RM Web

AJC

Western Thunderer
Since the Fotopics debacle a few years ago, I now treat anything posted online or in the cloud as temporary. Prompted by the RMweb goings on I've just bought an external 1tb SSD hard drive to back up my Google photos account. It could also fail in time but at least that's two copies I have.

As my digital preservation colleagues will tell you, *anything* online or electronic is ephemeral. CDRs fail routinely (they have a life of perhaps 20 years), hard drives are probably better, but they're poor compared to decent paper and require regular backups and effort: they can't necessarily do the same thing, of course so it's a choice we make.

A slightly different point is that it's also why the regularly repeated mantra that we should digitise everything (in archives and libraries) and that is a Good Thing is extremely problematic. It's not a one-off operation and has substantial associated costs.

Adam
 
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Renovater

Western Thunderer
As my digital preservation colleagues will tell you, *anything* online or electronic is ephemeral. CDRs fail routinely (they have a life of perhaps 20 years), hard drives are probably better, but they're poor compared to decent paper and require regular backups and effort: they can't necessarily do the same thing, of course so it's a choice we make.

A slightly different point is that it's also why the regularly repeated mantra that we should digitise everything (in archives and libraries) and that is a Good Thing is extremely problematic. It's not a one-off operation and has substantial associated costs.

Adam
That requires thinking about. I wonder what chances my digital images have compared to my old photos from fifty odd years ago !
 
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Rob Pulham

Western Thunderer
The main problem is keeping it on "current" media.

When I worked for the local authority before I retired. We had to legally keep Social Care data about Children for 80 years. Much of that was on tape drives (remember those!).

Over time as new media types are invented, someone needs to remember to transpose all the historical data onto the new media to enable them to be read. No point having 80 years worth of data if there isn't a reader capable of reading it in 20 years time let alone 80.
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
The main problem is keeping it on "current" media.

When I worked for the local authority before I retired. We had to legally keep Social Care data about Children for 80 years. Much of that was on tape drives (remember those!).

Over time as new media types are invented, someone needs to remember to transpose all the historical data onto the new media to enable them to be read. No point having 80 years worth of data if there isn't a reader capable of reading it in 20 years time let alone 80.

Or even ten years - how many 3.5" disc drives are there out there? And how many discs?

Adam
 

76043

Western Thunderer
As a photographer working in a UK museum, anyone that tells you film will outlast digital images is a charlatan and has never seen black & white acetate film deteriorate because of 'vinegar symdrome' or the bad version of kodachrome. All photographic material be that film or digital needs to be looked after properly with a preservation strategy in place.
Tony
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
The British Film Institute/National Film Archive have had to keep all manner of hardware working in order to maintain access to all the tape material they have in their possession. (Or at least they did up until when I retired. The situation may have changed, of course). They were also maintaining a copy of every hour of TV made - an impossible situation now, I suspect and I understand that was a reaction to the loss of so many historic programmes which were wiped to allow the (extremely inexpensive) tape to be re-used. All the recording was one on, at the time, state of the art 1" tape machines which had replaced the 2" machines some time previously, but they had to maintain some 2" machines for early archive subjects. The down side of tape is that it should be rewound head to tail at least every 18 months to keep it in good condition, and if there's a wish to use many of the early archived tapes there's a "one shot" opportunity because the oxide layer falls off as it goes over the replay head.

Digital media is another barrel of worms but is probably more stable than tape - time will tell. And then what format should you record in?

As for the longevity of film, of course it's not bullet proof and under poor storage conditions will deteriorate but so will electronic media. However, vinegar syndrome is a relatively rare characteristic and as for the bad version of Kodachrome - never heard of it. Was that Kodachrome I, II or X - I have examples of all which are as good as the day they left the lab. On the other hand Ektachrome has always been a poor keeper.

Three strip Technicolor prints also have a long shelf life, although later Eastmancolor prints had poor dark storage. That was the reason for the recommendation that any feature film should have three black and white separations made.

Brian
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Following on from what Brian has said - (he's the film expert) - I remember Ann Hanford, the Head BBC Librarian in the 1980s, saying that the archiving of video tape was the bane of her life since, because of loss of magnetism and oxide shredding, archived video tapes had to be copied on to new tapes on a regular basis to maintain the archive. The same was a requirement for sound tapes as well. Modern - at that time - film negative was the best material for the archivist because of its long term stability and the relatively easy provision of suitable storage conditions. Also film stores the actual image so making reproduction a relatively simple exercise.

I also remember one representative of a magnetic tape producing company saying that one of their main problems with storage was oxidisation of the magnetic layer. When the tape was slit to width from the original wide sheets in production, the oxide layer was left exposed at the edges and the oxide effectively started rusting from these edges. It could become a major problem with narrow tapes like DAT and cassette.

We will have to wait and see what our modern digital media does for long term storage. CD and DVD are not wonderful and relying on long term storage of a magnetic signal might be questionable. I read once that the ideal storage medium might be printing a digital signal on paper and storing that - we've had literally thousands of years experience storing paper. :)

Jim.
 

Lancastrian

Western Thunderer
From my experience, Memorex video tape was the worst for oxide shedding and also "white powder" syndrome, hence the infamous BBC Christmas tapes, White Powder Christmas and Good King Memorex. 2" tape wasn't too bad in general from the likes of Ampex or 3M, and as you had control of tip penetration you could align the heads so that you minimised any scuffing of the tape. When helical scan 1" tape machines were introduced you lost that feature, although it was easier and quicker to line up a machine, especially C-format Ampex VPR-2's.

I remember when Main Block VT went over to the D3 format, and I told management that TV News needed to get a couple of machines for transfering material for editing onto Beta-SP. Suffice to say, Rob Bonnet appeared one night with material for Breakfast News on D3 and we couldn't transfer it. The next day we had a D3 machine.

I always enjoyed doing a 35mm film transfer though on a Rank-Cintel MkII telecine machine with a seperate magnet track (SEPMAG) run on a Schlumberger, synchronised to the film.

Vinegar syndrome comes about due to film being stored in warm and humid, causing the gelatin emulsion layer to deteriorate, which produces the vinegar aroma when opening a can of film. At least it isn't as bad as nitrate film which basically can go BANG if not stored properly.


Ian
 
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oldravendale

Western Thunderer
oooh, I can hardly contain my enthusiasm.

I suspect I’ve become Victor Meldrew before my time, but Bruce had it right “fifty seven channels and there’s nothing on”
Yep! It seems inconceivable but that was the case. It's at least 15 years ago now and with the burgeoning of TV channels I'll bet the responsibility has passed to the programme makers..... but I may be wrong.

I retired and walked away so no longer have any contacts in the business.

Brian
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
As almost all the channels are regurgitating repeats, I suspect they don’t need to keep a copy.

I have thousands of digital images stored. Thing is, while I’d be a bit miffed if I lost them due to digital corruption, I don’t actually go back and review most of them. If they went, well, so be it. I’ll have to set about taking new pictures instead.
 

76043

Western Thunderer
Vinegar syndrome isn't rare, all acetate based film can suffer from it. Keeping it frozen is the only way to halt it and it can spread to good stock too. There's plenty of info the IPI website.


I was told about the Kodachrome issue by a photographic conservator, I assumed they knew their onions.

Tony
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
This will be my last post on the subject. However.....

I was working for Kodak when vinegar syndrome first occurred. There is no doubt as you say, Tony, that once it's happened it will spread to other films in the vicinity. However it is certainly not necessary to keep acetate film frozen. During my 45+year career I saw a large number of film vaults, and apart from those at the BFI none were even air conditioned, although all were cool and dry. None of those vaults ever suffered vinegar syndrome.

I also stand by my assertion that Kodachrome, along with three strip Technicolor, is the most stable of the colour emulsions due to the unique chemistry involved in creating the image and that is based on years as a film technician and later in film processing.

In short the IPI have a valid position. To guarantee that film will not degrade freezing is an answer, but even in such a situation considerable care over the material will be necessary especially when trying to bring it back to "normal" conditions for use in view of the effects of condensation.

Consider the situation this way. Digital and analogue video images are capital intensive if one wants to replay them at any time in the future. Film is revenue expensive - costs are high at origination but you can take a film from last week and print it on equipment made many years ago so is , in that respect, more accessible and less capital intensive. Both require some sensible care in storage.

Although my background is in film I've not used a film camera in years and use digital exclusively. I have no axe to grind.

Line under.

Brian
 

NHY 581

Western Thunderer
Thanks Jordan for posting that. The thread was heading towards "have a moan about RMweb" and, like I'm sure many others, I'm here to make stuff and broaden my knowledge base. Please leave all baggage of experiences of other forums at the door.

Given the volume of abuse and general unpleasantness that can be directed in a mods direction, I think a very thick skin would be essential. I'm not surprised at times that responses need to be robust. My view is that what you get out of a forum is linked to what you put in to it.

There's no way on earth I'd take a job as a forum moderator, particularly on a large forum, it's a thankless task. There's hardly an action you can take that won't upset someone. Add to that being held responsible for the actions of your employer and web hosts... Nope definitely not for me.


The human element is oft forgotten regarding any forum. However we shouldn't lose sight that in very simplistic terms, we go to our chosen forum and there it is, day in, day out.

When it's not, for some it's a real drama as a forum can play a huge part in someone's well-being, depending on their personal circumstances. For a few, it was a catastrophe when Rmweb disappeared.

When it returned, sans photos, for those with photo heavy threads, it was somewhat demotivating. I have all my photos saved in various places but to repopulate the thread was a considerable, time consuming task. In my case 7 years of sometimes daily images. For many of the posts, context was lost without supporting images.

Some members were genuinely heartbroken . For them the social interaction built up over years of building their threads was undermined, memories lost. You could sense their sadness in their questions, the whole essence of their threads seemingly gone for good.

I have now dropped in most of mine from the last 12 months and await the return of those outside this period. However many yhat may be.

The work that must have gone into the transfer of data and the rebuild must have been considerable and I can't begin to imagine the stress involved for all concerned. The reaction of most and the support offered was heartening but there were a number of whingers who couldn't see past their own needs and expectations.

Some sought to hold those responsible for managing Rmweb. For what ? There were months of issues being addressed with the web host/ providers. No one sat back and let this happen from Rmweb's point of view. To suggest this was a particular invidual's fault was frankly loathsome and unwelcome.

It's back now, a touch battered and shell shocked but it's back...........

Rob
 

adrian

Flying Squad
I remember when Main Block VT went over to the D3 format, and I told management that TV News needed to get a couple of machines for transfering material for editing onto Beta-SP. Suffice to say, Rob Bonnet appeared one night with material for Breakfast News on D3 and we couldn't transfer it. The next day we had a D3 machine.

I can't remember if I've posted this previously but this reminded me of an article where they recovered some of the original Lunar photos. Basically they didn't take photos and return the film to earth but had a lunar orbiter with a builtin developer system which then moved the 70mm film over a sensor - basically faxing the image back to earth.

The restoration of the old tapes was quite a tale - resurrecting old machines in a disused McDonalds restaurant!

 
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