Rivermead Central

[40057]

Hello Martin

I am wondering if you can help with a Bassett-Lowke puzzle which has been intriguing me for some time. It may well be that the answer is well known, and I have just missed the obvious, but here goes -

View attachment 259426

Here are my B-L 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 tank engines. The 0-6-0 is in my 1934 catalogue, so it was introduced by then. Mine is one of the earlier ones, with the big 5374 number on the side. Later on in the 1930s they were offered in LMS, LNER and SR versions. This one is a bit of an oddball, in that it is clockwork but has the 1 5/8" cast-iron wheels with centre slotted nuts. The 0-4-0 tank does not appear in any of my catalogues, but was apparently issued in the late 1930s and was not reintroduced post-war. Whereas the 0-6-0 was re-issued in BR livery and soldiered on to the end. You can see how Bassett-Lowke cunningly re-used the cab, side tanks and boiler fittings from the 0-6-0 in its junior offspring.

So, the puzzle is this. Both these engines (and the others that I have seen) have this maker's transfer on the bunker -

View attachment 259427

It just says "British Made" after the B-L name. Whereas Bassett-Lowke engines of the 1930s generally have this -

View attachment 259428


This one is from a Compound 4-4-0. You will notice that it has the company name and "Made in Northampton". Variations include "Northampton Make".

So from this I conjecture that the 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 tanks were perhaps not made in Northampton, but were outsourced to another maker. If so, then who? The engines are tinprinted and built with tab and slot, so it would have to be a builder conversant with this process. I do hope you can shed some light on this . . .

John

Hi John

Various questions which I will try to answer.

Were the 1930s-designed freelance 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 tanks made in Northampton? Yes they were. I don’t have a signed statement from Mr Bassett-Lowke to that effect, you understand. But everything about how these models were made and the use of common parts points to production at Northampton. The ‘maker’s plate’ incorporated in the lithography does say ‘Made in Northampton’ in the BR version of the 0-6-0T.

The 0-4-0 version was only produced for a few years just before WW2. It is in the catalogues from the years it was made. As you say, a clever use of common parts to offer a different model but with (presumably) minimal additional tooling costs. The 0-4-0 is quite scarce nowadays. Possibly because it wasn’t produced for long, possibly because the usual claim of ‘scale model’ was distinctly suspect. An 0-4-0T with inside cylinders and 5’8” diameter wheels — how likely is that? I would think quite a proportion of Bassett-Lowke’s customers would not have wanted one on grounds of implausibility. Mind you, the 0-6-0T clearly did sell well and there weren’t many outside cylinder 0-6-0s with 5’8” wheels either. Probably none, actually. I do have one of the 0-6-0 tanks but not in working condition due to disintegrating wheels. It was clearly a popular and long-lived model in the Bassett-Lowke range, so I have justified it to myself on that basis. It really isn’t realistic — whereas the freelance 0-6-0 goods loco, say, was plausible. Freelance, but believable.

I guess the original wheels on your 5374 disintegrated, as they usually do. Because of a lack of suitable replacements, or because of the difficulty of push-fitting replacements accurately quartered and true running, someone has used the driving wheels from a later 4-6-0 or Pacific to get the loco working again. This will have been the easiest way to accurately fit replacement wheels. Obviously, new axles will have been required. Electric versions of 5374 of course always had cast iron wheels. But a smaller diameter and with the cranks quartered by the earlier system of an external plate covering the wheel boss.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

I would think quite a proportion of Bassett-Lowke’s customers would not have wanted one on grounds of implausibility.

Point taken. But for comparison, Hornby's No 2 Special 4-4-2 tank engine is a hideous brute unlike any 4-4-2 which actually ran on British railways, but - they sold in shedloads and are now one of the most common vintage O Gauge engines in the marketplace.

 

[40057]

Point taken. But for comparison, Hornby's No 2 Special 4-4-2 tank engine is a hideous brute unlike any 4-4-2 which actually ran on British railways, but - they sold in shedloads and are now one of the most common vintage O Gauge engines in the marketplace.

There is though a fundamental difference between the Hornby 4-4-2T and the B-L 0-4-0T. Meccano did not claim their tank engine to be a scale model. It was made and sold as a toy for children. I would guess the Hornby loco was quite a bit less expensive than the B-L 0-4-0.

B-L were always very clear that they made models, not toys. Of course, really they were toys for adults. But, in marketing terms that wouldn’t do. Bassett-Lowke was selling to well-educated, professionals with money. People like my late father-in-law’s father, a successful solicitor. It would never do if the perception was Bassett-Lowke’s customers were buying toys.

Of course, the boundary between toys and models is indistinct. A few Hornby 0 gauge items can fairly be described as models, by the general standards of the time. Conversely, a minority of Bassett-Lowke products really aren’t ‘scale models’. The dreadful Peckett comes to mind.

Martin

 

[Overseer]

Mind you, the 0-6-0T clearly did sell well and there weren’t many outside cylinder 0-6-0s with 5’8” wheels either. Probably none, actually. I do have one of the 0-6-0 tanks but not in working condition due to disintegrating wheels. It was clearly a popular and long-lived model in the Bassett-Lowke range, so I have justified it to myself on that basis. It really isn’t realistic — whereas the freelance 0-6-0 goods loco, say, was plausible. Freelance, but believable.

The 0-6-0T reminds me of the Highland Railway 'Scrap Tanks' built by Drummond in 1903. Their wheels were only 5' 2 1/2" diameter and the model boiler has been enlarged to fit the mechanism but in comparison with a lot of clockwork models the 0-6-0T looks not too far from at least one prototype class.

 

[John R Smith]

The 0-6-0T reminds me of the Highland Railway 'Scrap Tanks' built by Drummond in 1903.

I like the way the crew have the fire irons on top of the cab!

I have to say that I am quite fond of my B-L 0-6-0 tank. Despite being a rather plain Jane, she has nice little brass filler caps for the sandboxes built into the splashers. Here she is on an engineer's special at Kingswell Street -



With her rather posh cast-iron wheels she is a very powerful runner, and will make short work of shunting this hopper wagon (or heavy old Exley coaches) around. I think that the outside cylinders must be just a straightforward re-use of the Midland Compound ones.

John

 

[40057]

I like the way the crew have the fire irons on top of the cab!

I have to say that I am quite fond of my B-L 0-6-0 tank. Despite being a rather plain Jane, she has nice little brass filler caps for the sandboxes built into the splashers. Here she is on an engineer's special at Kingswell Street -

View attachment 259476

With her rather posh cast-iron wheels she is a very powerful runner, and will make short work of shunting this hopper wagon (or heavy old Exley coaches) around. I think that the outside cylinders must be just a straightforward re-use of the Midland Compound ones.

John

The standard 0-6-0 tank is undeniably an attractive model. Yes, the cylinders are the type originally produced for the Compound. It is slightly odd though that Bassett-Lowke opted for large wheels and outside cylinders. The 0-6-0T would have been much more typical of real practice with 5’ diameter wheels, as on the freelance 0-6-0 goods loco, and without the outside cylinders. It is noticeable how often the 0-6-0 tanks turn up with the cylinders removed.

Martin

 

[40057]

I spoke too soon! In post #812 on 23 February. That was the last rapid progress there has been with my length of wall.

By 28 February, it had an all-over coat of brick colour paint:



Then, as with the previous length of wall I made, I noticed glossy patches had developed quite widely across the surface. I am still mystified as to precisely what is causing this. However, after various failed attempts to cover just the localised glossy areas, I concluded I would have to sand the surface and repaint. This meant the laser-cut mortar courses had become very shallow, so getting the mortar one colour and the bricks a different one required very careful painting.

Very tedious. To quote Father Hackett, ‘Fed up with brick’.

However, I now have a brick wall with an all-over matt surface:





There is a stone string course to add above the lower, thicker, section of the wall. Also a coping. I will add localised weathering which should cover up areas where the mortar/brick painting is not as neat as I would like.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

Hello Martin

Your wall is looking good, it will be worth all the effort in the end. Just thinking about my 0-6-0 tank again, and trying to pin down when the wheels might have been changed - are those centre-nutted wheels with the recessed slotted nuts a post-war thing, or were they ever used before say 1940? All the cast-iron 1 5/8" drivers I can find photos of pre-WWII seem to have the external nut (bolt?) with the cover plate.

John

 

[40057]

Hello Martin

Your wall is looking good, it will be worth all the effort in the end. Just thinking about my 0-6-0 tank again, and trying to pin down when the wheels might have been changed - are those centre-nutted wheels with the recessed slotted nuts a post-war thing, or were they ever used before say 1940? All the cast-iron 1 5/8" drivers I can find photos of pre-WWII seem to have the external nut (bolt?) with the cover plate.

John

Hi John

It is difficult to pin down exact dates for changes in parts like wheels and couplings because the catalogue description won’t have changed, because it didn’t need to.

However, I think the change to the wheel quartering system was made in c.1936. The first of the freelance 0-6-0T models to be introduced was the ‘big number’ 5374. Electric versions certainly had the external plate covering the wheel boss as the quartering system. By the time the prototypical company livery versions of the 0-6-0T were introduced, the eared washer system was in use for the electric models. I doubt if any of the 5374 models were made with eared washer wheel fastenings.

Changes in other models also point to 1936 as the change over date. The Marklin-bodied Jubilees and the first Northampton production (5701, Conqueror) certainly have the external plate wheels. The second batch of Northampton made Jubilees (5712, Victory) I am pretty sure had eared washer wheels. The silver A4s were advertised new in 1936. The publicity photo shows external plate driving wheels. The example in the Brighton Toy & Model Museum (production serial number: 1) has eared washer wheels. Of course, matters are complicated by the ease of swapping mechanisms, and by the possibility that batches of otherwise identical models made a year apart might have been factory fitted with different wheels. But I’ll say 1936 for the change-over.

The switch to the eared washer system also saw different wheel castings come into use (more spokes) and a new, finer, wheel standard — specifically smaller flanges. I suspect the switch to the short link couplings was made at the same time. Essentially, a package of refinements all tending towards more accurate representation.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

The switch to the eared washer system also saw different wheel castings come into use (more spokes) and a new, finer, wheel standard — specifically smaller flanges. I suspect the switch to the short link couplings was made at the same time. Essentially, a package of refinements all tending towards more accurate representation.

Thank you Martin, that is most helpful. The archaeological evidence from my own modest collection would tend to support this conclusion. Incidentally, I did (perhaps unwisely) bid on and win that Mogul, the SR 2-6-0 - I haven't got it yet, but it should be on the way. I will let you know how it goes once it turns up. If it is a Bing mechanism then I should have a key (!).

John

 

[40057]

Hi John

Congratulations on the mogul!

Whatever their short-comings as representations of their respective prototypes, the Bassett-Lowke moguls were undeniably important in model railway history. Amongst the first small-scale Northampton-made locomotives, with an ambitious range of variants. Also, in the LMS Stanier live-steam version, surely one of the longest production periods — over thirty years by Bassett Lowke and then again by Corgi. So, a significant model, and — my personal view — the Southern version is possibly the best looking.

The motor should be like this:



(The stub axles and fixing brackets at each end are not original. I don’t know who made these alterations or what model the motor was adapted to fit. The post-factory changes have been very competently carried out).

I am pretty sure this type of motor was first used in the Bing-made Prince of Wales 4-6-0 model. For the moguls, the mech was adapted by riveting on frame extensions at the rear, as seen above. It’s a direct wind, so hard work. Powerful motor though.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

Thank you Martin. That looks like my Key! (came with my Precursor).

John

 

[John R Smith]

Hmm. Just thinking out loud, really, but it has just struck me what a pity it is that Bassett-Lowke engines (at least) do not have serial numbers. Perhaps a number with a letter prefix, which would have been a date code. How helpful that would have been when it comes to dating a particular example and sorting out production runs. The models themselves do have a catalogue code (marked on the box end) but no individual ID.

For examples from other obsessions which I have collected in the past - Gibson and Martin guitars (and most others) do have serial numbers, which are more or less helpful for dating purposes. 19th Century Martins have no serial number, but do usually have a date pencilled underneath the top. Omega watches have two serial numbers, one on the movement and another stamped on the inside of the case, all well documented. Classic Hasselblad cameras have serial numbers on the body, another on the film magazine, and yet another on each lens (there is also an excellent Compendium for Hasselblad, which is what we need for B-L). And even my vintage racing bicycles do now and then have serial numbers, especially Masi (completely opaque, but sort of dateable) and Pogliaghi too.

So today's puzzle is - the fabled (and very rare) B-L LNER B17 4-6-0, named as both "Arsenal" and Melton Hall". Apparently introduced in 1936, first catalogued in 1937, and never reintroduced after the War. As it is right on the cusp of our wheel centre change, and a brand new model exactly then, why do all the examples I can find online which seem to be unmolested and authentic have the earlier style 16 spoke external plate wheels?

John

 

[40057]

Hmm. Just thinking out loud, really, but it has just struck me what a pity it is that Bassett-Lowke engines (at least) do not have serial numbers. Perhaps a number with a letter prefix, which would have been a date code. How helpful that would have been when it comes to dating a particular example and sorting out production runs. The models themselves do have a catalogue code (marked on the box end) but no individual ID.

For examples from other obsessions which I have collected in the past - Gibson and Martin guitars (and most others) do have serial numbers, which are more or less helpful for dating purposes. 19th Century Martins have no serial number, but do usually have a date pencilled underneath the top. Omega watches have two serial numbers, one on the movement and another stamped on the inside of the case, all well documented. Classic Hasselblad cameras have serial numbers on the body, another on the film magazine, and yet another on each lens (there is also an excellent Compendium for Hasselblad, which is what we need for B-L). And even my vintage racing bicycles do now and then have serial numbers, especially Masi (completely opaque, but sort of dateable) and Pogliaghi too.

So today's puzzle is - the fabled (and very rare) B-L LNER B17 4-6-0, named as both "Arsenal" and Melton Hall". Apparently introduced in 1936, first catalogued in 1937, and never reintroduced after the War. As it is right on the cusp of our wheel centre change, and a brand new model exactly then, why do all the examples I can find online which seem to be unmolested and authentic have the earlier style 16 spoke external plate wheels?

John

Hi John

I agree, all the photos of B17s I can recall have external plate driving wheels.

I did say circa 1936.

I guess there was one batch of B17 models made. In 1936. Then included in the catalogue until sold out.

Why don’t B/L locos have serial numbers? Ah, but they do. Not the mass produced tab and slot types. But the individually hand-assembled, superior, types. Prior to WW2, the Duchesses, A4s, Jubilees etc all have a serial number. It can be very difficult to find, but it should be there somewhere. See my post #695.

There is also a relevant discussion about serial numbers here:

Silver King locomotive LNER 2511 (Bassett-Lowke 4606)

www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk

And here’s what you are looking for, in this case on a Gauge 1 Royal Scot, but it’s the clearest photo I have:



The number is usually on the underside of the D-shaped coupling at the rear of the loco for 0 gauge tender locos. However, I was once shown the serial number on a dismantled A4 undergoing restoration and the number (also 3, as it happens) was on an internal plate and would have been completely invisible if the loco had been in running condition.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

Thank you, Martin, all extremely interesting and very helpful. If anyone should write the definitive Bassett-Lowke Compendium, it must be you.

Just to pursue this line of enquiry one stage further - of course, we don't know whether the electric and clockwork motors changed their wheel centres to the eared type simultaneously. In any case, there must have been a lag while existing stocks were used up. So I would suppose that it is possible that the electric and clockwork versions of a particular loco might have had different wheel centres for a time?

John

 

[40057]

Thank you, Martin, all extremely interesting and very helpful. If anyone should write the definitive Bassett-Lowke Compendium, it must be you.

Just to pursue this line of enquiry one stage further - of course, we don't know whether the electric and clockwork motors changed their wheel centres to the eared type simultaneously. In any case, there must have been a lag while existing stocks were used up. So I would suppose that it is possible that the electric and clockwork versions of a particular loco might have had different wheel centres for a time?

John

Hi John

There’s a B17 in the next Vectis sale with eared washer type driving wheels. It has been professionally restored so the mechanism may not be the original.

Martin

 

[40057]

I added the ‘stone’ string course to my wall this morning. It’s a single length of 4 mm square section walnut bought from Cornwall Model Boats. It’s painted with ‘Cotswold Dark Stone’ (Precision Paints):





I need to cover the heads of the moulding pins and fill in a few gaps where the string course isn’t a perfect fit with the brick work. Also cover a few areas of shiny residue where the wood glue seeped out along the join. But it’s securely fixed and straight.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

Hello Martin

The wall is looking good.The string course and coping will finish things off very nicely.

There’s a B17 in the next Vectis sale with eared washer type driving wheels. It has been professionally restored so the mechanism may not be the original.

Hmmm. So you noticed it too . . . the clockwork motor does look very clean for a 1936 mech, and we don't know what else might be changed. The snag with these is that being scarce, every B-L collector in the known universe will be homing in on it like a shoal of Piranhas. Nice looking loco though, but a very high starting price.

A big box has just arrived for me from Vectis, so the SR Mogul should be here as we speak.

John

 

[Fitzroy]

I have noticed that very roughly around the time Bassett-Lowke changed from bossplate to washer type quartering they were also changing from horseshoe magnet to block magnet Permag motors, and sideplates with plain rectangular cutouts to the H-shaped cutouts to allow changing brushes more easily. I assume because they did batch production, and they had partially completed subassemblies of all kinds for different production jobs, that explained the combination oddities that appeared such as many B17s with bossplate wheels, and bossplate wheels with block magnets, or block magnets and rectangular sideframe cutouts. This is not the thing you would see in high volume production, but definitely something I've seen in the aircraft industry, or low volume CKD car assembly where many different build standards are allowable as long as they function correctly and the customer will take them.

 

[40057]

I have noticed that very roughly around the time Bassett-Lowke changed from bossplate to washer type quartering they were also changing from horseshoe magnet to block magnet Permag motors, and sideplates with plain rectangular cutouts to the H-shaped cutouts to allow changing brushes more easily. I assume because they did batch production, and they had partially completed subassemblies of all kinds for different production jobs, that explained the combination oddities that appeared such as many B17s with bossplate wheels, and bossplate wheels with block magnets, or block magnets and rectangular sideframe cutouts. This is not the thing you would see in high volume production, but definitely something I've seen in the aircraft industry, or low volume CKD car assembly where many different build standards are allowable as long as they function correctly and the customer will take them.

Hi Pieter

I’m sure, as you say, batch production was the norm for the more expensive, hand-built, catalogued models. And very possibly only a single batch made for models like the B17, or for each of the two iterations of the Jubilee (5701, then 5712) produced at Northampton. Which does again raise the question: how many in the batch? I am sure I have seen somewhere Mr Bassett-Lowke writing of ‘a new batch of models in hand at the works’ or words to that effect. A related question is to what extent tooling was produced for the hand-assembled soldered models. For a series like the silver A4s, I assume the six were effectively six scratch builds. But the main body of the Stanier 4000 gal tender was clearly a machine pressing. The smoke box front is the same part as used on the tab and slot models. I think there must have been tooling for cabs, fireboxes etc for, say, the Duchess and Stanier 2-6-4T models. The Royal Scot, even the rebuilt version, always used the cab and platform, footsteps etc made as per the original lithographed model. And the Royal Scot was less expensive than other similar sized soldered construction models, presumably due to more parts being produced using press tools.

Martin