of tons of concrete into he bases of wind turbines and open cast mine the dangerous lithium, they are not green!

And, as Alastair said, I'm firing up the old V12 this week. That should fill the air with a certain aroma and frighten a few young children too.

Mike
 

Focalplane

Western Thunderer
Earlier this year at a Mercure Hotel in Brive la Gaillade, France. 14 charging stations all exclusive to Tesla, only one in use.

901AE165-5FA6-47A3-92E0-0961B90D2955.jpeg

Two charging stations in “our” village in France both out of commission soon after being opened for business.

Hotel in Cambridge in 2019 had no regular parking for our car - “use one of the 2 charging spaces, they are never used”!

I think a can of petrol will remain the most portable form of energy for some time to come, particularly in the third world.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
We're coming up for a new car for Mrs D next year. She's had a Honda Jazz for years and is pretty well wedded to them. (Great for shopping/going down the tip/moving furniture etc). Stimulated by this thread I thought I'd have a quick look to see how much a new petrol engined Jazz would be - and they are not made any more. I can, of course, get a hybrid but what's the point of using an efficient petrol engine to lug around kilos of unwanted battery?

With some sadness we'll be looking for a real non-Honda petrol engined car although I really don't know where to start.

In the meantime I'll keep my 15-year old Jaguar XK. Actually, by not replacing it every 3 or 4 years I may be greener than most.

Brian
 

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
The other 'Grumpy old Man' pissed off moan is the road tax, mine is £360 a year for a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee, it's probably as green as can be for a diesel but I don't see why I should be caned for it. Just makes me want to burn more fuel in protest and carry on using it as long as possible !
 

alastairq

Western Thunderer
That should fill the air with a certain aroma and frighten a few young children too.
I like to do that a lot [farting when the person behind gets too close in Lidl's checkout queues, and really taking to heart the advice on many a laundry cleaner advert, namely, ''Keep away from children!'' ]

With the current and impending crisis in less well off finances..I foresee a good market for 40 year old stuff as well...[zero VED, unlikely to change, given the parliamentary lobby] and zero need for MoT..[easier on my pocket, at 40 quid a throw, just to point out how roadworthy my old stuff actually is...as if I didn't know already?} the whirly 1980's being the real start of economic, practical small cars, really the start of what we know of as 'modern' vehicles..
Vehicles which, being more basic than today's heaps, will be easier to 'keep running' than similar stuff from the late 1990's onwards.
By very selective application of modern technologies, older cars[and bikes] are able to oevrcome many of the age-old issues of apparent 'reliability'...
Let's face it, stuff from 1983 and newer is still relatively cheap to get hold of...especially as many folk don't see the basic runabouts as being 'classic' in any way. I would take advantage of that 'snobbery' whilst it lasts.
The only thing I wouldn't buy is an old Land Rover!
Aside from the silly fuel consumption [but there are LPG kits around]...being well over 6 foot tall, I find I cannot even get myself behind the steering wheel of any Series Landy! I've tried & tried, but hte seat won't go back anything like far enough...and my legs don't fold up in the way they used to. Which is a shame really as I quite like Landy.s...especially the ex-milly types [which I used to work with for nearly 20 years...and could just about squeeze my frame behind the wheels thereof.]

Charging for using motorways is probably coming too....Not something I'd have an issue with.
Being a retired bodd, IE a not-worker, I find a perverse pleasure in plotting journeys using maps, especially to avoid motorways [roads under motorway regulations]
To be even more perverse, I firmly believe motorways should be the haven of the slower vehicles in the nations traffic queues..rather than the fastest.
I believe motorways are there to enable old lorries to more quickly from A to B, seeing as motorways , by their very nature, offer routes with the least number of conflicting delays, junctions etc..exactly what an old lorry really needs, to get about.
Unfortunately, motorways have become victims of the UK's perverse driver who wants to go ever faster and faster, so much so that the real purpose of motorways has become lost in the boswellox that surrounds what folk think about as 'driving'...

Let's face it, 99% of all drivers out there cannot in reality cope with speeds in excess of 69 mph anyway....the human body being what it is.
I also think that racing drivers,especially formula one, can't drive at all, in reality.
To prove my point, what about formula one races starting, with half the grid circulating in one direction, and the other half going round the opposite way?
That would sort out the sheep from the goats, as far as driving is concerned!

Also, what about advertising on motorway overbridges? ''Should have gone to Specsavers'' would be a good one...

The Dellow, with its sidevalve Ford engine, fired up first click this morning.....[as it always does]...benefit of modern, Hall effect ignition module instead of points. Still no seatbelts....no room for air bags, nowhere to go except sideways anyway....But, it does have doors!
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
What Brian says about being green by keeping an older car on the road is not wrong. Sadly, spares will eventually become harder to source.

For those interested, here’s a link to a sceptic web site. It’s the transcript, with supporting links, of a podcast episode about electric vehicles and the myths put out by those generally against them.


Food for thought.

Incidentally, if I could afford an EV, our current electricity supplier is 100% renewable sourced. The MG4 mentioned earlier claims a usable range of nearly 280 miles, with a fast charge cycle giving 80% full capacity in 30 minutes - enough to get me from home to Scotland in a couple of hops. I was impressed, even though it is way out of my league presently.
 

Focalplane

Western Thunderer
My oldest car turns 90 next year, the next oldest 88. Spare parts are generally available from club and specialist workshops. They are fun to drive, don’t go very fast and get me down to Aldi just as easily as my modern car. I took the 1935 saloon to a car festival last year. Parked next to several Italian exotics from the 1960s, it garnered many positive comments such as “they don’t make cars like that any more”. The best thing, though, is the fact that I can do all the servicing myself, though I am not so sure I want to rebuild an engine at my age. If I do need to use a specialist I know enough not to be taken for a ride; you can’t say that about modern cars with black boxes that cost £400 a pop when just one relay inside needed to be replaced.
 

alastairq

Western Thunderer
On the spares front, spare parts for almost all vehicles these days will experience one form of shortage or another.
If it isn't chips, it's something else!
Aside from the Dellow [a '51 car] which has Ford 10 HP running gear...but currently has a 100E sidevalve engine...aside from certain items which were Dellow-specific [more to do with size than owt else]..all mechanical parts are pretty much available, at reasonable prices, from the Ford sidevalve owners club. [worth always being a 'club' member anyway]
My other oldie[that is up n running] is a '67 Ford Mustang. Tis a 6 cylinder engine [not happy with V8s on a limited pension...too many sparkplugs to buy, to heavy a fuel consumption, too heavy on tyres, and not enough room round the engine to tinker]...at 200 cu ins it's not a small motor by any means..loadsa torque, however..and an auto box courtesy of Ford.
However, what makes it such a useful, practical [old] motor is the fact that every item on it [nuts bolts fittings fixtures etc] can be purchased, new.
In the 5 years I have had it I have fitted a new starter, new distributor, new water pump, rebuilt the [factory] power steering, new brake pads, etc etc. All [almost] have been purchased from a US auto parts online store [RockAuto, for those in the know] at prices that even today's Fords couldn't hope to match. [Try Eurocarparts?}
Every single item has been on my doorstep within 4 days of my placing my online order [Fedex]..no extras to pay for such as VAT or duty...that's all done up front. The shipping costs are very reasonable too [they must have a good contract with Fedex?}
There an online video or two for damn nearly every single task an owner might be faced with.
Mind, I didn't set out to buy the Musang...it sort of 'fell' onto my radar..I had just retired, and had a small 'lump sum' which I wanted to 'hide.'..and I was really out looking for a pre-historic motor to be my daily driver...My eyeballs were, at the time, focussed on MGBGTs of the cheaper end of the market [ they tend to be more 'honest' than some of the overpriced tarted up stuff out there.
Anyway, the Mustang came onto my radar, more money than I was thinking of spending, but hey, interest rates were pretty rubbish 6 years ago [and they still are] and the amount wasn't enough to provide any sort of useful monthly income. {I rent, such is life, so no millstones of debt to eliminate]..The dealer made me a deal...if I didn't 'get on with it' then I could bring it back and get my money back...Couldn't argue with that sort of deal, could I? So I purchased it...it has needed some 'fettling' to et it running right...more or less putting right what numerous previous owners [in the US] had got wrong....it was a 'cheap motor' to them, and I reckon it still is. The shell is, structurally, spotty-dog, with cosmetic blemishes here & there. Performance -wise, it gets ahead of today's traffic easily enough, despite being the 'base model', engine wise. It has had 'sensible' user mods, like a basic disc brake kit [GM discs, from the US GM Cavalier of the 1990's, so pads are available in the US from every corner shop.. My most recent set were 8 quid a set! [postage, duties, etc on top of that, but who can complain??]

It also has more shoulder and leg room than any MGB ....yet has a smaller 'footprint' than the latest Mondeo.
Trouble is, its painted in Ford's Grabber Blue...and attracts far too much public attention than I'm happy with...[I prefer keeping something of a low profile]
Yes, it's a cheap job....but, when I flog it, I'll make back more than I've spent on it, and the market is very much there for Mustangs of any sort.
I never really intended 'keeping' it for any length of time...but the Muzzie & the Dellow were all I used during the pandemic...

The biggest issue those who run really old motors will find is the appalling quality of 'new' service items.

MAde in China to the specs laid down by the spares distributor....I believe they don't reckon old car users will do more than around a thousand miles a year, if that..so things like condensers don't need to last very long..if they go phutt after 3 years, the owners will still think that's ''normal'' for old cars.
There is the classic {?} example of rotor arms...made to spec in China, part of one dealer's spec was,they had to be 'black'....so the Chinese factory [not knowing or caring what they were to be used for] mixed carbon into the plastic mix..ideal material for a rotor arm....NOT!

So 'new' service spares need to be sourced from specialists whose trade is selling items that have been made properly, to overcome the shortfalls of quality.
Brake linings need to be in specialised 'soft' compounds, not modern day compounds, to best simulate the old asbestos linings......a problem which lead many old vehicle owners to think old brakes were useless!

Old motors can be cheap and easy to run, but one has to be a lot more aware of how the marketplace out there has changed, as the purpose of old vehicles has changed.
Give me the Dellow's Girling mechanical braking system any day over a hydraulic set up....no darned 'bleeding' to start with...
 

Boyblunder

Western Thunderer
In the current unhappy circumstances electric cars are looking expensive to run. I calculated the cost of running my hybrid on petrol at £1.71 a litre yesterday versus electricity bought at the next price cap rate of £0.52 a kWh and found it is cheaper to run on petrol. Fortunately I've got a good deal with Octopus for another 18 months and also can re-charge for free from my solar panels if I'm at home during the day, which unfortunately isn't very often.
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
You might want to revisit your maths! If you got a respectable 10miles/litre on petrol, you should be getting 3.5 miles/kWh as a minimum, making the EV mode 10% cheaper at least even at 52p/kWh (which you're not 'currently' paying!)
Dave
 

SimonT

Western Thunderer
miles/litre
Imperial measure? Nope.
Metric measure? Nope.
American measure? Nope.
SI measure? Nope.
Someone might understand quart/furlong though.
:p:p:p
Simon
PS It could be worse. How about 10 1/4miles/litre.;)
 
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